How The Doberman Pinscher Temperament Has Changed

[Oh Little Oji]

To answer your question we must first establish some sort of criteria for a protection dog. My general statements are based on the presumption that the criteria would involve the potential for significant levels of mental stress and physical force. Work that requires a dog to have a strong temperament.

We can look to professions that use dogs in a protection capacity. In the USA these are primarily Police and Military. Dutch Shepherds, Mailnios and German Shepherd Dogs dominate these professions. Occasionally you see other breeds working but not Dobermann's. Modern day Dobermann's are virtually non existent in these fields.

We can look to sports that include a Protection Phase as part of the competition. Dobermann's do not occupy first (or second) place in these venues. In fact, not long ago I was looking at the results of some international competition and Hovawarts were doing as well or better than Dobermanns!!

We can look to successful private business that provide security services. These tend to be somewhat low profile and statistics are going to be difficult to nail down. I'm not aware of any of these businesses using Dobermann's though, are you?

We can look at the breeds reputable Protection Dog trainers recommend for serious family/home protection.

As another poster mentioned- alerting and barking along with maybe taking a weak bite at a someone is nothing special; lots of dogs will do that much. That isn't protection work.

People like me still want to give the Dobermann a chance. However, I also drive a 21 year old truck and hunt with a lever action rifle. I make those choices knowing that there are better tools for the job and I won't pretend otherwise.

The breed could be restored. Will it though? Show dogs and Pets are where the money's at...........

Good points indeed!

Yes, one can find examples of Dobes in law enforcement but they are overwhelmingly the minority. This was not the case in the past – I am thinking in the 1950s or 60s.

To my knowledge there are no Dobes in use in the U.S. military. This of course was not always the case. In fact it's my understanding that the U.S. Marines' mascot used to be the Doberman – the Devil Dogs. Now it is the nonsensical image of an Old English Bulldog, but that's a side note.

So I think there are examples of Dobes able to hack it, but they are rare. Law enforcement agencies and especially the military go with the largest resource of capable dogs, and that is not our breed. The Malinois, and perhaps its cousins, has become the favored dog. They have replaced the GSD, I think, due to a sharper temperament (on the whole) and superior speed and agility. @Prushanks may want to speak to this, as she has as a member of her family an awesome GSD that is a Police K9. Bear is a large guy and I recall Prushanks talking about how he has trouble maneuvering in small vehicles when searching.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Nonexistent?
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If you say so.

The Hovawart was bred as a guard/ protection dog so it's no surprise they do well. I actually considered one before getting Dobermans. The fur though, the hair like a golden retriever. Ugh.


A Doberman, a 21 year old truck and a lever action.
Despite what may have sounded like an antagonistic post on my part you sound like someone I would hang out with.

I know you have posted in the past a nice pic of a couple cops (South African?) with their great-looking Dobermann K9s.

 

[Prushanks]

Good points indeed!

Yes, one can find examples of Dobes in law enforcement but they are overwhelmingly the minority. This was not the case in the past – I am thinking in the 1950s or 60s.

To my knowledge there are no Dobes in use in the U.S. military. This of course was not always the case. In fact it's my understanding that the U.S. Marines' mascot used to be the Doberman – the Devil Dogs. Now it is the nonsensical image of an Old English Bulldog, but that's a side note.

So I think there are examples of Dobes able to hack it, but they are rare. Law enforcement agencies and especially the military go with the largest resource of capable dogs, and that is not our breed. The Malinois, and perhaps its cousins, has become the favored dog. They have replaced the GSD, I think, due to a sharper temperament (on the whole) and superior speed and agility. @Prushanks may want to speak to this, as she has as a member of her family an awesome GSD that is a Police K9. Bear is a large guy and I recall Prushanks talking about how he has trouble maneuvering in small vehicles when searching.

That's exactly it.. at least it is the thinking in the departments in the tri-state area (ny/nj/ct etc) and what's coming over to us from Europe. Smaller "GSDs" (not looking at all like the typical picture of GSD) that are closer to Mal-size, and hybrids of Mal/GSD -which i suspect are what the smaller GSDs really are... LE are not sticklers for pedigree.. just getting the job done! (This is similar to the thread about widening the doberman gene pool too)
Hubbs said too that GSDs are/were mostly used because they are in the top 3 for all skills necessary for being in LE. They are a versatile dog for sure and that is what is needed.
As @Oh Little Oji said, Mals are sharper, extremely driven and have more effective size. They are great for bitework, not to mention speed! The gsd/mals types are a great mix of all factors.
Large size in LE doesnt equate with effectiveness, our Tank is phenomenal at his job- a true model of K9 - i will admit some bias! (though he is starting to feel his years ) and his size is a hindrance. He has a hell of a time moving around in smaller cars for narco searches. He isnt as fast or agile (though in his hay day he could get'er done was a sight to be seen!) as the smaller "GSDs" who can literally fly.
Sooner or later these GSD/Mals will be their own working breed!

 

[NikiL02]

I was reading an article about dobermans training for protection and the main issue is that you train a doberman differently than a herding dog, like a gsd or mal. Prey drive is not herding drive. How you train a gsd for protection is apparently not how you do it with doberman (according to everything ive read, not personal experience.)

Also i think public image comes into it and cost. A gsd has naturally erect ears. When they are sitting still the general public can see them as home dogs with kids all over them. Theyre fluffier and their double coats allow for a wider variety of climates. Dobermans have rarely been shown to the public as family dogs when they are protection or police dogs. They're the evil dog in horror movies. They're scary and dangerous. Of course people with dobermans know this isnt the case but the general public doesnt walk up and pet your dobe who's relaxing. The cost and time spent cropping and posting is also agasint them, along with the public image of the crop and dock.

 

[Drogon]

We can look to professions that use dogs in a protection capacity. In the USA these are primarily Police and Military.

I don't consider police or military work protection work. While they do perform protection work when needed, they're seldom called on to actually protect their handler.

We can look to sports that include a Protection Phase as part of the competition.

I don't feel this is a good representation. There is only a 'Protection Phase' and we don't get to see which dogs excelled at the protection phase. We only get to see the result of all the phases. Dobermans repeatedly do as well as any other breed in the protection phase.

I was referring to the personal protection for which they were bred.

 

[adhahn]

Gelcoater- Haha, you must be a kindred spirit who doesn't readily latch onto the latest/greatest gadget or fad that comes down the pike! While you might find some here or there, there are so few that it's disingenuous to claim modern Dobermann's are still used in LE. To further hammer home the point; the topic of the thread was about the demise of the Dobermann's temperament. Dobermann representation SHOULD be in the role of patrol/bite/protection/apprehension. That is the niche where the Dobermann should excel (but sadly does not). Detection dogs are valuable but do not require the same temperament as an apprehension/bite dog.

NikiL02- I bet I know what article you are referring to. IF it's the same one, then IMO that article has been a great disservice to Dobermann's. The author's heart may have been in the right place, but the message far too many Dobermann owners walk away with is wrong, wrong, wrong. Every dog (no matter the breed) is an individual. There are of course traits which are more (or less) prominent when comparing breeds. Are Dobermann's different from GSD's? Sure. Mal's are different from GSD's too. So are Rott's, Beauceron's, Boxers, etc, etc. Do you adjust training (slightly) to accommodate the needs of individual dogs? Certainly! None of that should ever be used as an excuse for weak nerves, low drive or other signs of poor temperament. Unfortunately, folks read the article and start making excuses for poor temperament. The author can speak for himself, but I doubt that is what he intended.

Drogon- The temperament traits needed for protection work are (in theory) the same for a .mil or LE patrol dog, a sport dog or a personal dog. In reality, not all dogs in LE (or sport, etc) are top quality dogs. Dog's get used for sport that would never make it on the street and conversely there are dogs in LE that aren't strong enough to make it as top sport dogs. So much of that depends on the department or owner, the level of institutional or personal knowledge/experience and what they are willing to compromise on.

In very general, non specific terms, a protection dog must have the desire (drive) to fight with a human and the mental strength (nerves) to stay in the fight regardless of the situation (strange environment, never before experienced situation, pain, injury, etc). These are needed no matter whether the dog is on the street, sport field or at home. Nobody dies on the sport field when a dogs weaknesses are revealed. That doesn't make the sport field useless though, on the contrary, it makes the sport field a good place to learn about your dog.

 

[NikiL02]

I doubt it was the same article. the one im referring to is written by someone who trains dobermans for schutzhund. It was quite positive and just pointed out the difference in how the dogs learn due to their breeds. I can see this making a difference in training styles to produce the end result. I dont remember my exact search query to find it again. :/

I wonder in this world of pets and positive training if all dogs are in general being numbed. 15 years ago labs were more serious. If you wanted the happy dog, you got a golden. A lab was more stoic. Now you need the Chesapeake Bay retreiver to get a stoic independent retriever. Once upon a time border collies would never have survived in an apartment. Neither would a husky.

I agree that the pet market, which has lead to more dogs without jobs, have created a more general personality with a wider variety of looks.

 

[Prushanks]

Why the Doberman is Different

Read this a long time back and found it very interesting.

 

[NikiL02]

Why the Doberman is Different

Read this a long time back and found it very interesting.

Thats it.

 

[Poppy]

I feel like having a Doberman with a proper temperament is just not suitable for this day in age. Everyone thinks they should be able to run up to a strange dog and hug them and the dog should take it and be happy about it. Also they should tolerant any and everything from another dog or they are pinned the bad guy...Very frustrating.

 

[Gelcoater]

I feel like having a Doberman with a proper temperament is just not suitable for this day in age. Everyone thinks they should be able to run up to a strange dog and hug them and the dog should take it and be happy about it. Also they should tolerant any and everything from another dog or they are pinned the bad guy...Very frustrating.

I believe that statement applies to just about everything these days, not just our dogs.

 

[Poppy]

I believe that statement applies to just about everything these days, not just our dogs.

very true!

 

[Doberman Gang]

What breed(s) is/are better protection dogs? These are all just opinions but I'd be interested to hear yours. To me there isn't a better breed for a protection dog. Malinois are too small IMHO, Rottweilers too slow and tire too quickly, GSD are good but I wouldn't say better than a Dobermann.

Malinois are the same size as the doberman. Too small? put on a sleeve or suit and catch a 90 lb male coming at full speed. Sorry I have to disagree with that statement. Mal's can be a bit nervy though, not unlike many of the conformation breed dobermans. Most working line breeders i know breed conformation lines into ther programs to maintain structure. There are also a few conformation breeders that are starting to breed drive back into there dogs to get away from the dead beats you see in the ring these days.

 

[Gelcoater]

Malinois are the same size as the doberman. Too small? put on a sleeve or suit and catch a 90 lb male coming at full speed. Sorry I have to disagree with that statement. Mal's can be a bit nervy though, not unlike many of the conformation breed dobermans. Most working line breeders i know breed conformation lines into ther programs to maintain structure. There are also a few conformation breeders that are starting to breed drive back into there dogs to get away from the dead beats you see in the ring these days.

Great post.

I agree with his comments on the Rotties, most I see are too big and bulky to be agile. I do know a family with a male Rot who is maybe 65ish lbs. full grown. He's much smaller in appearance than most others I have seen and is quite quick. He's the same one I've mentioned here before, the deaf Rottie.
I think if someone would have figured him out early on and worked him towards it a Rott his size would make a great working dog, be it herding, agility, protection, and I suspect with his hearing disabled his sense of smell would be somewhat more in tune? Tracking dog anyone?

 

[Drogon]

Malinois are the same size as the doberman. Too small? put on a sleeve or suit and catch a 90 lb male coming at full speed. Sorry I have to disagree with that statement.

I didn't realize Mals were that big. The ones I've seen at our club and trials are only 60lbs. Our helper catches them on the sleeve and then just runs down the field. So I guess I based my opinion on my limited knowledge.

 

[Gelcoater]

I didn't realize Mals were that big. The ones I've seen at our club and trials are only 60lbs. Our helper catches them on the sleeve and then just runs down the field. So I guess I based my opinion on my limited knowledge.

Actually I didn't realize that either?
I haven't seen as many as you probably have but the ones I have seen I would estimate in the 75lb range?
I'm pretty sure the Riverside PD exhibition I saw a couple of years ago the Mal was in that 70ish lb range, and last season the BLM (Bureau of Land Management, not those guys that stole someone else's acronym ) his Mal was also about the same range. And he (the Mal not the handler) was a grouchy one, lol.

@Doberman Gang
I'm curious. And I'm asking because I do not know. I'm pretty sure you have a Mal?

I seem to recall and I can not remember where, folks have stated that the Mals definitely excell at protection and bite work, but that their "off button" is harder to press so to speak vs a GSD, Doberman or other dogs popular in that sport. However I think that was more directed at police K-9 more than folks into the sport side of bite work.
Your view?

 

[Doberman Gang]

I didn't realize Mals were that big. The ones I've seen at our club and trials are only 60lbs. Our helper catches them on the sleeve and then just runs down the field. So I guess I based my opinion on my limited knowledge.

Yea, there is a wide range of size but many of the males are pretty big in size average probably 70 -90 lbs. are female is identical in size to Prada both are right around 70 -75 lbs. Conformation breed Mal's are also on the smaller size and they are breeding out drives as well it is sad to see.

 

[Doberman Gang]

Actually I didn't realize that either?
I haven't seen as many as you probably have but the ones I have seen I would estimate in the 75lb range?
I'm pretty sure the Riverside PD exhibition I saw a couple of years ago the Mal was in that 70ish lb range, and last season the BLM (Bureau of Land Management, not those guys that stole someone else's acronym ) his Mal was also about the same range. And he (the Mal not the handler) was a grouchy one, lol.

@Doberman Gang
I'm curious. And I'm asking because I do not know. I'm pretty sure you have a Mal?

I seem to recall and I can not remember where, folks have stated that the Mals definitely excell at protection and bite work, but that their "off button" is harder to press so to speak vs a GSD, Doberman or other dogs popular in that sport. However I think that was more directed at police K-9 more than folks into the sport side of bite work.
Your view?

They can definitely push the envelope, a buddy of mine in St. Louis was trialing at the trial I did Prada's BH at a few weeks ago. Had the trial in the bag, high tracking scoring i believe a 97, also scored in the 90's in obedience and was looking at a V rating. Performed awesome in protection and got to the last test, the courage test or long bite, he sent his dog, dog gripped took the drive but then wouldn't out. You get 3 chances to command your dog from the other end of the field but unfortunately no out and no title or awards.
They all are different just like dobermans, you can get a really hard dog or a soft dog. Some drives are developed thru training some are inherited for pedigree but for the most part higher in drive than most dobermans.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Great post.

I agree with his comments on the Rotties, most I see are too big and bulky to be agile. I do know a family with a male Rot who is maybe 65ish lbs. full grown. He's much smaller in appearance than most others I have seen and is quite quick. He's the same one I've mentioned here before, the deaf Rottie.
I think if someone would have figured him out early on and worked him towards it a Rott his size would make a great working dog, be it herding, agility, protection, and I suspect with his hearing disabled his sense of smell would be somewhat more in tune? Tracking dog anyone?

So, that Rott is Oji's weight. Small package to be sure.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

My only direct interaction with a Malinois is the day we went to see about buying my previous Dobe. The breeder's friend owned the sire and also had her Mal there. That day at the breeder's property they asked if I wanted to put on the bite sleeve and take a bite from both my pup's sire (at that time, an 11-time Schutzhund III) and the Mal. I am ashamed to admit the Mal, who was the smaller dog as you might imagine, had the harder and slightly more assertive bite on that occasion.