kimbertal kennel

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here's 1 link;
http://www."another board"/breeding-breeders/11936-kimbertal-2-a.html

There used to be another thread, I didn't see it. I choose not to visit the other site much if it all (just a personal preference- not a derogatory comment)....so I'm not sure what happened to the other thread. (nor have I really read much of either of these threads on Kimbertal).

I'd also remember when reading this thread that the environment is different there (again, to each his own....just an observation- not an insult).

And lastly, this subject seemed to get allot of attention, it wouldn't suprise me (not saying this is the case) if someone started a thread just to fire something up here.

I'm not standing up for/putting down Kimbertal, as I've said earlier....I have no experience with them.

-mods, please edit my comment as you see fit- I understand and thank you for the environment you maintain here.
 
Hi Scottr24; I surely didn't mean any critisism of you or even the kennel,I really don't know anything about them other than just if they're producing overly large dogs that may be a red flag as far as lifespan.I was refering to when someone posted that they were going to have puppies, some people were very critical just because they weren't"pro breeders" and my point (that I didn't express very well)was just that I think as long as someone's responsible they have as much right to breed as any "pro breeder".
For me with so many dobes being put down I personally choose to rescue but that doesn't mean I think everyone else should.I enjoy keeping up with Burleysoldiers' posts of his european pup and I'm jealous and admire his responsible attitude toward his pup,I wish every dog could have such a great owner! I know byb'ers are a terrible problem but there are also problems with "pro breeders" that to me are more like puppy mills and I'm sure anyone who's taking the time to visit places like this forum for info are not contributing to the problem.Again I meant no offense and am looking forward to seeing picts of your new pup!!
 
deladobies said:
I think this thread should be closed before it becomes like the other thread on that site!!! What do you think MODS???
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I would hope that true to the rules of the forum everyone will remain civil and the thread shouldn't need to be closed. How will we learn if all controversial threads are closed as soon as they start?

Just my opinion it is up to the Mods and admins how they would like to run the site
 
Everyone has been following the rules so I see no reason to close the thread. People will always have various opinions and as long as they are within the rules, I for one will not lock a thread.

It is up to the puppy buyer to do the research, form their own opinion and make the choice in the long run. They are the one who has to live with that choice.

Not everything is rainbows and halos.
 
Silent and Dobejazz, I agree and I hope that everyone can stay cival here.. I was in no way telling the mods how to run the site, but after reading the post on the other forum I was completly disgusted and didnt want this to turn into a bashing free for all!!
 
But your both right, I should know better that the people on here are not like the others... So i take back my comment on closing the thread!!!
 
Faber;8197][QUOTE=DoberDon said:
Hi Scottr24; .I enjoy keeping up with Burleysoldiers' posts of his european pup and I'm jealous and admire his responsible attitude toward his pup,I wish every dog could have such a great owner!
sorry guys, i'm off topic....:D

Hey Don,

He just put up some pics/update;

http://www.doberman-chat.com/showthread.php?t=423&page=5

Between all the love that pups gettin' and the socializing, that's gonna be one cool dog.
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Faber/DoberDon- Thank you so much guys. I learn alot about taking care of a dobe, being positive with the training, proper diet everything cuz of people like you on this site. You guys truly are dog lovers. I know this is my first dobe but from what I saw on the site I agree that they do have a kind of semi puppy mill thing going. You get a free female if you breed her annd give them the puppies??? What? Just because you can breed good dobes doesnt mean you should breed 1000 a year. I liked the fact that the kennel I was going through only bred a couple times a year. I felt the personal attention for 'grey male' was important to me. Also the careful selection of the 2 dogs based on sound medical exams as well as they were both proven in the show ring and bitesport (schutz etc). I had 5 million questions for them (felt awful but I was bringing him in from Slovenia) and the more I asked the better I felt. I also didn't hear or read a single negative thing on the 'net about Kennel, Dam or Sire. Same just cannot be said here.

:nono::nono:
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I think the most important thing when you get dogs from anywhere is the health. Knowing know what I know, which I didnt know before... I would ask to see anything regarding the parents and other litters health. Because it doesnt seem to matter where you get your dog as long as it is hopefully healthy. I know breeders who do not test their dogs for anything that charge $2000 for their dogs...

I imagine a set up like Kimbertal would have that type of information available. Wonder if you would be able to get answers on that.
 
scottr24 said:
Velmadobe

I can not believe that because someone breeds commercially you think they are not responsible breeders, you can not control how people treat their animals no matter how much paperwork you think you do you are not with that dog all the time, i think it terrific what you did with that dog and look how beautiful he his, and you are great person for taking the time to do that but again i don't think that that is kimbertals fault at all and i don't think because they make a living breeding thats a crime,
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Please feel free to contact me privately - I won't get into all the details on this forum.

In short, if you bring a dog into this world, then you ARE responsible for it for the rest of its life..... and I don't care wha anyone else says - this is the ethics that I live by. When you sell to anyone with the money (or credit card) to pay .... then your first priority is NOT the well being of the dog. They are NOT inanimate objects, and they can suffer for the "breeders" bad choices. I've seen too many K Dobes in rescue to not have an opinion on them.
 
hmmm.... you are aware that anyone with a e-mail address can sell a puppy or anything through paypal? Plus, I'm am confused, don't most breeders accept cash for a puppy? I do believe that is the normal exchange. Isn't one of the qualifications being able to take care of or pay for the puppy? I guess I'm confused here.

It's admirable to promote breeders doing the right thing with their dogs... personally - I would prefer "breeders" sell ALL their puppies spayed or neutered or at least on limited registry's. If the responsible breeders did that - the BYB's would be cut in 1/2 - don't you think? They (BYB'ers) are getting puppies from somewhere - the Champion lines are being bred from someone...

I'm for breeders being legislated as well - any litters and you pay a breeding fee... that would help a lot too to cover the costs of the shelters....
 
Velmadobe said:
Please feel free to contact me privately - I won't get into all the details on this forum.

In short, if you bring a dog into this world, then you ARE responsible for it for the rest of its life..... and I don't care wha anyone else says - this is the ethics that I live by. When you sell to anyone with the money (or credit card) to pay .... then your first priority is NOT the well being of the dog. They are NOT inanimate objects, and they can suffer for the "breeders" bad choices. I've seen too many K Dobes in rescue to not have an opinion on them.
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Checked out your site and Velma is BEAUTIFUL! WOW! I am very impressed VelmaDobe.
 
jstlovesdobes said:
hmmm.... you are aware that anyone with a e-mail address can sell a puppy or anything through paypal? Plus, I'm am confused, don't most breeders accept cash for a puppy? I do believe that is the normal exchange. Isn't one of the qualifications being able to take care of or pay for the puppy? I guess I'm confused here.

It's admirable to promote breeders doing the right thing with their dogs... personally - I would prefer "breeders" sell ALL their puppies spayed or neutered or at least on limited registry's. If the responsible breeders did that - the BYB's would be cut in 1/2 - don't you think? They (BYB'ers) are getting puppies from somewhere - the Champion lines are being bred from someone...

I'm for breeders being legislated as well - any litters and you pay a breeding fee... that would help a lot too to cover the costs of the shelters....
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I'm not quite sure what you are confused about here. Commercial kennels sell for money. Just because someone has the money to pay for a puppy does not make them a good home. I don't think that a breeders responsibility stops when a puppy leaves them. Most bybers get their dogs from other bybers or commercial kennels. It is pretty amazing to start researching the dogs in some of these "kennels" and find just how many of them go back to Kimbertal.

I don't take credit cards or paypal - I do check buyers and I require them to come to my home with kids in tow before I will consider selling them a puppy. I don't ship. If it is too far for me to do a personal home visit before approving them, then I find someone I trust to at least do a drive by of the persons address. I look up county records to check and see if they actually own the home they live in. I call vet references. I do extensive interviews .......... these are the things that a good breeder will do. And then we factor in our gut instinct on whether the person will be a good home. Breeders make mistakes about people sometimes and that is how bybers and greeders get a hold of "champion lines". Selling a dog on limited registration is no guarantee that it won't be bred ....... there are other registries out there that could care less that the dog was sold on an AKC limited registration. For the most part puppy spay neuter is not done because the general concensus is that they should mature some before spay neuter. My contract for limited registration requires spay neuter by the time they are 18 months old. No puppy on full registration left my home with out a co-ownership by myself or my bitches breeder..... none ever will unless I totally trust the person to do the right thing..... trusting someone takes time and someone I just met won't gain that trust.

I am all for reasonable legislation that will put a stop to puppy mills. I don't mind paying a reasonable fee to keep intact dogs, and I already support rescue.

There are a lot of people out there that think a Doberman would be a great dog to have - probably 1/2 of them should not even own a hamster......but someone WILL sell a puppy to them if they have the money to pay.
 
Well MIA I can only go by my own experience/s.
The dog I mentioned was sold to an Attorney and his family. Fenced in yard - 3 kids. They seemed like solid people.... had waited for a puppy to be available... what went wrong? Three boys. Pulled the ears, tails and harassed the puppy in the crate until the dog bite/snarled at them. Then of course they would leave the dog alone, which is the first step in teaching "any dog" aggression. I was never called any point and any contact I had with them - "everything was just great - the puppy was great - everything was just wonderful"..
He finally bit one of the kids and the dog was off to the nut case in Canada to "train" him. The same one that called me and told me to come and get the dog after her father went to kick the dog - missed - hit the wall and broke his foot.
If she hadn't called me - I would have never known about what was going on or where he had ended up. What if they had just gave him to someone?? I would have never heard another thing, would have had no idea....
It's really easy to blame someone when you don't have all the facts...it obviously had to be the breeders fault. Since we are talking about Kimbertal's... do you think for one minute that they knowingly permitted someone to starve one of their dogs nearly to death? Personally - I don't believe it.
In my honest opinion - people paying that kind of money for a dog should honor their contracts - should stay in contact with their breeders - especially if the dog isn't working out or their circumstances change. That isn't how it goes though...I can tell you more stories of breeders that have screamed and threatened law suits to get their dogs back from people... and just exactly what kind of screening do you think should be done? The same as shelters? What is the return rate at shelters? I personally know of a woman in our small area that in the last 6 years has "adopted" and DUMPED at least a dozen dogs that she got from the local shelters and they still adopt dogs to her!
I think the shelters should do a better job of screening and getting a history on dogs as well...
One was adopted to a woman near here - she was told she was the dogs last chance - she adopted the dog... over Christmas the dog bit a childs arm to the bone - the dog was put down. Afterward it was found the dog had a long history of biting....
Now I happen to believe that shelters do a wonderful job for the most part - but again, I'm tired of the propaganda and the finger pointing that is being done - the assumptions that breeders don't care.
There is a small percentage of the population that is permitting dogs to breed - they are worse than the small breeder (BYB) - as bad as the large puppy mills, and as far as I'm concerned are a small scale puppy mill when it comes to the dogs. The dogs are kept chained or in kennels and left in filth. They are permitted to breed and are kept for the puppies they produce... this is where the largest percentage of dogs come from...
 
Well MJ - I agree with just about everything - but the pet stock not leaving spayed or neutered and the money issue. If they are pets - it shouldn't matter. It seems to me to make absolutely certain that the dogs never reproduce, it would be to sell them spayed or neutered. I also agree that the internet has created more problems than most breeders were expecting to have to deal with. And, I have some bad news for you... co-owning will not help you when it comes to AKC. The only place you can walk up and take a dog legally would be at a AKC function... otherwise, you are SOL. According to law they have equal rights to that dog, doesn't matter if your name is first either - I tried that. I have personally been down that road...so, it's not doing you any good to co-own those dogs...especially if you think it gives you the right to just take the dog out of a less than idea situation.

As for the money... breeders sell their stock for money. Now whether they have a conscience or not - it still remains the dogs are sold as stock - for money... That is just a fact you don't seem to enjoy hearing... you make a profit when you sell your dogs, no matter how well placed they are, you still make money or at best it still offsets your expenses... what would your expenses be if you didn't sell a puppy? Didn't breed? See what I mean? Breeders make money... and last of all, if people didn't make money selling dogs - then no one would do it.
 
jstlovesdobes said:
Well MJ - I agree with just about everything - but the pet stock not leaving spayed or neutered and the money issue. If they are pets - it shouldn't matter. It seems to me to make absolutely certain that the dogs never reproduce, it would be to sell them spayed or neutered. I also agree that the internet has created more problems than most breeders were expecting to have to deal with. And, I have some bad news for you... co-owning will not help you when it comes to AKC. The only place you can walk up and take a dog legally would be at a AKC function... otherwise, you are SOL. According to law they have equal rights to that dog, doesn't matter if your name is first either - I tried that. I have personally been down that road...so, it's not doing you any good to co-own those dogs...especially if you think it gives you the right to just take the dog out of a less than idea situation.

As for the money... breeders sell their stock for money. Now whether they have a conscience or not - it still remains the dogs are sold as stock - for money... That is just a fact you don't seem to enjoy hearing... you make a profit when you sell your dogs, no matter how well placed they are, you still make money or at best it still offsets your expenses... what would your expenses be if you didn't sell a puppy? Didn't breed? See what I mean? Breeders make money... and last of all, if people didn't make money selling dogs - then no one would do it.
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I don't understand how anyone can't see the difference between a responsible breeder that produces a few litters for a specific reason (Show dog, working dog) vs a commercial kennel churning out 100's of puppies as a sole source of income with no regard to anything but the almighty dollar. So what if a show breeder breaks even or even profits from a litter if they breed 1 litter every year or less than that they are not supporting themselves breeding dogs.
 
Hmmmmmmmmm, what to say about Kimbertal........their business is selling puppies, their bottom line is to make money off their puppies. For 40 years they have been selling puppies, hundreds of puppies, puppies and dogs living in kennels, now they give dogs away as long as you breed them for Kimbertal and then they have more puppies to sell and they are so happy to make more money, and then, HELL, you can breed them yourself and make money too! DO any of you who condone what Kimbertal is all about, get where I am coming from?
 
DLS said:
Hmmmmmmmmm, what to say about Kimbertal........their business is selling puppies, their bottom line is to make money off their puppies. For 40 years they have been selling puppies, hundreds of puppies, puppies and dogs living in kennels, now they give dogs away as long as you breed them for Kimbertal and then they have more puppies to sell and they are so happy to make more money, and then, HELL, you can breed them yourself and make money too! DO any of you who condone what Kimbertal is all about, get where I am coming from?
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I do!
 
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