Baalaur attacked my wife

[suzy hans jacks]

Baalaur had a long training session with a k-9 officer yesterday. Most of what you all are saying is being done. He earns his out if crate time. He is muzzled when he's not crated.

Anna is ok. More upset and hurt emotionally then anything. But to this incredible lady's credit. 1 hour after the incident she was in the back yard working with him. I've been at work for 48 hrs and she is handeling everything. She's a wonderful woman and loves her dogs. She will not be swayed.

The K9 officer is the best trainer we have in the area. This is not a small town but Doberman experts are not here. Baalaur is one of 4 dobes in the city. Vet appointment as soon as we can get him in.

Thank you all for your assistance and guidance. We aren't giving up on him and hope that within 6 months life will be at a point where Baalaur is trusted and knows his place.

The breeder has not (probably will not) answer email calls or texts. I don't care about his bloodlines. He's my best friend and I won't give up on him.

I know these dogs aren't for everyone and I know it's not a child or human. But to a wife unable to give birth it's what we have.

Here is a few random pics of my boy.

He is beautiful and we wish you the best of luck and keep us all posted on his progress. Your story may help other companion owners field minor issues. Let us know exactly how the K-9 officer is working with him and any techniques employed. I don't live in a large area either and Dobermans are not the most popular breed...I am surrounded by stupid mutt owners with spoiled unruly children.

 

[dh8]

Very awesome that you both are willing to change what you need to do in order for your dog to understand where his place is. Your dog will be much happier too. Any expert in dominant dog behavior will be able to help and you may be fine just changing all the signals you've been giving him that he was in charge and increasing some exercise.

You haven't said if he's neutered or not but if he isn't, it is really imperative that be done asap. It takes so much expertise and constant surveillance to properly supervise an intact dog with these issues that I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. It's like keeping a pool of fuel around you and focusing on the little spark that can cause the explosion. You'd never be able to really relax or enjoy your time with him if you have to stay at that level of alert.

You may go for muzzling for a short time but you have to have the muzzle off in order to assess and train him properly. You won't learn his cues and warnings because it takes dogs a very short time to understand they can't bite with the muzzle on. It leaves you working with an altered behavior instead of his natural behavior. You also can't really get over your fear of him biting if he is constantly muzzled whenever he is close to you and owner fear is a big part of these cases. Prolonged muzzling causes its own set of issues for the dog too.

hey if you have 4 dobis in town you have a big dobi town! I am the only person in town with Dobermans here. we saw one idiot with a Doberman loose in the back of a pick up but they were getting on the ferry to leave town so they don't count.

 

[StarlightDobe]

Baalaur had a long training session with a k-9 officer yesterday. Most of what you all are saying is being done. He earns his out if crate time. He is muzzled when he's not crated.

Anna is ok. More upset and hurt emotionally then anything. But to this incredible lady's credit. 1 hour after the incident she was in the back yard working with him. I've been at work for 48 hrs and she is handeling everything. She's a wonderful woman and loves her dogs. She will not be swayed.

The K9 officer is the best trainer we have in the area. This is not a small town but Doberman experts are not here. Baalaur is one of 4 dobes in the city. Vet appointment as soon as we can get him in.

Thank you all for your assistance and guidance. We aren't giving up on him and hope that within 6 months life will be at a point where Baalaur is trusted and knows his place.

The breeder has not (probably will not) answer email calls or texts. I don't care about his bloodlines. He's my best friend and I won't give up on him.

I know these dogs aren't for everyone and I know it's not a child or human. But to a wife unable to give birth it's what we have.

Here is a few random pics of my boy.

I think he looks like quite a ham lol! He is super adorable, and I really hope that you see the light at the end of the tunnel, thank you for sticking with him and not giving up on him.

 

[ariegel]

I have no more advice to give but just wanted to say that your wife is awesome for getting back out there with him! Thank you for not giving up on him. There is hope. I work in a vet clinic and we have a couple that adopted a young GSD. You could not get close to this dog because of his aggression. A simple nail trim took the husband, the only male Dr., and me to get it done. Lets just say that the room was not a nice place to be when we got done and I usually had to change my uniform after. Long story short he came in a few months for yearly stuff and I trimmed his nails by myself, mom just held onto his collar and told him NO when he just turned to look at me. They took control and the dog is doing great. I hope this helps in some way! Good Luck and keep us posted!

 

[suzy hans jacks]

Very awesome that you both are willing to change what you need to do in order for your dog to understand where his place is. Your dog will be much happier too. Any expert in dominant dog behavior will be able to help and you may be fine just changing all the signals you've been giving him that he was in charge and increasing some exercise.

You haven't said if he's neutered or not but if he isn't, it is really imperative that be done asap. It takes so much expertise and constant surveillance to properly supervise an intact dog with these issues that I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. It's like keeping a pool of fuel around you and focusing on the little spark that can cause the explosion. You'd never be able to really relax or enjoy your time with him if you have to stay at that level of alert.

You may go for muzzling for a short time but you have to have the muzzle off in order to assess and train him properly. You won't learn his cues and warnings because it takes dogs a very short time to understand they can't bite with the muzzle on. It leaves you working with an altered behavior instead of his natural behavior. You also can't really get over your fear of him biting if he is constantly muzzled whenever he is close to you and owner fear is a big part of these cases. Prolonged muzzling causes its own set of issues for the dog too.

hey if you have 4 dobis in town you have a big dobi town! I am the only person in town with Dobermans here. we saw one idiot with a Doberman loose in the back of a pick up but they were getting on the ferry to leave town so they don't count.

I only use a muzzle when I am breaking an issue; it is to re-enforce submissive behavior. It should never be left on long term or for long periods of times and I am sorry if you mistook my posting. For this particular issue this can give Anna the time she needs to work her fear response behavior which is very important after being bitten. The animal in question learns that the snap response is not to be tolerated. I also grab the muzzle and say "no," but then again I have had to learn the hard way. Whether he is neutered or not is a mute point and really only solves the hormone driven impulse if she was in cycle. That would have been a more private question and would answer as to why she might have found herself in this position along with being the weaker parent.

The fact she was right back out in the yard working with him gives her much credit and I say "GO ANNA."

 

[MicheleM]

I agree a muzzle shouldn't be worn for long periods of time and think Anna going right back into a normal routine is great. A muzzle does have its place, and don't feel bad putting it on.

I'm thrilled both of you are going to have a trainer and work with this boy

Please don't trust this dog at this point in his life! I hope work and training and Rehabilitation gets him in a calm confident way and slowly trust can come back.

A dog that young can be trained and I hope for a happy story.

How is Anna, bites and puncture wounds hurt like hell the next day, all the best to her and your family.

In closing I would say always watch your dog and don't trust him. I never trust my dogs 100%. Every dog is different. Good luck

 

[dh8]

A dog any age from any background can be trained like it's day one.

suzy hans jacks The owner said in one of his last posts that the dog is muzzled whenever he is out of his crate now. If you always muzzle you don't see normal behavior and your fear of him being without the muzzle can easily grow. Muzzle for certain training, yes. All the time doesn't allow you to learn the dog's normal responses and warnings. Dogs do react differently once they understand how the muzzle physically controls their actions. It's also much harder for the owners to get over their fear of him being free if he is muzzled every time he is out of his crate. Feeling more confident because he is physically controlled doesn't always translate into feeling confident and in charge when he isn't physically controlled.

Neutering is a must under the circumstances IMO and whether or not anyone was "in cycle" doesn't matter. Dogs flooded with testosterone but denied the release of mating are more likely to be aggressive. Dogs sensing another dog far away but denied the right to mate will be even more aggressive and short tempered. Once you have had a bite, do you think it's safe to continue the testosterone flood and hope he never senses dogs in heat again and just gets over the frustration of a physical drive to mate that isn't ever fulfilled? If you value your family and your dog, it isn't worth the risk. Neutering is the furthest thing from a mute point when working with dogs who have shown this level of aggression (albeit very predictable aggression) to their owner. I care more about my family's safety than I care about my dog's testicles or ovaries.

Hormones also have nothing to do with being a weaker or stronger owner. The dog either respects you or they do not. When a dog uses you as a pillow, is spoiled and you give him things without his having to earn them and you set them up so they are physically on your level, you are repeatedly telling them they are in charge in dog speak. No surprise when they act as the leader after you tell them they're in charge over and over. It was a very predictable bite. The dog was told he was in charge for a long time and the dog gave 3 warnings before he bit. There was no surprise about his behavior. There were undoubtedly many other smaller warnings along the way that weren't recognized, which is why I recommend a behavior expert. You can't redirect aggression and lead their focus away after you have already told the dog he is the leader.

Taking control back isn't that hard. You assert your control over all things important to the dog. To you it's just a series of small changes you do consistently. Have the dog sit and wait to be invited into or out of the home. The owner is always in front or next to the dog because if you follow, the dog is showing their leadership over you. The dog stays on the floor and uses their own bed. The dog never leans on you or uses you as a pillow. To a dog that is claiming ownership, not the love gesture humans see it as. the dog needs to earn his food by sitting and waiting for a release command to allow him to eat because the alpha controls the food and so on. None of these things have anything to do with hormones. It's about being the leader or the follower. The hormones do in many cases fuel the fire and allow a dog to go aggressive much quicker and harder than an altered dog. Again, I value my family's safety above my dog's testicles or ovaries or of their chest grows an extra inch or not.

it isn't about teaching the dog that the bite or snap is wrong. If you allow things to escalate to that point, you have already let your incorrect messages go on too long and his dangerous behaviors go way too far. It should be about altering your behavior to tell the dog you are in charge instead of telling him he is in charge. His behavior will start to change quickly if you are consistent. He will still love you and be even happier while you are preventing the dog from even thinking of correcting you, let alone his thinking a bite is the next step if you don't respond to his repeated attempts at correcting your behavior.

You can be lax with some dominant dogs (breed doesn't matter) and not have big behavior issues. Some of the biggest behavior and aggression problems can happen when the owners are weak in the dog's eyes (or owners tell the dog he is in charge indirectly) and a dog who was never meant to be an alpha feels forced into that role. Luckily it can be pretty easily be corrected.

 

[Judith]

There has a lot been written and I do agree with most of it but it all boils down to one thing [IMO] you have to take back the power you have and Anna mistakenly given him, you cannot let one thing slide at this time and I am so pleased beyond belief that you and Anna are putting the work in, Anna must not take it personal although he may sense she is slightly weaker with he problem of not being able to have children, dogs know all these things there is no doubt about that, your trainer will help you understand what needs to be done but even the smallest things must be followed, like if he stops in front of you don't ask him to move, don't say "excuse me can I get past" just push past Alpha's are in charge don't need to wait or ask, he eats after you, never before you or with you, he has to wait, these are the small thing that will get you respect back from Baaluer, like what has been said he does not want to do this but has just took on a role where he seen an opening he is confused.

Just have to say I have so much respect to you both for coming and asking for help, and also taking on the responsibility for fixing the problem and keeping him in your lives, hope Anna is feeling better, hope you keep us updated we love happy endings

 

[MyBuddy]

Regardless, of pack leader stuff that some believe, a dog, especially one that you raised from puppyhood, should NOT NEVER EVER be showing this level of aggression toward his "parents". This situation is very serious

No disrespect here, but IMO a dog that shows this level of aggression towards his 'parents' IS because of pack leader 'stuff'. They go hand in hand. Do you think a child grows up automatically respecting their parents? No. If you allow a child to walk all over you at 2 years old, I guarantee you will have a rebellious, hateful teen on your hands. But exert your authority right from the get go, and you are implementing your Pack Leadership and giving them a direction with a loving hand. Tough love, as Suzan says, but love with authority.

some dogs are bred with a serious mental instability.

This may be true in some BYB's. I don't know if its true here, but I don't know where this dog was bought. I think it may be more of a behavior thing, but I don't know if any of us can be sure.

oh, my two year old, unaltered boy that is built like a brick wall, is spoiled like a prince, sleeps in bed with me, gets his way more often than not and is cuddled and kissed constantly, would never think about hurting his mama. This is not about who is in charge. This is about a dog out of control

Sorry, but I DO think this is about who is in charge. Obviously your dog knows who is in charge. He also may be of a completely different nature. Similar to my Buddy. Buddy is very laid back but he also knows who is boss in this house and it is me. There are many different personalities in dogs too and some are more pushy or driven than others and may take a stronger hand. But it may also be a weakness that is being shown by an owner without their even being aware of it. Take that weakness, along with a stronger willed dog and you have an 'incident'.

Dogs need exercise, training and a job with guidance to good behavior. It has a name and it is tough love.

I agree.

In closing I would say always watch your dog and don't trust him. I never trust my dogs 100%.

I love this, Michele! It stopped me dead in my tracks! LOL My first reaction was, "WHAT?? You don't trust your dogs??" LOL I laugh because it took a nano second to think, yea, you are right! If I really really thought about it, I don't either. Of course I don't! And I don't mean that I go around second guessing my dogs (and my horses!) but when you said that it really brought it to the forefront that I am always always always aware!! There is always a 2% thought in my mind with everything my animals do. There is just that much guard that is always UP. I never completely go lax! Even though my dogs and horses are very well behaved pets. And that's no brag. lol Buddy and Kali love most everyone and love the attention of our grandchildren! The twins are here now for the past few days and the dogs are loving the attention. Do I completely forget about everything with them and the dogs? Never. Buddy LOVES to be touched and hugged, even (maybe even especially!) by the children. But do I never give it a moments thought? NO. I'm forever watching! We even tell the children, Give Buddy a hug, so we can take pictures. BUT I am relentless in watching! Watching for if they are doing it gently, if he's 'had enough' ....just everything. There's always that 2%. So no, I Never trust completely. I do it so naturally that I barely even think about it.

Same with my horses. I swear to you that my horses have NEVER kicked and are like dogs. We can walk around them, behind them and under them, you name it. And it's all because of their initial training AND my reinforcing Pack Leadership. They know who's boss! BUT once again, there is always that 2% that is ever watchful. I'm not stupid. I'm always watching and never trusting completely.

Neutering is a must under the circumstances IMO and whether or not anyone was "in cycle" doesn't matter. Dogs flooded with testosterone but denied the release of mating are more likely to be aggressive.

I know this is never going to be the 'end all' solution, but I can't help but think it may help. I know a lot of don't agree on this but I can't help but think that "flooded with testosterone but denied the release of mating" isn't a frustrating thing for an animal. Each situation is different, I understand that.

Hormones also have nothing to do with being a weaker or stronger owner. The dog either respects you or they do not. When a dog uses you as a pillow, is spoiled and you give him things without his having to earn them and you set them up so they are physically on your level, you are repeatedly telling them they are in charge in dog speak.

I think maybe we all have a different definition of 'spoiling'. And I think there are different 'levels' of it too. And I still believe that Pack Leadership plays an important role in that too. Sorry. lol I know I bring that up so much but I feel it is so important. If I look at my life with my dogs and horses, I can see where there are many times people may say they are spoiled. But just like that 2% of not trusting, there is a point where spoiling ends and my leadership takes over.

For instance, when we eat dinner....Buddy will sit or lay on the floor next to me. Sometimes he is sitting up and looking at me (I ignore him) then he may lay down in the same spot. He doesn't beg, drool or even make a sound. So I allow it. It can be looked at as 'spoiling'. That 2% comes into play if he makes a sound or shows eagerness of some sort towards my food. Then it's over. Go away! lol But he never does.

Same with my horses. Lots of people never hand feed a treat or allow them close to you. I do. All the time. But do they walk over me? Not on your life! And they know it. At night when we bring them inside they can all be in their respective stalls with the stall doors wide open and they know not to come out. Not saying they would stay ALL the time. If I left, they might try or if I am getting treats they may be too eager and try to step out but all I have to say is BACK and they know. So I am 'spoiling' with a level of demanding respect.

Sorry to go on and on but this is something I feel strongly about. There is no substitute for being a Pack Leader IMO.

 

[dobex3]

Always hate to read when this happens and sadly if we give advice that is contrary to what one feels is right, even with the best intentions it is taken wrong.



I may have been one of the offenders as I am strongly opposed to pinning a puppy and most likely I said so. Said it could lead to problems later and now you are seeing the result of an incorrect method being used.

While you might neuter him you will find sadly that neutering is not a magical answer and most likely will not resolve the problem as it is already out of hand. - I recommend finding a good Schutzhund trainer who can show you the correct way to work with him. It will b harder now because I am sure at this point your wife is afraid of him and scared for your daughter. Trust is lost and it will take time for him to earn it back. There are a lot of things that went wrong -

First wife getting up put her in dominant position and he resented it as he does not see her as a leader. Spoiling is another problem. These dogs are not for everyone because they are a dominant breed NOT A CHILD and not even HUMAN. They are animal and work on animal instincts. When you treat them like a baby it does not fulfil them but can actually frustrate them to the point of part of your problem.
.

I have to eat crow a bit about what I said.

Dobs4ever articulated most of my thoughts on Doberman training. I do not believe in a lot of the pack leader theories or rather alpha leader METHODS, but having said that Dobermans ARE a very dominant willful breed that will walk all over you if they feel you are weak. I dislike many methods,like the whole alpha roll stuff and missed that in the original post. It very well could be where problems stemmed from.

I do think it sounds like the boy was correcting your wife.

I do absolutely believe in the "not everything in life is free" training. My dogs can be utterly spoiled, but they still know I am in charge. I do not necessarily believe in some of the theories or rather really the METHODS like the alpha roll of pack leader stuff, but I do believe dobermans especially need to understand who is in charge, before they are allowed any privileges or spoiling.

I do respectfully disagree with the spoiling. A dog who shows respect and under control, can be spoiled. Spoiling has not ruined my pup. Awaiting official confirmation, we should have a nice WAC title to add to his name soon.


I give you and your wife a heck of a lot of respect for dedicating yourself to Baalaur and working through this. Its great you already starting working with a trainer! I wish you success. It warms my heart to hear of such utter dedication and bravery on your wife's part.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Glad to hear that you have a K9 trainer to work with and help you. Stay with it and no loving dovey for this boy. He must earn everything and make the good things very positive. Saying a special prayer for you all to come through it.

As you progress you will have a better idea of how it will go. Too many think neutering is the entire answer and it is not. The AR groups have pounded that into everyone's head but I have lived with intact dogs all my life and once a problem has occurred you are past neutering giving you any kind of security or solution. This problem has to be fixed at the training level.

Proper training and exercise are the answer to 99.9% of the problems people face with dominant breed dogs and is why we say they this breed is not for everyone - and pedigree is important because you could know if there have been temperament problems back in the line - and it is why breeders should work and train their dogs to know how to handle them and help you. We are suppose to breed stable temperaments and that means knowing what the heck you are doing. Good breeders rely heavily on a solid pedigree with a track record.

 

[iceman]

Baalaur had been a bit aggressive as he just turned one is not neutered. It's been handlers easily with little force.

I would like to hear more detail on the highlighted part.First start of by explaining what you mean by your first sentence "baalaur had been a bit agressive as he just turned one"

Exactly under what conditions did you observe this aggression?

Today Anna was sitting on the floor with his head in her lap. He would start to growl so she gently redirected him with no negative outcome. After the third time she said "off" and began to stand up. He then attacked her head and face. She has several puncture wounds on her head and one on her eyelid. She said he wouldn't stop. He bit her arms as she tried to get him off of her and outside.
.

I would alo like to hear more on the above highlighted quote..what exactly caused the growl? i totally don't agree or accept such a behavior under any condition from a year old dog...BUT he obviously felt the need to warn your wife before exploding into an attack

You say "she gently redirected him with no negative outcome" and then you say "after the third time she said "off" and began to stand up"

What i understand from your explanation of the event is that whatever happened triggered the dog to growl and your wife did not get the message(s) so she pushed him back three times before the dog finally went into an attack mode..

another question i have is..you say he attacked her head & face...she must have had her face close to the dogs face when the attack happened..did she by any chance eyeball him during the three times pushing back?

 

[MyBuddy]

I do respectfully disagree with the spoiling. A dog who shows respect and under control, can be spoiled. Spoiling has not ruined my pup. Awaiting official confirmation, we should have a nice WAC title to add to his name soon.

I totally agree. With what I highlighted. I don't believe it spoils a dog that is given proper direction along with the spoiling. Its like treating your child for good behavior. I think the problem comes when owners only spoil the dog, with no corrections, no training, no direction. Its like the child that's given EVERYthing in the hopes that they will be 'good' and love their parents. But all they did was gain control over the parents. "Give me more or I will hate you!" lol That's the line I was trying to explain.

My dogs can be utterly spoiled, but they still know I am in charge.

Exactly!

 

[Marinegeekswife]

I'm so sorry this happened and I applaud you both for not only admitting that there was a problem but immediately setting about remedying it. It can be embarrassing to have to tell people that your dog is being so "bad." I know because Spock had issues when he hit maturity (about 9 months). We thought it was aggression, too but true aggression is often very misunderstood. What we were seeing, and likely what you are seeing, too, is a push for who was going to rule the house. Spock would get in our faces and bark, he would push into our physical "bubble" and do everything he could to annoy us into reacting, he would also do something he knew was bad and then play the "you can't get me" game running around just out of reach. All this was him testing us and for a while he was winning. We tried the neutering because we thought it would help. Nope. Did you know it can take months for the hormones to cycle out of the system? That's months that you could be going through this with no improvement at all just hoping that the hormones take out enough of his need to push for leader. When that didn't work we turned to the marvelous folks here.

They turned us on to the Nothing In Life Is Free (NILIF) idea and we started using it. We didn't need to go to the extremes of taking all his toys away but we did make him do things like sit and wait for his dinner, and sit and wait patiently for petting, and do some sort of obedience for a toy, etc. He now had to work for almost every aspect of his life. And when he pushed it too far and wouldn't listen or we were losing our patience we used the crates for a time out. It isn't ideal but it put him safely out of the way while all of us calmed down. He'd go in there for about 5 min, we'd let him out and try again, if he misbehaved it was back in the crate. One night we went back and forth four or five times before he finally got the idea.

We also learned about the prong collar and had him wear it occasionally around house so that when he misbehaved when could give him a pop for a correction and make him understand that was unacceptable. Another thing was also taking away his furniture privileges. If he misbehaved he was immediately made to get off the couch or chair whether he liked it or not. But one of the most important was a lesson for me. Like in your house I was seen as the weaker of the two. He had pretty good respect for my husband, who seems to naturally read and understand dogs, but I had no experience and no "balls" if you will so he didn't see the need to respect me. John correcting him for disrespecting me helped some but it was not a lasting solution. I'd have to be alone with him sometime. So I learned to carry myself with confidence and speak to him with authority. I learned that if I carried myself like I had power, commanded him like I expected him to fully obey me, AND then followed through with appropriate punishment he would listen to me and respect me.

If you start employing these ideas now and really stick strong to them your boy can learn to be a good housemate again. Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[ServiceDogUser]

I am sorry that this has happened, but I think you're on track with working with the trainer and keeping him muzzled when you're not working with him.

Regarding potential health problems being the cause, I would really recommend you go see a veterinary behaviorist. Your average vet isn't aware of a lot of the things that can cause behavioral changes, and they can frequently misinterpret what tests they do perform -- the biggest one for the latter being thyroid issues because most of them aren't up to date on the latest protocols. A vet behaviorist will be able to test for these things, as well as help you with a behavior modification plan that can be used in conjunction with the training you're currently doing.

You could also look for a Certified Applied Animal Behaviorist (CAAB) who can work with your vet to do the same thing. The difference between the vet behaviorist and the CAAB is the certifying agency as well as what kind of schooling they have had. The vet behaviorist will have gone to vet school and undergone addition training and an internship in behaviorism, whereas the CAAB has a master's or PhD in one of several animal behavior science specialties (and therefore isn't a vet).

Find a Board Certified Veterinary Behaviorist « ACVB

Directory of Certified Applied Animal Behaviorists — Animal Behavior Society: Applied Animal Behavior

 

[MyBuddy]

Baalaur had a long training session with a k-9 officer yesterday.

I've been thinking of you and Baalaur and wonder how things are going? I hope things are improving for you!