Keeping rough play from escalating

[NeuValley]

For the most part I feel extremely blessed that my two pups have been very well behaved. So far, they have been way easier on me than our first Doberman was 8 years ago. With that said I am starting to have an issue that I'm not sure what the best way to stop/correct it is, and I would appreciate any advice or suggestions.

Rocky is now 10 months and Stormy is now 8 months. Rocky has mostly been the submissive one rolling to his back and letting Stormy wrestle around on him (I understand some dominate dogs will take the submissive roll when playing with weaker/smaller dogs). Lately Rocky has quit being so submissive, I suspect this is hormone related. Stormy still thinks she is the boss and if Rocky doesn't submit to her she will start to bite his neck skin and wont let go. Within a second Rocky will start growling and barking. When he gets free he normally will try to snap back.

Whenever this happens in the house we are able to "No!" them(mainly Stormy) and deescalate the situation rather quickly. They have learned that I cannot stop them as easily when they are in the back yard. So after stopping them they both go to the back door and ring the bell to go out. Then they start rough housing again. They will not stop from just verbal commands in the back yard, and they are to far away to use food or toys to try and redirect their attention. I have to go to them, sometimes 120 feet or so away.

Part of what concerns me is that my family has a business trip coming up and we will most likely have to board both dogs. It is near impossible to find a place that takes intact dogs. We found a board and train that will take them the dates that we are gone, but they will be with 2 other dogs when they are let out for breaks. I don't want my dogs fighting each other let alone two other dogs which it is almost guaranteed will be smaller than my Dobes.

Currently the only thing I can think of to correct them effectively and in the moment is an e-collar.

They walk together, can eat together, drink water out of the same bowl at the same time, play fetch together, they are really good together 97.8% of the time. I just need them to quit escalating the play to the point Stormy starts biting...

Thoughts, Advice? Please, Thank you!


The love is real, as they can even share the same chew toy...........

 

[jazzies mum]

Well, at 120 feet away it is hard to get their attention. Is there any way you can cut the yard size down until you have sorted out the problem? Ecollar would work, if used wisely, but there is some opinion that it can escalate aggression as they see the other dog as causing the problem. Others will be more knowledgeable than I am on this problem. If you have a hose with a good spray nozzle that can be adjusted to a long stream, it might break the situation up as it develops. Best that you prepare and wait until precisely the time they start to go over the top and then give a short, well aimed blast. If they can't see you all the better. No doubt at all that they will break apart in confusion and shock and look around for what happened. Don't let them know it was you! and don't laugh, no matter how funny it looks!!!!!! Jazz learn't some respect when doing zoomies close to me by similar use of a water pistol. But they are smart, and the first few times will be your best chance to establish control. Reward immediately for doing the right thing and breaking apart.

There will be many more solutions available and probably better ones, but this is the concept that worked for me. Incidentally it didn't make a water shy dog, and I only used this method to get through to her initially. Now she respects the word "no" whether she thinks I can reach her or not. (most of the time, she is still only 16months!)

I suspect it is just a try-on while a new order is established, but bloodshed should be avoided!

 

[Tropicalbri's]

I had the same issue that escalated to outright fights without drawing blood but it sounded like they were killing each other. When I would rush over and yell (because it gets your adrenaline pumping), it just made it worse. The key is to stop them before they get to the ass eating zone. You have to be a strong leader and use whatever tools available.
I had to do a crate and rotate for 7mo with mine. They are littermates. I would not recommend using the ecollar as that will escalate the aggression.
Do you have any form of irrigation in your back yard? If so then turn it on full bore if you can’t reach them quickly.
If you don’t have irrigation then get a 2 or 3 hook up manifold for your spigot and hook up those hoses with a power nozzle. Mount them on spikes with the nozzle adjusted to a power spray at one end of the yard and at the other side of the yard. When they are out of reach and start the snitting with each other give a firm serious HEY NO and turn on the water. You can even put one of the rainbird sprinkler head on the hoses that will oscillalate with a high blast spray.
Make sure after you get them apart that you make them sit or down next to each other so their last memory of being with each other is a calm and positive experience.
With that much distance (120’) I would cut their access of the yard by half. You can buy a 100’ roll of the orange or black 4’ tall barrier fencing for about $35.
Pound in some rebar to attach barrier fence to and use tie wraps to attach to rebar. Once they learn not to get over amped with each other then you can remove the temporary fence.
Without close supervision when they are together and being a strong pack leader it will only get worse if not corrected now.
Hormones do play a role in the behavior but you have to learn to read their body language and intervene before it even starts to amp up. It’s a lot of work but it pays off in the long run.
As far as boarding, let the board and train know you do not want your dogs around other dogs or alone together unsupervised.

 

[LifeofRubie]

Oof, all too familiar with this scenario!

Our yard is a good size but Rubie is conditioned to a spray bottle (luckily we haven't had to break out the hose!). I also try to always have a chuckit ball in hand so I can entice her off Moo (the 8 month old lab puppy). She too grabs the next skin but has never drawn blood and Moo looooooooooves the rough housing and always goes back for more.

If they're getting too rough, I'll wield the spray bottle or get her attention with the ball. If they're in the house being rough, I'll give them something else to think about like PB Kong's.

 

[NeuValley]

I would love to fence of a portion of the backyard, but I have an insane HOA where I live and would be threatened, then fined for making an unapproved change to the exterior of MY home. I am in the early stages of building so we can move back out of the city limits and have freedom once again.

I do have some sprinklers that i could put out towards the back but may not be able to use them for long if we start getting below freezing over night.

We have used spray bottles in the house. Stormy runs in fear, and Rocky stands there trying to drink it.

 

[WiglWerm]

It's important to remember dobermans play ROUGH!! Mine growl and snap as they body slam and B-slap each other in the face. Sometimes I feel like my neighbors must think I have a dog fighting club in my backward, lol

 

[DD4MSpock]

It's important to remember dobermans play ROUGH!! Mine growl and snap as they body slam and B-slap each other in the face. Sometimes I feel like my neighbors must think I have a dog fighting club in my backward, lol

Is that mostly with fellow dobies or will they roughhouse with other breeds, much to that other breed's dismay? Is there any breed which you'd never pair with a dobie?

 

[LifeofRubie]

Is that mostly with fellow dobies or will they roughhouse with other breeds, much to that other breed's dismay? Is there any breed which you'd never pair with a dobie?

Rubie will roughhouse with ANY dog. Moo has grown up that way and dishes it right back out (but will change his play according to the dog he's with). She also loves to chase and tumble dogs. BUT she will also take a submissive play role with Moo (lay down on her back and let him stand over top of her) which she hasn't done with most other dogs. I think that's an important part of equal and fun play for both dogs.

When Stella the bulldog came to visit, she wasn't too fond of Rubie's play. She was too slow and not agile enough to keep up. Rubie loved all that bulldog skin to grab a hold of, though

A lot dogs to not appreciate it which is partly why we stopped going to the dog park with Rubie.

 

[NeuValley]

It's important to remember dobermans play ROUGH!! Mine growl and snap as they body slam and B-slap each other in the face. Sometimes I feel like my neighbors must think I have a dog fighting club in my backward, lol

I agree. Most Dobes that I've seen playing have wide open mouths with teeth showing, lots of jumping, pawing, and wild beasty noises. Rocky is very controlled with his "biting" when they get rough. However Stormy, not as much. She bites just hard enough that Rocky has had long thin scabs, from her teeth scratching his skin.

I really liked the idea for sending them to a board and train so they wouldn't just be locked up and walked 3 times a day, but it may not be an option if I cant get Stormy to tone it down a level or two...

 

[LifeofRubie]

I agree. Most Dobes that I've seen playing have wide open mouths with teeth showing, lots of jumping, pawing, and wild beasty noises. Rocky is very controlled with his "biting" when they get rough. However Stormy, not as much. She bites just hard enough that Rocky has had long thin scabs, from her teeth scratching his skin.

I really liked the idea for sending them to a board and train so they wouldn't just be locked up and walked 3 times a day, but it may not be an option if I cant get Stormy to tone it down a level or two...

SO... when we board (no training, just boarding), our dogs are in separate kennels but they get play time and potty breaks together.

We were very upfront with the employee's and said they play very rough and if you guys use spray bottles to deter behaviors, please, by all means, use it.

The report when we picked them up was WOW THEY PLAY ROUGH but that they were both enjoying it and the employee's would interfere when they felt they needed to tone it down. I think if you talk to them, they can be made aware of it and perhaps offer some suggestions if they notice it's becoming more than play, etc. That's what you're paying them to do, right?!

Stormy might still be learning bite inhibition so if Rocky isn't correcting her, it's not too much for him - not that it doesn't mean it's not too hard, in general. Do you work on recall with them, a lot? Being able to call them to you when they're rough housing can break it up pretty quick.

 

[WiglWerm]

Rocky is very controlled with his "biting" when they get rough. However Stormy, not as much. She bites just hard enough that Rocky has had long thin scabs, from her teeth scratching his skin.

THIS is my life!! Spike lets Ruby get away with EVERYTHING!! She will chomp on his neck and almost take him down like a wildebeest and occasionally he will yelp...Then he will walk towards her snapping his teeth in the air and she will run backwards laughing. He WILL NOT put her in her place, never has. He has created a monster PITA for himself! lol BUUTTT....then I see him run up to her snapping and slapping, antagonizing her to play....whatcha gonna do, they love to play ROUGH!!

 

[WiglWerm]

Stormy might still be learning bite inhibition so if Rocky isn't correcting her, it's not too much for him - not that it doesn't mean it's not too hard, in general

YESSS!! I DO find more scabs on Ruby than Spike though. Spike uses his front feet A LOT, whereas Ruby is in constant contact with Spikes throat via her mouth. I guess I should be grateful he has a lot of loose neck skin. lol

 

[strykerdobe]

Yes we had major issues when we had two males. Our male Yago we still have with our female, we still have to watch. If play starts to escalate we redirect them to their toys. Or even put them down on their place boards for 5-10min.

 

[LifeofRubie]

THIS is my life!! Spike lets Ruby get away with EVERYTHING!! She will chomp on his neck and almost take him down like a wildebeest and occasionally he will yelp...Then he will walk towards her snapping his teeth in the air and she will run backwards laughing. He WILL NOT put her in her place, never has. He has created a monster PITA for himself! lol BUUTTT....then I see him run up to her snapping and slapping, antagonizing her to play....whatcha gonna do, they love to play ROUGH!!

Yes, this is exactly what we see with our two. Moo will tolerate ANYTHING from Rubie and as soon as she backs off, he's running toward her with front legs out and body slamming. Rubie makes A LOT of noise but hardly ever touches him with her teeth when they're wrestling. If he get's the zoomies, though... Rubie loves to run him down, grab his neck, and tumble him. I think he loves it I'll have to try and get a video of them with good audio. It's truly terrifying sounding.

 

[Tropicalbri's]

have an insane HOA where I live and would be threatened, then fined for making an unapproved change to the exterior of MY home.

When we first moved here from the Virgin Islands after Hurricane Hugo destroyed St. Croix, we lived in “Old Town” Key West. Lots of restrictions since it was the historic district, not to mention all the people and no where to park. We rode bikes everywhere until we finally bought vehicles for us and found our house where we live now. My first requirement for the realtor was no HOA and no immediate neighbors. We lucked out in that 10 lots that surround us are all Tier One (meaning you can’t build on them because they are eco sensitive.)

Code Enforcement tried to write us up for building a fence without permits. My husband built the fence so that it was free standing. He put skis and braces on the back side and we put pearock on top of the bottom brace for weight. Code came on our property and handed me a citation for an illegal fence.
I immediately handed the citation back to him and said; “this won’t fly because our fence is temporary.” He did not understand what I meant and started to get nasty with me. I called the Sheriffs office and said I was being harassed by a code enforcement officer on my private property and needed assistance. That really pissed him off. Deputy arrived and I proved the fence was a temporary free standing structure by literally lifting the fence up to prove nothing permanent was anchored into the ground. Deputy told Code officer he was trespassing and needed to leave my property. Unfortunately it put us on their radar to try and catch us doing improvements without permits. We were sent a certified letter stating they would be inspecting our downstairs enclosure for violations. It cost us $300. for the inspection and they told us we had to remove our work benches because they were not tall enough to be above flood zone level. They were 1/2” too low. They also wrote us up for having a work shop in a residential area because of my hubs tools. He has a lot of large machinery. Drill press, commercial band saw, radial arm saws, welder etc. our power outlets were 1/4” to low on the wall so we had to move them up higher, the Frick’in list was endless. They gave us 1 week to correct it. We wheeled all of Hubs machinery (they were mounted on caster platforms) across the street to our neighbors, I put pallets on top of the work benches and plywood across the pallets making the surface 5” higher. I bought a storage shed and put all my tools in it. Inspection day came and they had no choice but to pass us because we conformed to their rules (temporarily). After inspection we brought back all our equipment and to this day I HATE Code Enforcement!
If we lived in an HOA neighborhood we would be kicked out because of my attitude.
These idiots even made us move our table and chairs to the back yard because being under the house in our carport designates it as an entertainment area which isn’t allowed. WTF?!?

 

[LifeofRubie]

someone can tell me if they think this is too much but this is typical (actually relatively quiet) play around here. There are some neck skin grabs but seems to be in good fun.

Things I look for: are both dogs having fun? Are there little breaks in between to reset? Are they matching play styles?

Moo's zoomies at the end make me think he's having the time of his life! Rubie appreciates he can play rougher now that he's bigger. Luckily we've never had an incident to where it's escalated to any more than this but their play is ALWAYS supervised and Moo is such a sucker for Rubie...

Of course to anyone walking by, it sounds and looks irresponsible

EDIT: Moose is 8 months old and Rubis is almost 3 years old. Also, Moose will change his play style to match. Rubie does not!

 

[Tropicalbri's]

someone can tell me if they think this is too much but this is typical (actually relatively quiet) play around here. There are some neck skin grabs but seems to be in good fun.

Things I look for: are both dogs having fun? Are there little breaks in between to reset? Are they matching play styles?

Moo's zoomies at the end make me think he's having the time of his life! Rubie appreciates he can play rougher now that he's bigger. Luckily we've never had an incident to where it's escalated to any more than this but their play is ALWAYS supervised and Moo is such a sucker for Rubie...

Of course to anyone walking by, it sounds and looks irresponsible

EDIT: Moose is 8 months old and Rubis is almost 3 years old. Also, Moose will change his play style to match. Rubie does not!

That looks like very tame playing to me. I would be afraid to post a picture of my two playing for fear people would get the wrong impression.
Rubie and Moo are having a GRAND time playing. Moo just doesn’t have Rubie agile movements yet.

 

[Regalis]

someone can tell me if they think this is too much but this is typical (actually relatively quiet) play around here. There are some neck skin grabs but seems to be in good fun.

Things I look for: are both dogs having fun? Are there little breaks in between to reset? Are they matching play styles?

Moo's zoomies at the end make me think he's having the time of his life! Rubie appreciates he can play rougher now that he's bigger. Luckily we've never had an incident to where it's escalated to any more than this but their play is ALWAYS supervised and Moo is such a sucker for Rubie...

Of course to anyone walking by, it sounds and looks irresponsible

EDIT: Moose is 8 months old and Rubis is almost 3 years old. Also, Moose will change his play style to match. Rubie does not!

This is a lot like how my two play. Only yours are actually calmer.

Moo just doesn’t have Rubie agile movements yet.

And may not ever labs dont tend to be the most graceful creatures lol

 

[LifeofRubie]

That looks like very tame playing to me. I would be afraid to post a picture of my two playing for fear people would get the wrong impression.
Rubie and Moo are having a GRAND time playing. Moo just doesn’t have Rubie agile movements yet.

I actually hovered over the 'post reply' button for several seconds before sharing. Cuz, you know... the internet.

This is a lot like how my two play. Only yours are actually calmer.

And may not ever labs dont tend to be the most graceful creatures lol

While not as agile, I think he'll have a full 20lbs on her when he's full-grown... that should give him an edge

 

[Regalis]

I actually hovered over the 'post reply' button for several seconds before sharing. Cuz, you know... the internet.



While not as agile, I think he'll have a full 20lbs on her when he's full-grown... that should give him an edge

Hopefully! Kaiser has 20+ pounds and way more agile on the lab. Lab still kicks his ass lol. Lab is like a little dozer/tank. An 82 pound one at that (how the hell that dog weighs 82 pounds is beyond me ... I figured he was low 70's because he's SO thin right now...). And believe it or not, my lab can outrun kaizer. For being so short and stocky, he can really move and corners better. Plus he has more stamina ....

What type of lines is Moo from? Show/euro or more American/field? He kinda looks like my boy who is a weird mix of the two, but obviously got the drive and stamina of the field line. Not as blocky as a the show/eutos but not as narrow as a pure field either ... If so, you're in for lots of fun. Mine is 4 1/2. He hasn't slowed down or really mellowed out at ALL yet. He *looks* like an old man because he's greying a lot, but sure doesn't act like one. I swear he's going to be that 8 year old, solid grey faced dog that still acts like a pup. Kaizer is no slouch, but the lab can outwork him with ease.

Stock up on mental game ideas now if moo ends up like my boy, he will literally beable to run ALL day and still be looking for more.