Anyone have any experience with this breeder?

[kaloric]

Maybe I should have explained in more detail. I have had dozens of dogs and almost every single one of them has been a rescue of some sort. I haven't owned a pure bred, registered dog since 1980. ( a great dane, Princess Sheba Anne) I want to do something different this time. I want a puppy or young dog with some known pedigree and health assurances. I do not want another rescue at this time. In the future, sure.

For some reason I am having trouble putting my thoughts into words. But I hope you understand what I mean.

I understand that perfectly, and it's one of the bigger reasons I got a puppy this go-round, too. There's not a thing wrong with that, either. It's your prerogative to try whatever approach you think will work best for you, and also good you're taking the responsibility to do your homework a bit, since you have a little control over where the cards fall by choosing a good breeder when you're buying a purebred, not just taking whichever dog who happened to be available, as-is.

 

[Ataro]

I agree Rits I forgot to address that issue and it certainly does not mean that the breeding was bad because it produced pet puppies.. I won't even touch on throwing out info on a breeder in Euro when you were not there and it could very well be a rumor unless one has absolute proof of such a statement..

Actually, I contacted the kennel Betelges, and he doesn't offer a health guarantee or replacement on anything except a puppy without proper testicles, full dentition, or with hip problems.

 

[Denissov43]

Now, if you had rescues that weren't as obsessed with control and weren't so condescending, it would be much more appealing to help them out

Now I am going to agree with you here... I also had many rescues I contacted speak to me as if I were under investigation for a G-5 rating in Top Secret service... a bit of over kill and over the top, but I do know that they are doing their best to avoid dogs ending up in animal testing labs, fodder for dog fighting and for any number of illicit activities that people seek to get 'cheap' dogs and purebred dogs for...
so its a fine line one walks regardless of what one is seeking here. I have had some of my best dogs and got them from a Shelter... Ms Lil and Gracie where both from kill shelters and they were marvelous girls! My two cats are both rescues and my 12 yr mutt is a rescue and I had a Neapolitan mastiff female who died at 12 years old who I rescued from a Kill shelter when she was about 3 years old.. so I have as many GOOD stories about rescues as I have horror stories... the point here was for this guy to just look into all options! Not JUST buying a puppy!
whatever he does I hope it works out well for him on every level for them and the dog of course!

 

[Denissov43]

Actually, I contacted the kennel Betelges, and he doesn't offer a health guarantee or replacement on anything except a puppy without proper testicles, full dentition, or with hip problems.

I am sure that He does NOT Offer a health guarantee because he heavily line breeds and now he knows his dogs can and do and quite possibly will die before they are 5 years old...
he said he feels that its better for a dog to be beautiful and die at 5 years of age than to be ugly and live to be 12-13 years, (that is a paraphrased nearly direct quote) so wont be responsible for the heavy DCM lines he is breeding. Several of us who were aware and concerned about this on Facebook approached him about the three dogs we were aware of that had died before they were 12 months of age and one died at 6 months and one was 12 weeks.... all were $2000 puppies plus shipping and all from heavily titled and very famous pedigree's...

 

[Ataro]

I am sure that He does NOT Offer a health guarantee because he heavily line breeds and now he knows his dogs can and do and quite possibly will die before they are 5 years old...
he said he feels that its better for a dog to be beautiful and die at 5 years of age than to be ugly and live to be 12-13 years, (that is a paraphrased nearly direct quote) so wont be responsible for the heavy DCM lines he is breeding. Several of us who were aware and concerned about this on Facebook approached him about the three dogs we were aware of that had died before they were 12 months of age and one died at 6 months and one was 12 weeks.... all were $2000 puppies plus shipping and all from heavily titled and very famous pedigree's...

That's what I said... he would only replace a puppy in certain circumstances ie. if it were missing teeth, testicles, or had extremely bad hips. To me, that does not qualify as a health guarantee, which is why I promptly crossed that kennel off my list (looking for a Euro puppy). Also, from the looks of it he puts his prices up for people outside of Europe (besides shipping), the quote I got was equivalent to $1800 USD (without shipping).

Any breeder can tell you that it's never happened to them before and that their dogs are healthy etc. etc., but what good breeder can sleep at night knowing their dogs die at young ages, and leaving the new owners hanging after taking their cash? It's one thing to offer to rehome or take back the dog, but I think more importantly you should stand behind your stock and guarantee their health. If all their testing comes back clear, then the chances of a dog dying of such serious illnesses at a young age is very rare. I've recently spoken with MANY breeders and I find the dodgy ones always come back with the same excuses "it's too hard to give a guarantee", "I don't have a strict or written guarantee, but I give copies of the parents' test results..." If their dogs really are healthy, then what would they lose by offering a health guarantee?

 

[DreamValley]

I am sure that He does NOT Offer a health guarantee because he heavily line breeds and now he knows his dogs can and do and quite possibly will die before they are 5 years old...
he said he feels that its better for a dog to be beautiful and die at 5 years of age than to be ugly and live to be 12-13 years, (that is a paraphrased nearly direct quote) so wont be responsible for the heavy DCM lines he is breeding. Several of us who were aware and concerned about this on Facebook approached him about the three dogs we were aware of that had died before they were 12 months of age and one died at 6 months and one was 12 weeks.... all were $2000 puppies plus shipping and all from heavily titled and very famous pedigree's...

Knock on wood... Gino (from Betelges lines) is 3.5 and we have not had any health issues with him yet. His hips are perfect (I love his frog pose) and his ball are big LOL
His sire is already 6 and he is healthy. DCM may suddenly appear in any pedigree.

Following all talks/gossips about DCM in Betelges lines I bought Asha with 5 years guarantee from Dobereich kennel. Gino is an angel compare to his sister. He has the most adorable personalities ever... and she is a lot of work. Go figure what you win and what you lose.... Good luck with your choice but don't expect to get a perfect dog.

 

[Ataro]

Knock on wood... Gino (from Betelges lines) is 3.5 and we have not had any health issues with him yet. His hips are perfect (I love his frog pose) and his ball are big LOL

As specified in the guarantee!

 

[Dobs4ever]

I am sure that He does NOT Offer a health guarantee because he heavily line breeds and now he knows his dogs can and do and quite possibly will die before they are 5 years old...
he said he feels that its better for a dog to be beautiful and die at 5 years of age than to be ugly and live to be 12-13 years, (that is a paraphrased nearly direct quote) so wont be responsible for the heavy DCM lines he is breeding. Several of us who were aware and concerned about this on Facebook approached him about the three dogs we were aware of that had died before they were 12 months of age and one died at 6 months and one was 12 weeks.... all were $2000 puppies plus shipping and all from heavily titled and very famous pedigree's...
Read more: http://www.doberman-chat.com/community/index.php?threads/anyone-have-any-experience-with-this-breeder.14139/page-4#ixzz1weSrw47x

May I ask what they died of??? That might make a difference and were necropsy's performed??? Were they out of the same dogs and bitches??? There is always more to a story than FB I would hope. FB may be the downfall of some!!!

Thanks

 

[Denissov43]

Knock on wood... Gino (from Betelges lines) is 3.5 and we have not had any health issues with him yet. His hips are perfect (I love his frog pose) and his ball are big LOL
His sire is already 6 and he is healthy. DCM may suddenly appear in any pedigree.

Following all talks/gossips about DCM in Betelges lines I bought Asha with 5 years guarantee from Dobereich kennel. Gino is an angel compare to his sister. He has the most adorable personalities ever... and she is a lot of work. Go figure what you win and what you lose.... Good luck with your choice but don't expect to get a perfect dog.

DV: we all "knock on wood" no matter what when it comes to the health and longevity of our dogs.. I am quite impressed to see that Dobereich offered you a 5 year HG... that is impressive.
The European lines which are the most famous for their beauty are the least likely to offer a health guarantee for anything related to DCM. It won't happen.... is the hope and if it does happen, the breeders generally look the opposite direction and say 'first time ever'.... its of course a huge lie, but they simply prefer to consider it a numbers game out of a litter and or many litters. Some breeders in Europe are very outstanding and others not so much. Dura Lex Polonia is outstanding and they offer a health guarantee and wills stand behind it, but I doubt that Pride of Russia would. They would most likely look the other way, which is really a serious issue since their puppies are 2000 euro's ($2500) and that is very expensive for a puppy in Europe.
Most reasonable kennels are around 1000-1500 euros at the highest end.
It is a crap shoot these days with the lineages being so heavily line bred at percentages like 25% and more... there is a litter being advertised right now that is a brother to sister litter of a very well known line and they are advertising it as if its something to be so very proud of and sought after... the COI (coefficient of inbreeding, which is the determinant of genetic diversity or lack of it, the lower the number the better the genetic diversity and that is a GOOD thing) this litter which is brother to sister, is over 45%! (less than 15% is optimal for any in or line breeding)
Its insane, but its what breeders do today to get a predictably BEAUTIFUL dog... nothing else matters but 'beauty' it seems today...

 

[Dobs4ever]

Since you got GR from Pride of Russia and were praising there kennel last year why did they not give a health guarantee??? I often find you conclusions lopsided and changing depending on what day it is.

I have posted in the line breeding thread you started. Would it be possible for you to return to that thread and respond?? Or is their some reason you won't answer the questions???

 

[Dobs4ever]

Ataro - you might be surprised at the top breeders who do not give a guarantee. In all honesty you can't guarantee health. there are too many outside factors that can play a part in the over all health of any dog. Kansa has one of the best worded guarantees I have ever seen. They said if you want a guarantee get a car or something like that. I addressed this in the Line breeding thread that Denissovi started. Could you go there and give your opinions on what I posted.

But if he will take a dog back for hips, teeth and testicles that is a guarantee. You will see a wide variety in them and it seems the BYB like aruff ranch give the longest - they have to give something their dogs are so poorlly constructed. But I have not heard of the honoring it when the time came. Something to consider a guarantee is only as good as the breeder. If you trust the breeder and have a good relationship then MOST do stand behind their dogs. I think some on this list are showing that for some reason they seem bitter against some great kennels. Maybe it has something to do with Pride of Russia not giving a guarantee. Makes me wonder if there are problems with Gemma Rose and now they won't stand behind her.

 

[Ataro]

Health guarantees are sadly, a very rare thing in Europe. Of the breeders I wrote to, only about 15% gave a health guarantee (not including the teeth/testicles type) and were prepared to give it in writing. Nevertheless, I'm doing research on DCM sires and going for an outcross for my next pup.

 

[Ataro]

Dobs4ever - I just saw your last post. It's mostly the big kennels that refuse to give a health guarantee, which leads me to think it's more about the money. You can't predict the health of a dog, nor can you the performance of a car (my mother once had a notorious lemon she ended up spending $12,000+ on in repairs), but I still stand by the principle of giving a health guarantee.

Of course not every dog will live to a ripe old age, and especially not the Doberman(n) with all the diseases it's plagued with, but to be okay with collecting money and giving away pups that will pass away in the next couple of years? I don't believe that is acceptable, and were I to breed in the future, I would do all the health testing possible and without hesitation give a health guarantee. If numerous puppies from my litters are dropping dead at a young age, then it is something that I am doing wrong. A breeder who is consistently producing short-lived Doberman(n)s, no matter how many titles they have or beautiful they are, in my books has no business in continuing their 'business' in breeding dogs.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Ataro - I agree on the short lived dogs but I think you also have to look at the # that live. If the majority do die early I would think that in and of itself would put them out of business.

As far as cardio I honesstly think a breeder would be foolish to give a guarantee of any kind beyond 2 years. At that point too many outside factors can kiick in. But then again and we have no definitive test to prove that the dog will not come down with it at some point.

 

[DreamValley]

Ataro,
The health guarantee covers only inherited diseases like hips dysplastia, vwD, cardiomyopathy, etc.
There are so many health problems in Dobermans. It's a tough commitment to say "I would breed only healthy Dobermans"
You may want to watch other breeders before you make your final decision... I heard so many heartbreaking stories and I am not strong enough to get into the Doberman breeding business.

 

[Denissov43]

Maybe I should have explained in more detail. I have had dozens of dogs and almost every single one of them has been a rescue of some sort. I haven't owned a pure bred, registered dog since 1980. ( a great dane, Princess Sheba Anne) I want to do something different this time. I want a puppy or young dog with some known pedigree and health assurances. I do not want another rescue at this time. In the future, sure.

For some reason I am having trouble putting my thoughts into words. But I hope you understand what I mean.

m1aman: your clarification helps... I did not read the entire post or I missed this info before... I am old, so sue me...
Good luck with your search, its the due diligence that makes it all worth while in the end... with more due diligence you will undoubtedly find a puppy that meets all the things you hope to get out of the experience. I have two imports and have learned alot about the breeders in Europe in these past 2.5 years and learned some not so great info about MANY very renowned breeders over there and over here. So the top breeders are all in it for the prestige, and the money.... there are a handful that are in it for the right reasons... literally on both sides of the continent there are excellent, good, ok, bad and terrible breeders who have established names for themselves. I am NOT talking about BYB here and or kennels like Kimbertal that are just huge puppy mills. I am talking about top of the heap name breeders whose experience has tainted them and they are simply in it for the prestige and money... without a doubt that is more true than it is not and I am really far more familiar with European breeders than the North American ones, but North America is a bastion of greed in the dog breeding business too.
There are some breeders here on this forum that have a small kennel and seem to be dedicated to the breed but they do not have the prestigious kennel names... they seem to produce nice dogs with both working and show abilities. So perhaps just inquiring here you might find a great puppy?
D4E is a breeder and so is Von Doom.... I am too, but I will not have puppies for quite sometime! My dogs will all be titled first.... in both working and conformation venues.

 

[Ataro]

Ataro,
The health guarantee covers only inherited diseases like hips dysplastia, vwD, cardiomyopathy, etc.
There are so many health problems in Dobermans. It's a tough commitment to say "I would breed only healthy Dobermans"
You may want to watch other breeders before you make your final decision... I heard so many heartbreaking stories and I am not strong enough to get into the Doberman breeding business.

Of course that is a given, a health guarantee does not cover accidents, or illness caused by mistreatment of the dog etc... it's not an insurance policy. The main problem is that in Europe (in eastern and southern Europe, in particular) health testing is not very rigorous, and breeders don't always tell the truth about their dogs' cause of death.

And yes, it's not always possible to tell if a dog is going to stay healthy, even if it is perfectly fit at the time of breeding. But if I had a good program and had been careful, I wouldn't have a problem with replacing someone's puppy or giving them a refund if it died at the age of 2 as the result of mistakes I made in breeding.

 

[Beau'sMomma !]

The site is pretty informative.

 

[m1aman]

I see the people at Sureshot have updated their puppy page with new pics and commentary.

http://sureshotdobermans.com/Puppies.html

Still nothing about health or lineage etc. that I saw. I clicked on the button, as if to buy, and saw they want $2500 for a puppy now. I think I ruptured something when I read that.

 

[Ataro]

The price went up again? Jeez. If you weren't sure of their motives before, I'm sure it's clear now.