Interesting short video

[BGpa]

Just for conversation...
Not specifically related to SCH or Prorection Sports per se, but this seems like most apropos spot to drop this in, and note is kind of a summary of comments read here and elsewhere;
"why no dobes in wider LEO use as in past..."

I'm guessing the huge increase in working dogs bred and used by USMIL in the sandbox has had something to do with this...

And all the lessons learned from that on GSD and Malinois to be applied to Police dogs, Border Patrol, etc.

 

[JanS]

I agree with part of this and part of it I don't.

Like I said in another thread, they are no longer using any pointy eared dogs for a good share of DHS because they look too intimidating so they are moving to floppy eared dogs like Labs and GSPs.

 

[Ravenbird]

I agree with all of it.

Single coat canines have trouble working in extreme weather, that's true. My dog gets hot in the sun if there's no shade relief and actually does better when it's cold. But only if she's moving/working/doing. If she has to be still, or down next to me for any length of time she's a shivering mess and will get vocal about how miserable she is.

I don't think their statement about training is accurate for obedience. Almost any Dobe can be trained to high levels of obedience. Protection and any action under pressure takes a different type of Doberman that is not nearly as common. But that would not exclude the average Doberman from doing SAR or any kind of detection/scent work. They ARE sensitive, and many are gun shy/noise sensitive, over-reactive and whine or bark when left on a long down or in a crate in different environments. All K9s have to have excellent nerves regarding these things - meaning indifferent and ignoring it all. The WAE test is a simple review of nerve type for household pet/sport Dobermans and if you can, go watch one and observe. The GSDs and Mals have much larger and diverse working lines to choose from, the Dobermans have evolved into mostly household pets with a tiny pool of working/protection sport dogs, most of which could not stand up to LEO standards. Again SAR and nose work would be the exception, but they are still tested steady nerve, going into tight areas, rubble piles, explosive noises things you would expect in a disaster area.

Health is the number one problem. It takes years to train and develop a military K9 and with it becoming more and more likely that the breed won't live to see 10 and most have health issues of some sort way before then, why would they be considered? I took offense of the video highlighting vWD as an excuse. That disease is easily tested for and can be 100% prevented by breeders in any given litter and Clear or Carrier dogs do not have any health problems related to it, so why bring attention to that? it's not nearly the problem that DCM, cancers and liver or thyroid diseases, non of which can be accurately predicted and all of which are common enough at age 7 or 8 to put off someone choosing a breed to be a lifetime investment as a partner in their career.

I totally agree with @JanS about the pointy ears. That started after 9/11 and all the airport security and since these dogs were working around thousands of John Q Publics, many of whom may have had innocent fear of dogs in general the pointy ear shepherds were passed over for talented beagles and working labs since the didn't "look mean". Dobermans with ears and tails would probably be accepted, but even then red would be better than black for a less threatening look.

All in all, a Doberman in LEO or Military is pretty much a thing of the past. Always there are exceptions, but becoming really rare.

 

[JanS]

All in all, a Doberman in LEO or Military is pretty much a thing of the past.

There are a lot of canine LEOs around here but most are Mals, GSDs or Labs in local towns.

 

[BGpa]

I agree with part of this and part of it I don't.

Like I said in another thread, they are no longer using any pointy eared dogs for a good share of DHS because they look too intimidating so they are moving to floppy eared dogs like Labs and GSPs.

Ya, I saw that and didn't comment then but thats in my opinion a weird almost nannyish "politically correct" to the point of reduced effectiveness in just doing the job. I guess if its a bomb or drug dog checking passengers bags its better to have a golden, lab, or a beagel than a scary big black dog with a crop...

 

[BGpa]

I agree with all of it.

Single coat canines have trouble working in extreme weather, that's true. My dog gets hot in the sun if there's no shade relief and actually does better when it's cold. But only if she's moving/working/doing. If she has to be still, or down next to me for any length of time she's a shivering mess and will get vocal about how miserable she is.

I don't think their statement about training is accurate for obedience. Almost any Dobe can be trained to high levels of obedience. Protection and any action under pressure takes a different type of Doberman that is not nearly as common. But that would not exclude the average Doberman from doing SAR or any kind of detection/scent work. They ARE sensitive, and many are gun shy/noise sensitive, over-reactive and whine or bark when left on a long down or in a crate in different environments. All K9s have to have excellent nerves regarding these things - meaning indifferent and ignoring it all. The WAE test is a simple review of nerve type for household pet/sport Dobermans and if you can, go watch one and observe. The GSDs and Mals have much larger and diverse working lines to choose from, the Dobermans have evolved into mostly household pets with a tiny pool of working/protection sport dogs, most of which could not stand up to LEO standards. Again SAR and nose work would be the exception, but they are still tested steady nerve, going into tight areas, rubble piles, explosive noises things you would expect in a disaster area.

Health is the number one problem. It takes years to train and develop a military K9 and with it becoming more and more likely that the breed won't live to see 10 and most have health issues of some sort way before then, why would they be considered? I took offense of the video highlighting vWD as an excuse. That disease is easily tested for and can be 100% prevented by breeders in any given litter and Clear or Carrier dogs do not have any health problems related to it, so why bring attention to that? it's not nearly the problem that DCM, cancers and liver or thyroid diseases, non of which can be accurately predicted and all of which are common enough at age 7 or 8 to put off someone choosing a breed to be a lifetime investment as a partner in their career.

I totally agree with @JanS about the pointy ears. That started after 9/11 and all the airport security and since these dogs were working around thousands of John Q Publics, many of whom may have had innocent fear of dogs in general the pointy ear shepherds were passed over for talented beagles and working labs since the didn't "look mean". Dobermans with ears and tails would probably be accepted, but even then red would be better than black for a less threatening look.

All in all, a Doberman in LEO or Military is pretty much a thing of the past. Always there are exceptions, but becoming really rare.

Yep, agree @Ravenbird that struck me as odd that they chose vWD and neglected the rest.
The other issue is Dobes reputedly dont switch handlers easily...so if the typical human USMIL team member rotates out to another duty station, or gets disabled as LEO, its not a sure thing the Dobe team member can continue effectively with new teammate.

The bottomline point is still the same:
its not a good investnent for a department or agency to put time and money into a team if the ROI cant be rralized due to an uncertain and short time of deployment. It would be like putting a human LEO candidate thru the academy, training, specialized training, POST to stay current and find out unexpectedly only to have to start all over in 1-3 years of work on the job.

I wonder what the average working time is for healthy lines of GSDs and Mals in basic k9 work?

 

[JanS]

I guess if its a bomb or drug dog checking passengers bags its better to have a golden, lab, or a beagel than a scary big black dog with a crop...

I say let them be a little intimidated. Many people use a certain checkpoint in the hub airport in this state where they have the dogs so it's much faster and they think they can breeze right through. Heck I do it myself since it is so much faster. LOL

 

[JanS]

I wonder what the average working time is for healthy lines of GSDs and Mals in basic k9 work?

I want to say they retire them at 7 - 8 years and I'm sure they have a couple years of training before they start, so probably 5 years of working time.

 

[BGpa]

I say let them be a little intimidated. Many people use a certain checkpoint in the hub airport in this state where they have the dogs so it's much faster and they think they can breeze right through. Heck I do it myself since it is so much faster. LOL

Ya I'd go to the dog line but to say hello...
(Which yes I know is verboten: "working!")

 

[Ravenbird]

All in all, as much as I would like to see the breed "back in business", it's hard to admit, but in this day & age, as a breed, I could no recommend them. As a personal SAR or detection dog, yes. LEO or military, no. As a breed. I'm sure there are individuals that could do it.

 

[BGpa]

All in all, as much as I would like to see the breed "back in business", it's hard to admit, but in this day & age, as a breed, I could no recommend them. As a personal SAR or detection dog, yes. LEO or military, no. As a breed. I'm sure there are individuals that could do it.

Dobes excell at what they were originally bred for: man protector/family guardian. I'm ok with them being indoor dogs like all our others in past.
Now, if I was living in the mtns with livestock I might like a black nosed cur for the day time duty and a black nosed anatolian for the night patrol. Around here pyrs seem to be popular to keep the coyotes out of the chicken coop.
Dogs need a job.

 

[JanS]

if I was living in the mtns with livestock I might like a black nosed cur for the day time duty and a black nosed anatolian for the night patrol.

One of our club members has two Mt. curs and they're both trained for tracking deer and such during hunting season if the hunter can't find them. I wish I would have known her when we lost Della since they might just have been able to find her. Another member has a bunch of Anatolians to protect her large herd of livestock and they take their jobs very seriously.
An old coworker has Pyrenees to guard their sheep and goats.

 

[BGpa]

One of our club members has two Mt. curs and they're both trained for tracking deer and such during hunting season if the hunter can't find them. I wish I would have known her when we lost Della since they might just have been able to find her. Another member has a bunch of Anatolians to protect her large herd of livestock and they take their jobs very seriously.
An old coworker has Pyrenees to guard their sheep and goats.

Sounds like a great functional dog!

Mountain Cur - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[JanS]

Sounds like a great functional dog!

The two on the right are the ones from our club.

 

[BGpa]

Looks like fun!

Total Dog Invitational | United Kennel Club (UKC)

This exciting event is the pinnacle of the UKC Total Dog program and "Dogs That Do More" by showcasing the versatility of purebred dogs. Altered dogs are eligible. The UKC Total Dog Invitational event is the most distinguished event for Total Dogs, giving those hardworking dogs and owners the...

www.ukcdogs.com

 

[BGpa]

Looks like fun!

Total Dog Invitational | United Kennel Club (UKC)

This exciting event is the pinnacle of the UKC Total Dog program and "Dogs That Do More" by showcasing the versatility of purebred dogs. Altered dogs are eligible. The UKC Total Dog Invitational event is the most distinguished event for Total Dogs, giving those hardworking dogs and owners the...

www.ukcdogs.com

Big show in KY in November

Total Dog Invitational | United Kennel Club (UKC)

This exciting event is the pinnacle of the UKC Total Dog program and "Dogs That Do More" by showcasing the versatility of purebred dogs. Altered dogs are eligible. The UKC Total Dog Invitational event is the most distinguished event for Total Dogs, giving those hardworking dogs and owners the...

www.ukcdogs.com

 

[adhahn]

Just for conversation...
Not specifically related to SCH or Prorection Sports per se, but this seems like most apropos spot to drop this in, and note is kind of a summary of comments read here and elsewhere;
"why no dobes in wider LEO use as in past..."

I'm guessing the huge increase in working dogs bred and used by USMIL in the sandbox has had something to do with this...

And all the lessons learned from that on GSD and Malinois to be applied to Police dogs, Border Patrol, etc.

I have a close relative who was the lead Officer of the canine program on a highly professional, well funded Police Department. I've had really educational discussions with him as well as Officers from other departments who were involved in selecting dogs. Because of these connections I'm able to provide some information on why Dobermanns are not being used.

First off, the video is largely nonsense.

Secondly, it's important to distinguish between detection dogs, patrol dogs and dual purpose dogs. Different selection criteria is used depending on what the dog is going to be used for.

Detection dogs do NOT need to have the temperament for bitework. Patrol dogs and dual purpose dogs MUST have the genetic qualities for fighting a grown human male.

There are "Police Dogs" that only perform detection work. In this category there is wide assortment of breeds as well as mutts. These dogs may or may not have the genetics for apprehension/manfighting. Many have zero genetic capacity for Patrol work. It doesn't matter either way because they are only used for detection work. Since there is no need to include selecting traits needed for bitework, the pool to select from is quite large. Sellers can test a huge number of dogs to find the best prospects for Police buyers. This is how sometimes Beagles, Labs, Hounds, Mutts, etc, get selected over GSD's, Mal's, etc. With rare exceptions Dobermann's simply do not stand out in this large pool. In fact, I think the only time in recent history we've seen a Dobermann detection dog was in a some small department where a Dobermann was used because it was a personal dog or other reason. It was not because the dog passed a competitive selection process against other dogs. Additionally, the genetic traits needed for bitework can make a dog less desirable for a detection only dog. Even if those traits watered down. Why have a dog with natural suspicion of people or protective instincts working only detection in an Airport, etc? If you don't need bitework you may as well have a dog that's super easy to handle. Once in a while there will even be a department buying detection dogs that specifically wants dog types not traditionally associated with patrol work.

Dual purpose dogs are used for both detection and patrol. Dogs used for bitework (Patrol or dual purpose) go through a very different selection process compared to a detection only dog. This is what many (most?) people think is a "Police Dog". This is work that requires particular genetics. Traits that cannot be trained into a dog. Traits it must be born with. Officers doing selection for departments with established K9 programs know what to look for. These guys aren't simply dog handlers or someone who 'loves dogs'. Sometimes less experienced buyers will network with other buyers who can share info or go on joint buying trips. Sellers also have a vested interest in providing quality dogs. Departments have asked to return dogs that didn't meet expectations. Sellers depend on having a reputation for supplying good dogs.

Dobermanns seldom have the working traits needed to end up in the kennels of Police dog suppliers. They just aren't good enough to pass the selection process that would put them on the market. It's that simple. Working genetics are not being bred for in sufficient numbers.

It's not the short coat.
It's not trainability or other nonsense about decision making or other nonsense.

Health is an issue. I spoke with an Officer after a dog buying trip. He had found a Dobermann that met selection criteria. The only one he'd ever encountered that did. No dog is perfect and after evaluating and going over the pro's/con's of the dogs he'd looked at; he needed to choose between the Dobermann and a German Shepherd Dog as the top two from his selection process. In the end he bought the GSD because the Dobermann was a European import with floppy ears. He decided it would be wrong to burden the department with potential infections and injuries when there was a dog equally as good without the potential issues. And yes, before anyone claims those are not real concerns, these are legitimate. Ever see a Police dog with one ear tip flopped over? It's almost certainly from an injury.

Bottom line is that with few exceptions Dobermann breeding has prioritized conformation over working ability. Now there are insufficient dogs capable of Police (patrol) work. No reasonable person would expect to see Dobermann's as single purpose detection dogs. It wasn't created to have genetics that would make it a superior detection dog. There are plenty of breeds more suitable for that task. We should however expect to see Dobermann's doing patrol work but as a population they no longer are capable.

I occasionally respond in these types of threads because I have the knowledge and because the Dobermann COULD recover if the focus of breeding changed. The priority needs to change. Working temperament needs to come first with a goal to produce the healthiest dogs possible. None of this 'three legged stool' crap. As long as the dogs meet the breed conformation standard it's good enough. Dogs can be bred to the breed conformation standard and still be considered "ugly" by some. No need to strive for some vision of perfection. Ideal conformation should be a complete non issue until we have healthy working dogs.

 

[BGpa]

I have a close relative who was the lead Officer of the canine program on a highly professional, well funded Police Department. I've had really educational discussions with him as well as Officers from other departments who were involved in selecting dogs. Because of these connections I'm able to provide some information on why Dobermanns are not being used.

First off, the video is largely nonsense.

Secondly, it's important to distinguish between detection dogs, patrol dogs and dual purpose dogs. Different selection criteria is used depending on what the dog is going to be used for.

Detection dogs do NOT need to have the temperament for bitework. Patrol dogs and dual purpose dogs MUST have the genetic qualities for fighting a grown human male.

There are "Police Dogs" that only perform detection work. In this category there is wide assortment of breeds as well as mutts. These dogs may or may not have the genetics for apprehension/manfighting. Many have zero genetic capacity for Patrol work. It doesn't matter either way because they are only used for detection work. Since there is no need to include selecting traits needed for bitework, the pool to select from is quite large. Sellers can test a huge number of dogs to find the best prospects for Police buyers. This is how sometimes Beagles, Labs, Hounds, Mutts, etc, get selected over GSD's, Mal's, etc. With rare exceptions Dobermann's simply do not stand out in this large pool. In fact, I think the only time in recent history we've seen a Dobermann detection dog was in a some small department where a Dobermann was used because it was a personal dog or other reason. It was not because the dog passed a competitive selection process against other dogs. Additionally, the genetic traits needed for bitework can make a dog less desirable for a detection only dog. Even if those traits watered down. Why have a dog with natural suspicion of people or protective instincts working only detection in an Airport, etc? If you don't need bitework you may as well have a dog that's super easy to handle. Once in a while there will even be a department buying detection dogs that specifically wants dog types not traditionally associated with patrol work.

Dual purpose dogs are used for both detection and patrol. Dogs used for bitework (Patrol or dual purpose) go through a very different selection process compared to a detection only dog. This is what many (most?) people think is a "Police Dog". This is work that requires particular genetics. Traits that cannot be trained into a dog. Traits it must be born with. Officers doing selection for departments with established K9 programs know what to look for. These guys aren't simply dog handlers or someone who 'loves dogs'. Sometimes less experienced buyers will network with other buyers who can share info or go on joint buying trips. Sellers also have a vested interest in providing quality dogs. Departments have asked to return dogs that didn't meet expectations. Sellers depend on having a reputation for supplying good dogs.

Dobermanns seldom have the working traits needed to end up in the kennels of Police dog suppliers. They just aren't good enough to pass the selection process that would put them on the market. It's that simple. Working genetics are not being bred for in sufficient numbers.

It's not the short coat.
It's not trainability or other nonsense about decision making or other nonsense.

Health is an issue. I spoke with an Officer after a dog buying trip. He had found a Dobermann that met selection criteria. The only one he'd ever encountered that did. No dog is perfect and after evaluating and going over the pro's/con's of the dogs he'd looked at; he needed to choose between the Dobermann and a German Shepherd Dog as the top two from his selection process. In the end he bought the GSD because the Dobermann was a European import with floppy ears. He decided it would be wrong to burden the department with potential infections and injuries when there was a dog equally as good without the potential issues. And yes, before anyone claims those are not real concerns, these are legitimate. Ever see a Police dog with one ear tip flopped over? It's almost certainly from an injury.

Bottom line is that with few exceptions Dobermann breeding has prioritized conformation over working ability. Now there are insufficient dogs capable of Police (patrol) work. No reasonable person would expect to see Dobermann's as single purpose detection dogs. It wasn't created to have genetics that would make it a superior detection dog. There are plenty of breeds more suitable for that task. We should however expect to see Dobermann's doing patrol work but as a population they no longer are capable.

I occasionally respond in these types of threads because I have the knowledge and because the Dobermann COULD recover if the focus of breeding changed. The priority needs to change. Working temperament needs to come first with a goal to produce the healthiest dogs possible. None of this 'three legged stool' crap. As long as the dogs meet the breed conformation standard it's good enough. Dogs can be bred to the breed conformation standard and still be considered "ugly" by some. No need to strive for some vision of perfection. Ideal conformation should be a complete non issue until we have healthy working dogs.

Thank you! Extremely valuable information.
Bookmarked and saved for later reference.

We had a big strong GSD we saved from a breed rescue who was smart, protective but just about too much to handle until we got training for ourselves by a 40 yrs in the business of training LEAs and Border Patrol.

That went so well, we did same with Bonnie as a puppy; to train us...

They used to train dobes back in the day but now only for civilians who bring them in, as all the LEOs use Mals and GSDs. They also train rotts, working line labs for civilian family protection.

 

[Ravenbird]

As long as the dogs meet the breed conformation standard it's good enough. Dogs can be bred to the breed conformation standard and still be considered "ugly" by some. No need to strive for some vision of perfection. Ideal conformation should be a complete non issue until we have healthy working dogs.

Your whole statement I agree with 100%. Your last paragraph ^^^ sums it up. I have tried and tried to see, study & understand the conformation world and the more I learn the more insane it becomes. In today's world of breeding show dogs (of any breed) health has gone in the toilet. And for working dogs, 95% of the working breeds have no working abilities that they were originally designed to do if the are grand champions in conformation.