Interesting notes on DCM

[JanS]

Also when I cut up vegetables for our dinner, they get brocolli stems, (from the crown, not big stem)
And I chop up fresh green beans real small and add to food.

Ours get lots of fresh broccoli stems while we are getting them out of the garden and they also get green beans but neither of those are root crops.

Again; I just don't know what to think about it all....the 'science' continues to change.

I don't so much think it's the science but one person has a theory and when it get posted on the internet, people run with it and it spreads.

 

[MichiH]

I give these two a raw carrot when I am cooking once in awhile. Also when I cut up vegetables for our dinner, they get brocolli stems, (from the crown, not big stem)
And I chop up fresh green beans real small and add to food. When Falcon was teething, I would rinse a carrot in water, then freeze, and let him naw on that. And ours can hear you crack a banana peel from a sound sleep in the other room! They love their morning nana....I have never had gut problems with any of them, and I have lost dobes to DCM...but I still think it was genetic at the time. Again; I just don't know what to think about it all....the 'science' continues to change.

Same here with the veggies and fruit for snacks. Pepper hears me chopping and comes running into the kitchen. She will get whatever I’m cutting up in a small amount. She is not picky at all she’ll even eat some arugula leaves and radishes lol.

 

[BGpa]

Saw this on FB. I've seen recently not to feed sweet potatoes, but now appears to be the whole root vegetable category. I don't feed these anyway except carrots are in the Fresh Pet that feed a small amount of. I'll have to look at my kibble, as I think it may contain beet pulp, which has become another popular addition to dog food. and while I'm at it I'll check on the other veggies listed.

I've argued that if a dog has inherited DCM, diet won't prevent it, but still, no reason to add insult to injury by feeding food that makes them more prone to it.

Posted on FB by
Doberman Pinscher Club of Sacramento

As Doberman owners, we know dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) is one of the most serious health challenges in our breed. DCM is a disease where the heart becomes enlarged and weakened, reducing its ability to pump effectively. While many cases in Dobermans are genetic, we’re also seeing cases that are not, which has led researchers to take a closer look at diet.

The UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine first raised concerns about certain diets, particularly those high in pulses (i.e., peas, lentils, chickpeas, and other legumes) commonly found in grain-free foods. These ingredients may interfere with taurine, an amino acid critical to heart health. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration and the Tufts University Cummings School of Veterinary Medicine continue to study diet-associated DCM, and it remains an open and evolving issue.

More recently, we’ve been hearing from veterinary cardiologists about another area of concern: root vegetables. These are foods where the edible portion grows underground, including sweet potatoes, yams, carrots, and beets. A Northern California cardiologist we know and trust has suggested her clients (all breeds) remove root vegetables from their diets. Clients without a genetic predisposition for DCM who showed sudden or early signs of the disease have significantly improved and even showed a normal echocardiogram after these ingredients were removed from the diet. At this point, we don’t know why this may be happening, and research is still limited — but it’s something we feel is worth sharing.

One of our club members recently experienced something similar:

“Our 4-year-old dog had always had normal Holter and echo results. Then last fall, one Holter showed a significant increase in PVCs and the echo had declined. A few months later we did another Holter check and the PVCs dropped almost back to normal. Recently we heard about the vet having success eliminating root vegetables. Looking back, we realized that for a few months prior to the bad Holter and echo, we had been adding carrots and sweet potatoes to the diet for temporary weight loss. When we did the second Holter recheck, she had been off the carrots and sweet potatoes for about 3 months. It was a real lightbulb moment for us.”

Added this compendium as a standalone and tagging it on here, for reference- here is the only mention relevant to OP @Ravenbird topic on food: "diet mediation"

Prevention & Treatment

Diet-mediated DCM can be prevented by feeding balanced diets that avoid BEG foods with peas, lentils, and potatoes in the first 10 ingredients. There is no preventative supplement, procedure, or...

www.dobermandcm.com

 

[Ravenbird]

Thanks @BG1 - good info. In my mind there are at least 3 versions: Diet caused in dogs with no genetic propensity to heart disease, DCM, DHF due to genetics and DCM, arithmetic heart disease/sudden death also usually genetic. It makes all the sense in the world to pay heed to information about diet caused DCM so we can avoid adding insult to injury.

 

[BGpa]

Thanks @BG1 - good info. In my mind there are at least 3 versions: Diet caused in dogs with no genetic propensity to heart disease, DCM, DHF due to genetics and DCM, arithmetic heart disease/sudden death also usually genetic. It makes all the sense in the world to pay heed to information about diet caused DCM so we can avoid adding insult to injury.

Agree. We can watch what we eat, and exercise, and test regularly for what we might inherit, and stay on top of conditions once found, hopefully early enough to matter for extra time with quality of life. Same for us two legged.

 

[MyBuddy]

Very interesting thread and comments!

I've seen the sweet potato treats in stores and thought why in the world would that be a good treat for a dog?

Well crap, I thought these would be good! I bought it at my holistic store which is the only place I buy any of my dog treats.

Agree we should avoid the root veggies? or a little won't hurt? Would love to hear your thoughts on this!

I don't feed them on the regular basis. Maybe a couple of times a week so maybe that's okay? Or should I avoid it completely?

 

[Ravenbird]

I don't feed them on the regular basis. Maybe a couple of times a week so maybe that's okay? Or should I avoid it completely?

I don't think anything has to be avoided completely. The reason I wondered why a company would make sweet potato chips for a dog treat is simply that dogs in general are protein/meat eaters, and biologically do not need carbs. Vegetables in general have little protein and lots of starch, so what is the nutritional benefit? Some of these companies make things that appeal to humans idea of what would taste good. Like the "smoked flavor" meat treats. Why would a dog like smoke flavor over real meat flavor? I don't have anything against it, and only share the article so we can make better decisions about what might be a better choice when it comes to feeding or treating our dogs. I doubt a few times a week would matter. Just food for thought - Pun intended! LOL

 

[JanS]

I don't think anything has to be avoided completely.

I agree there. I think the biggest thing is when stuff is most of your dogs regular diet.

 

[BGpa]

Very interesting thread and comments!

Well crap, I thought these would be good! I bought it at my holistic store which is the only place I buy any of my dog treats.
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I don't feed them on the regular basis. Maybe a couple of times a week so maybe that's okay? Or should I avoid it completely?

All things in moderation...
Hoomans can be vegans, canines need meat.

 

[Renzo Red]

this makes me sad.. My Rocco Red passed at 9 years old from DCM in 2016 I fed him raw carrots all the time and sweet potatoes.

 

[Ravenbird]

I fed him raw carrots all the time and sweet potatoes.

Rest assured I don't think this is a cause especially in the Doberman breed where it is known to be genetic. Just more info that we can file away.

 

[BGpa]

This is really useful @Liminalist .
I'm scanning your past comments, and will ask more ? later but

seriously, would love to read or watch your "TED talk" given you long insider info, and your research and applied diet results speak for themselves.

With AI able to scan public forums and websites, this kind of experiential learning is highly useful, and valuable when paired to science studies, imho.

Here is my small offering:

We've been feeding Inukshik since puppy at 4months based on food recommendd by a 40 years in LEO training facility that feeds all their GSDs Mals and other working lines same. We started on 24/16 as the dobe puppy guideline is no more than 24% protein until long bones are growing in, to prevent knuckling.

I tend to go with "if it aint broke dont fix it" and have looked into raw, but its difficult to find and expensive here in our part of socal. I'm intrigued by the gut biome research both dogs and people, so reading more.

I did a lot of research into copper (you can find my links etc at the other doberman forum, following the approach;

That a vet who presented at DPCA in 2024 on "create your DCM heart plan" approach, so I did same in "copper health plan" step by step on what I learned, links to youtube etc.

If there is interest I'll recreate a few of those here.

Bonnie has genetic markers for DCM2 (tntt) and the most penetrant gene for copper storage APBT7 per Embark,
so a year ago I changed diet including eliminating treats with any beef liver content, and emailing Inukshik to confirm lowest copper content. She is now on Marine30 at lower volume (1 cup morning and nite) and
tolerating it very well, with only other input a frozen raw marrow bone 2" sliced from butcher at 200 cal in fat.

Occasionally I'll pour a bit of hamburger juice or sardine juice, with a tablespoon or two as a topping in morning kibble, but keeping that minimal as she can stand to lose 5lb...working on exercise more- 3miles a day for me is 5 miles for her if we can find off leash trail or beach time...

She also gets an 24" dry esophagus- all collagen at night to chew on lasts 2-3 days.

Maybe a tablespoon of large curd cottage cheerse in evening kibble if stool is loose.

We get a lot of compliments on her shiny coat and I put that down to the high fish content.

She just passed age 3 and she is good to go on echo, holter, and liver ALT test, so we are doing what we can on diet, while monitoring health related to genetic markers that are "correlation but not causation".

I've PMd you if you want to go offline to share more, but please feel free to share more in public, for the benefit of all.

Thanks again, and @JanS too.
Tremendous resource here at DCF.

Bumped as a reminder on your "TED Talk" offer: is that on film somewhere, linkage?

I just mentioned RER and MER in reference to @Nordika mention and this reference I found:

Table:Daily Maintenance Energy Requirements for Dogs and Cats-Merck Veterinary Manual

www.merckvetmanual.com

BW and I have let Bonnie's fondness for frozen marrow bones plus my avoidance of hot humid weather = lower midday exercise on the black skin/fur doggie (my bad) get her a bit too chubby...

So applying my dog nerd interest to go a bit beyond just "how she looks" in top and side profile per the confo show judges diagram, plus weight ...she's porked up too much.

So now I'm looking at recalc on kibble plus treats...cynologist nerd science!