Playing with other dogs - opinions needed

[Nordika]

Once a week my pup (since 3 months old, now 4 months) gets to play with this 4yo Malamute/GSD mix. My dogs have always had other dogs to play with, unfortunately our Newfoundland passed just a few weeks after we got this puppy. She was patient and kind, very tolerant and was never rough.

I'm not liking this play. There's no running, chasing etc. It's basically non stop physical contact, like watching a wrestling match and more or less a game of domination. While this dog does sometimes try to be gentle, he isn't. I don't really think there is a benefit to this type of play, it doesn't tire my pup out, it leaves him jacked up and unmanageable for about an hour. Walks on leads together is fine, and I think I'd prefer to leave it at walks only. I don't know anyone with calm dogs, they have huskies or hunting dogs. Is playing with other dogs necessary?

 

[BGpa]

I'd say: trust your gut.

From my experience with a lot of rescues and big dogs, you do have to watch closely as things can escalate out of nowhere. Imagine trying to separate these two in a fight.

If it were another juvenile, evenly matched, it would be useful. As it is, your dog is being used as an exercise device. And it doesn't read like play to me but rather domination.

Doberman males can become same sex aggressive, to a greater degree than other breeds. If your boy snaps he could be seriously hurt by the bigger dog that doesnt seem to have boundaries including letting up on puppies or juveniles as needed.

And then he'll really be fear reactive.

If your boy is being forced to submit every time, like you say...thats not healthy exercise but something else.

Dobermans dont need to be social like hunting dogs. They aren't sled dogs that naturally compete to be head dog in the traces. Dobermans are watchers and deciders, and family guardians, as mastiffs.

Sheperds are bred to go run out and kill the wolf. Your dobe barks to tell you about the wolf.

As you know, they bond to their human and as adults become more reserved with other people and dogs as they socially mature.

Walking side by side on trail getting sniffies as a pack would be much better. Then you and the other owner are showing leadership and whats ok and whats not.

 

[JanS]

I would keep it to leash walking with some training at the same time. You don't want your pup to become submissive or aggressive around other dogs after being bullied as a youngster. I'm not saying the other dog is bullying him but many other breeds have a different way of playing and it can get too rough.

 

[Two Dobes]

Just the photo and your comment that you don't like that type of play, says it's a good idea to stop that. Sorry you lost your Newfie
I have had pairs for years now; but our very first Dobe we used to take to the dog park....maybe 3 times; until I saw that he was getting bullied because he was not a year yet....I stopped the dog park thing because people there ( where I was) did NOT watch their own dogs....
I agree with what's been said; walking with the other on 'sniffaries' is a great thing for them both!

 

[Sunje]

We were hoping to get a baby sister for our boy this past spring, but health issues have gotten in the way. Maybe in a couple years. I know my boy would love to have a playmate, and I was able to find a couple to let him play w/ regularly while he was young, but he hasn't had anyone to play w/ for the last couple years. We have an off-leash run daily, plus toy-throwing in the basement (as the fenced yard is a potty area and not a large yard), and I try to keep up w/ obedience training, which helps work his mind.

Different breeds have vastly different play styles, and it sounds like this is more a dominance thing w/ the older dog rather than actual play. Have you had your boy in a basic puppy obedience class? That might be a good way to find other similar age puppies for him to have playdates with.

 

[Ravenbird]

We have a rule at our house that if one dog is not having fun we call it off. We don't wait for them to "work it out". Play should be fun for both dogs and as soon as one dog is being bullied or being a bully or one dog is trying to escape, we call it off. In my case my 3 month old puppy was dominating the 6 year old resident dog, and being relentless about playing rough. In a normal situation the elder dog should put a warning on the pup of "enough", but she wouldn't, so we did. Until my puppy was old enough to be called off reliably, we just stopped the play. Fast forward 6 years and they get along great (two females), occasionally zoom together, but never have contact play-fights. However, as others have mentioned, different breeds have different ways of playing and the first time Asha ever got to play with another doberman it was like she'd been waiting all her life to get to play the way she dreamed of playing and the other Doberman was the same!

Asha at 6 months with her 6 year old Dutchie "sister". Always on top, always pushing, always making Reckless uncomfortable.




Video is Asha (brown collar) at 6 years playing with a year-old Dobe puppy. Lots of bite-face and boxing but also play bows and taking turns chasing and being chased. Neither dog was uncomfortable.

 

[Spocksdad]

Like the others have advised, trust your gut. You can tell if your puppy is enjoying the play or not. Most of our boy Neo's off-leash playmates have been females, but we found several compatible male dogs that he plays with. His best buddy, Dash the Dalmatian, was his most compatible playmate. Neo being 3 y/o neutered and Dash a high-energy (like Neo) 1 y/o unneutered boy. Video below was their first playdate off-leash in Dash's backyard where the youngster gave Neo a run for his money! They had met and played while on walks in his front yard on leash. I did separate Neo once when he tried to pin Dash down by the neck briefly- not allowed! You can also tell too-rough play by vocal escalation. Neo got to play with Dash several more times after he was neutered and their play style was the same, all tiring out quickly after 15 minutes! Sadly, Dash's family moved away last year from neighborhood.

 

[Nordika]

We have a rule at our house that if one dog is not having fun we call it off. We don't wait for them to "work it out". Play should be fun for both dogs and as soon as one dog is being bullied or being a bully or one dog is trying to escape, we call it off. In my case my 3 month old puppy was dominating the 6 year old resident dog,

This. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. My pup is the problem. He's the pick of the litter, front of the pack, first to do, courageous, etc. He's extremely high drive, high energy, and dominant, boy doesn't have an off switch, Yet. He will not take a clue when the adult tells him you're out of bounds, which is the showing of teeth, snap/snarl, you know, perfectly reasonable. The adult dog, his name is Butters, finds his only escape is into the water. Butters is a good dog, he's a bit soft, the pup dominates him completely until Butters knocks the pup down and pins his head down under his chin. He doesn't use his teeth, just his body, but still, I think this isn't going well and worry he is going to injure the pup. FYI - These are both my dogs. They are kept separated by a gate in the house. They get separate outings, play, and training. I'm trying to eventually integrate them, for the past month that's been outside daily potty time, pup on leash, and some on leash walking in town and once a week some off leash play time. The off leash time together is the problem. The puppy has good recall so I can call him off...but he goes right back to clobbering Butters. I'm very aware of the potential same sex aggression, we're not there yet as we're still just dealing with a very hyperactive pup. So I don't know if my pup is ever going to settle down, and it may be a case of testing the waters once a month. Sad really, because one of reasons why we added a puppy was to give Butters someone to run and play with and if he could talk, I am sure he'd say we chose poorly . I think I'll try to take them out with just the puppy on his 20' tracking lead, that way I'll have a little control over the intensity and give Butters his breathing room.
I greatly appreciate all the feedback. Sorry that it wasn't more clear in my initial post that my pup was dominating my 4yo.

 

[Ravenbird]

This. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. My pup is the problem. He's the pick of the litter, front of the pack, first to do, courageous, etc. He's extremely high drive, high energy, and dominant, boy doesn't have an off switch, Yet. He will not take a clue when the adult tells him you're out of bounds, which is the showing of teeth, snap/snarl, you know, perfectly reasonable. The adult dog, his name is Butters, finds his only escape is into the water. Butters is a good dog, he's a bit soft, the pup dominates him completely until Butters knocks the pup down and pins his head down under his chin. He doesn't use his teeth, just his body, but still, I think this isn't going well and worry he is going to injure the pup. FYI - These are both my dogs. They are kept separated by a gate in the house. They get separate outings, play, and training. I'm trying to eventually integrate them, for the past month that's been outside daily potty time, pup on leash, and some on leash walking in town and once a week some off leash play time. The off leash time together is the problem. The puppy has good recall so I can call him off...but he goes right back to clobbering Butters. I'm very aware of the potential same sex aggression, we're not there yet as we're still just dealing with a very hyperactive pup. So I don't know if my pup is ever going to settle down, and it may be a case of testing the waters once a month. Sad really, because one of reasons why we added a puppy was to give Butters someone to run and play with and if he could talk, I am sure he'd say we chose poorly . I think I'll try to take them out with just the puppy on his 20' tracking lead, that way I'll have a little control over the intensity and give Butters his breathing room.
I greatly appreciate all the feedback. Sorry that it wasn't more clear in my initial post that my pup was dominating my 4yo.

Oh my goodness, sound exactly like when I brought my puppy home then! Reckless is my housemates dog, so she is not mine, but we live under the same roof. Reckless was being polite, trying not to be bossy to the new pup and in just a week or two Asha had her number. They'd start out running and then Asha would be all over her. As a puppy she wasn't *trying* to be a bully, she just got pushy and found a pushover and we could tell it was making Asha even bolder, and Reckless was obviously not having fun. Anyway I felt terrible for Reckless, she had a perfect only dog home for 6 years, now this monster moved in and pushed her around. So we managed everything. Asha wasn't easy on anyone, and the first truly hard dog I'd ever had, so a learning curve for me too. She basically had to drag a leash in the house for months. You know your dogs so well and take training seriously, I don't think you'll have a problem. End result: Our dogs like each other just fine, they hike together off leash go to trials together, live together with zero problems. We never allowed playing in the house and only allowed playing & zooming together outside for very short bursts. The minute Reckless looked like she wanted to opt out, I called Asha off. With that said, the one thing we never do is leave them together alone, inside or out. If we leave them at home for any reason, one is in and one is outside, or one is in their bedroom and the other has the rest of the house. There has never been any aggression, just rough play on Ashas part, but I take SSA very seriously and now Asha is almost 7 and Reckless is 11, I would never forgive myself if Asha hurt my best friends dog.

 

[BGpa]

This. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. My pup is the problem. He's the pick of the litter, front of the pack, first to do, courageous, etc. He's extremely high drive, high energy, and dominant, boy doesn't have an off switch, Yet. He will not take a clue when the adult tells him you're out of bounds, which is the showing of teeth, snap/snarl, you know, perfectly reasonable. The adult dog, his name is Butters, finds his only escape is into the water. Butters is a good dog, he's a bit soft, the pup dominates him completely until Butters knocks the pup down and pins his head down under his chin. He doesn't use his teeth, just his body, but still, I think this isn't going well and worry he is going to injure the pup. FYI - These are both my dogs. They are kept separated by a gate in the house. They get separate outings, play, and training. I'm trying to eventually integrate them, for the past month that's been outside daily potty time, pup on leash, and some on leash walking in town and once a week some off leash play time. The off leash time together is the problem. The puppy has good recall so I can call him off...but he goes right back to clobbering Butters. I'm very aware of the potential same sex aggression, we're not there yet as we're still just dealing with a very hyperactive pup. So I don't know if my pup is ever going to settle down, and it may be a case of testing the waters once a month. Sad really, because one of reasons why we added a puppy was to give Butters someone to run and play with and if he could talk, I am sure he'd say we chose poorly . I think I'll try to take them out with just the puppy on his 20' tracking lead, that way I'll have a little control over the intensity and give Butters his breathing room.
I greatly appreciate all the feedback. Sorry that it wasn't more clear in my initial post that my pup was dominating my 4yo.

Oh thats a lot of good context, thank you...! that will teach me again what a USMC gunny taught me long ago about ASS-U-ME...

I have a bunch of stories about Bonnie at the dogpark as a puppy-juvenile, including essentially being taken in by a couple of older French Mastiffs who basically adopted her, both protecting from other too rough dogs, plus teaching her all the ground work for Ultimate Fight Club....wrestling, dog jiu jitsu... that stood her in good stead play fighting with a big dobe male, couple Mals, Pitty's, Boxers, Huskies, seems like the dogs with "big play energy" find one another, and play so rough it scares owners who dont know the breed.

Now she has matured to a Proper Young Lady she know longer puts up with random dog play...Social Maturity explained by a Scottish K9 trainer on FB was making the rounds a few months ago, explained it well. So if we go to Dog Park or Beach, its much more selective, and much less play....mostly me telling her to leave it, and me chasing off the knucklehead pup that cant or wont read the room. I've read somewhere, and maybe the experts can confirm; once a dobe realizes its power, they can become a bully...

 

[BGpa]

Oh thats a lot of good context, thank you...! that will teach me again what a USMC gunny taught me long ago about ASS-U-ME...

I have a bunch of stories about Bonnie at the dogpark as a puppy-juvenile, including essentially being taken in by a couple of older French Mastiffs who basically adopted her, both protecting from other too rough dogs, plus teaching her all the ground work for Ultimate Fight Club....wrestling, dog jiu jitsu... that stood her in good stead play fighting with a big dobe male, couple Mals, Pitty's, Boxers, Huskies, seems like the dogs with "big play energy" find one another, and play so rough it scares owners who dont know the breed.

Now she has matured to a Proper Young Lady she know longer puts up with random dog play...Social Maturity explained by a Scottish K9 trainer on FB was making the rounds a few months ago, explained it well. So if we go to Dog Park or Beach, its much more selective, and much less play....mostly me telling her to leave it, and me chasing off the knucklehead pup that cant or wont read the room. I've read somewhere, and maybe the experts can confirm; once a dobe realizes its power, they can become a bully...

My point being, @Nordika is it sounds like you are doing all the right things, and it just takes time.
Somewhere I read that for the dobe boys its like...all the work and training ..."knuckleheads forever? .."
you wonder...then one day their brains come in, and suddenly it is all worth it.

 

[Two Dobes]

Like the others have advised, trust your gut. You can tell if your puppy is enjoying the play or not. Most of our boy Neo's off-leash playmates have been females, but we found several compatible male dogs that he plays with. His best buddy, Dash the Dalmatian, was his most compatible playmate. Neo being 3 y/o neutered and Dash a high-energy (like Neo) 1 y/o unneutered boy. Video below was their first playdate off-leash in Dash's backyard where the youngster gave Neo a run for his money! They had met and played while on walks in his front yard on leash. I did separate Neo once when he tried to pin Dash down by the neck briefly- not allowed! You can also tell too-rough play by vocal escalation. Neo got to play with Dash several more times after he was neutered and their play style was the same, all tiring out quickly after 15 minutes! Sadly, Dash's family moved away last year from neighborhood.

Love the name "Dash"....and it is a perfect name for him!!! Sorry he's moved away.

 

[Nordika]

My point being, @Nordika is it sounds like you are doing all the right things, and it just takes time.
Somewhere I read that for the dobe boys its like...all the work and training ..."knuckleheads forever? .."
you wonder...then one day their brains come in, and suddenly it is all worth it.

Unfortunately, that knucklehead phase doesn't seem to start to go away until 3-4 years old. Until then, we will just refer to him as psycho puppy . Psycho puppy is entered into his first show in September, it'll be a blast, lol. As of right now he can't hold his stand command longer than 3 seconds...I have some impossible work to do. But it's a baby puppy class and I expect him to just be a spaz.

 

[Ravenbird]

I've read somewhere, and maybe the experts can confirm; once a dobe realizes its power, they can become a bully...

I think this would go for any breed. It's basically how you train confidence in anything. Just like barking at the deliver guy: he approaches the door, dog barks and barks, he turns around and leaves. Dog perceives this as a win and gains confidence to do it again and again and it's always a win. Same with bullying a dog. Get one dog over-powered and it increases their confidence to try it on another and another.

This also reminds me to say that I personally think that SSA is more common if you have 2 very strong confident dogs and neither one is easily dominated. In my situation, Reckless didn't push back, so Asha had no conflict or reason to keep pushing for control. I think the reason for SSA is they so often have another dog which is just as pushy and confident and they are constantly testing each other for weakness. So it's not just bullying for bullying sake, it's vying for a higher rank. If the weaker dog never presents a challenge there is no reason to fight.

 

[BGpa]

I think this would go for any breed. It's basically how you train confidence in anything. Just like barking at the deliver guy: he approaches the door, dog barks and barks, he turns around and leaves. Dog perceives this as a win and gains confidence to do it again and again and it's always a win. Same with bullying a dog. Get one dog over-powered and it increases their confidence to try it on another and another.

This also reminds me to say that I personally think that SSA is more common if you have 2 very strong confident dogs and neither one is easily dominated. In my situation, Reckless didn't push back, so Asha had no conflict or reason to keep pushing for control. I think the reason for SSA is they so often have another dog which is just as pushy and confident and they are constantly testing each other for weakness. So it's not just bullying for bullying sake, it's vying for a higher rank. If the weaker dog never presents a challenge there is no reason to fight.

@Ravenbird Agreed on SSA, and defer to you and others with multiple dobes as the science on this is somewhat limited.

Same Sex Aggression in Dobermans - Desert Harbor Doberman Rescue, citing and summarizing from this:

Characteristics of intrahousehold interdog aggression and dog and pair factors associated with a poor outcome - PubMed

Results suggested that behavior intervention should be provided quickly for IDA pairs with a history of bites that break the skin or uninhibited attacks on sight owing to the high risk for a poor outcome. Owners should be advised to avoid same-sex pairs during preadoption counseling.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

And this one is same vet author speaking more about how it shows up and why.

Sister Dogs–Household Inter-Dog Aggression - GVMA

Authored by Lynne M. Seibert, DVM, MS, PhD, DACVB, Veterinary Behavior Consultants LLC Excerpt from the Georgia Veterinarian Magazine, Summer 2020 Edition It has been reported for household inter-dog aggression that the instigator of aggression is often either the younger dog, or the newer...

gvma.net

This does not apply to @Nordika original question, but since SSA has been mentioned as more common in dobes, I think about it, esp if considering another dog added to household.

Noodling on this further, per your comment @Ravenbird it would make sense from an evolutionary standpoint that one female needs to be highest ranked, as is typical in wolves and any domestic breed closer to wolves as in the husky/malemute group or one based on original selection for guardian/protective tendencies would naturally be expected to have more "wolfy-ness" expressed in behavior....and
To noodle more: Embark is now labelling this characteristic in some of its genetic makeup results...

 

[Ladydi]

At your puppy age….they are little sharks and lack manners.
So use of your longer drag leash is a good idea of yours to maintain good canine citizenship.
Plus those puppy joints are in early stages of development over the first year…..so easy play is best.
Your older dog will thank you….wink wink…wink….

 

[Nordika]

An update after two weeks:
We increased the time together -
On lead walking, obedience work, sit and down stays, close but not close enough to touch. Time in the boat, where play just isn't allowed nor tolerated. Off leash with pup dragging a 20' lead.
Today we had some completely off leash time on the beach and forest and it's 100% better. They chased each other, there were play bows, they shared a stick, and there was just much more calm, and the pup wasn't constantly pestering, gave space and even gave a little lip licking. Major improvement, this approach appears to be helpful so will continue to work on time together so we can all coexist together better

 

[BGpa]

An update after two weeks:
We increased the time together -
On lead walking, obedience work, sit and down stays, close but not close enough to touch. Time in the boat, where play just isn't allowed nor tolerated. Off leash with pup dragging a 20' lead.
Today we had some completely off leash time on the beach and forest and it's 100% better. They chased each other, there were play bows, they shared a stick, and there was just much more calm, and the pup wasn't constantly pestering, gave space and even gave a little lip licking. Major improvement, this approach appears to be helpful so will continue to work on time together so we can all coexist together better
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Great pics and great job. I feel like I'm at risk of being seen as "teaching my grandmother to suck eggs" (anyone remember that old saying?)

But for anyone lurking to learn on dobes ...

These dogs are so smart they really learn fast at this puppy stage if there is clear consistent training and so sensitive especially if its positive and fun.

I was surprised how fast Bonnie aced the CGC and some SD tasks, and that was obvious once I had the benefit of experienced training for ME.

The long line is kind of a PITA but so helpful in enforcing the rules, inc a recall.

Butters looks like he is doing ok, and "what a good dog" he is too. You're a good man for taking him in from that vet who no longer could manage him.

I defer to the more experienced here, but I recall reading before there are a couple normal periods in puppy development when they seem to regress, and that knowledge helped me know its just consistency and making it fun that works, with patience, when they seem to have forgotten stuff they knew.

 

[Nordika]

Great pics and great job. I feel like I'm at risk of being seen as "teaching my grandmother to suck eggs" (anyone remember that old saying?)

But for anyone lurking to learn on dobes ...

These dogs are so smart they really learn fast at this puppy stage if there is clear consistent training and so sensitive especially if its positive and fun.

I was surprised how fast Bonnie aced the CGC and some SD tasks, and that was obvious once I had the benefit of experienced training for ME.

The long line is kind of a PITA but so helpful in enforcing the rules, inc a recall.

Butters looks like he is doing ok, and "what a good dog" he is too. You're a good man for taking him in from that vet who no longer could manage him.

I defer to the more experienced here, but I recall reading before there are a couple normal periods in puppy development when they seem to regress, and that knowledge helped me know its just consistency and making it fun that works, with patience, when they seem to have forgotten stuff they knew.

Thanks.

The puppy, Rollo, is intelligent but not easily trained. He's on par with difficulty as our Catahoula was, but he has so much sass when he disagrees with rules, lol. Training is a lifelong endeavor, I don't think Training can ever be over, with the only exception being our Newfoundland, she was a one and done type of dog with the help of 3 trained adult dogs, she never heard the word No as it was never necessary.

Butters was very easy to train. We've had a total of 6 dogs on the island, 4 being the most we had at one time. He is the only one that has been allowed outside unsupervised and when outside is a livestock guardian to our free-range chickens.