Am I behind? Am I a bad trainer?

[Sage024]

Hello, me again. My boy is 10 months old now and we have been working with a renowned holistic trainer for about 11 weeks. In some ways, kanda is improving. In others not so much. The trainer does not use treats, but rather, leash corrections, verbal ques and energy (attitude/vibe/mannerism). When the trainer is over, my puppy is the perfect dog. It’s taking me forever to achieve similar results though. I know my dog has some anxiety and can be very alpha. The trainer thinks that he needs more “alpha detoxing”. But sometimes I just feel like I’m failing or being abusive. For example, today I was working with him outside in a back alley area where there were few distractions besides my boyfriend who was observing. Kanda (puppy) was so distracted and got fed up after a few minutes of “sit, down, stay”. It got to the point where he was crying and wailing like he was being beaten every time I would tell him “down”. And would gently mouth my hand/the leash, be REALLY loud and seemed very distressed regardless of my attempts to bring him out of his fixation (trainer recommends firm no’s and leash pops etc, sometimes laying him down/pinning him if he gets super worked up and mouthy to get him to calm down). Eventually he was so worked up I decided enough was enough and took him into the dog area of my building to take a break and play fetch so he could run off some anxiety/energy. He was much better after about a half hour of this.

Does anyone else have a difficult puppy like this? I’ve been training for ages and I feel like I’m getting nowhere and backpedaling half the time. Our trainer is very no nonsense with him but fair and has great results but they don’t stick when I try and when he gets worked up and starts wailing I feel like I’m being cruel to him and it breaks my heart. He’s my first dog and my first dobe. I want so badly for him to grow out of this and for the training to pay off so we have a calm, well mannered adult dobe. Am I doing this right? Is this normal? Can anyone relate? I feel like a failure and it brings me to tears sometimes

 

[jazzies mum]

All pretty normal but not so easy to deal with as your first dog/Dobe. I had similar problems early on with my Dobe mix who wasn't my first dog, or even my first working breed dog with high energy. Dobes are different.

I am not a trainer but I will pass on what I picked up along the way.

Anything like a physical tussle, such as the Alpha roll, worked against us. Instead I found things that excited her, like the flirt pole and a game of chuckit, and used those things to reward good behaviour. Food treats worked for teaching basic commands but when asking for obedience with things that she knew well a treat didn't cut it. In a place like the alley you spoke of I carried a toy she liked so she was looking to me with focus. Didn't always work but it was heaps better that any other method I came up with in those early months.

There are some training tools that can back up your commands that are well worth considering. Used properly and with good timing an e-collar and prong collar are worth their weight in gold but you need to do some research and decide for yourself.

Using your body language and attitude does go a long way, but it did take me a while to learn how to get the message across. They read you like a book and if you are feeling frustrated it is better to stop and try again later with a cool head. Another thing that I had to learn was patience!

Don't worry, the memory of the first puppy year does fade with time and you will have the best and most loyal dog you could ever want!

 

[Sage024]

All pretty normal but not so easy to deal with as your first dog/Dobe. I had similar problems early on with my Dobe mix who wasn't my first dog, or even my first working breed dog with high energy. Dobes are different.

I am not a trainer but I will pass on what I picked up along the way.

Anything like a physical tussle, such as the Alpha roll, worked against us. Instead I found things that excited her, like the flirt pole and a game of chuckit, and used those things to reward good behaviour. Food treats worked for teaching basic commands but when asking for obedience with things that she knew well a treat didn't cut it. In a place like the alley you spoke of I carried a toy she liked so she was looking to me with focus. Didn't always work but it was heaps better that any other method I came up with in those early months.

There are some training tools that can back up your commands that are well worth considering. Used properly and with good timing an e-collar and prong collar are worth their weight in gold but you need to do some research and decide for yourself.

Using your body language and attitude does go a long way, but it did take me a while to learn how to get the message across. They read you like a book and if you are feeling frustrated it is better to stop and try again later with a cool head. Another thing that I had to learn was patience!

Don't worry, the memory of the first puppy year does fade with time and you will have the best and most loyal dog you could ever want!

That’s so good to hear. I have nothing to compare this experience to, no measurement of what is normal and what’s an issue. He still pulls on his leash, still reactive and distracted, still jumps on visitors and cries when I leave him. I have no idea if this is normal for his age or not despite all my training. I’m in a small apartment and will be moving in a few weeks to a much larger apartment with a dog park and half acre fenced grassy area that’s dog friendly. I’m hoping the extra space and opportunity for more exercise will help ease some of this

 

[Ukesox]

At that age I would say that most are challenging. They are all different but most share the basic traits of the breed, most notably high intelligence. Totally agree with Jazzies mum regarding any physicality shown towards them…it tends to work against you & achieve nothing positive.
It sounds like he’ s getting bored & frustrated with the basics.Mine has always lost interest in showing me she can follow a basic command after 3 or 4 times...& what’s the point?
When it comes to training I’ve experienced & trained Dobes both with & without food rewards (they are not treats). My conclusion after 6 Dobes is that if a dog is responsive to food rewards, especially in the early months, use them rather than trying to strictly impose your will on it, especially if your actions are ending up with confrontation. After all, what is he getting out of it?
It doesn’t sound to me that your trainer is getting great results for you. Your intuition to let him chill out after getting worked up was the right move…would your trainer have advised this or kept on pushing your pup to be “obedient”.
Bottom line is that you have to live & bond with your dog train in a way that you feel comfortable with & works for you & your dog.

 

[Ravenbird]

What @jazzies mum said. More food as rewards and luring, and make training FUN. What do you do when he jumps on visitors? What do you do if he cries when you leave him? Many Dobes are very vocal (mine is) and you must ignore the whining, never ever give in by going back to him because he's vocalizing. In his mind he's teaching you to come when he cries. Where does he sleep at night? Does he get on the couch with you when you watch TV? Where is he when you eat your dinner? In other words - how are his house manners?

Two mantras I've picked up from this forum regarding all training: Firm but Fair and Persistent and Consistent. Training happens every waking hour, not just during "lesson time". Dog parks will set you back, it's a big NO in my book. YOU need to be looked up to and be the most fun thing in your dogs life.

 

[Ravenbird]

And then there is this, which I posted on its own in another thread. Play is so very important. Although this was written regarding children learning, it really applies equally to our dogs.

 

[Panama]

Gus Navarro from K9 Concepts out of Camilla, GA

 

[Rits]

I would change trainers. Alpha roll is very outdated. You need more play and rewarding the desired behaviors!! If he isn't giving desired behaviors, back up a step and help show him. You may be doing too much at once and he is over stimulated. Work on it in the home first before adding distractions and new environments. Correction used once he fully understands what you want. And it should be appropriate correction. None of this pinning crap. That will ruin your relationship with him and make him frustrated, confused, and possibly fearful of you. No offense, it isn't your fault at all. The trainer is out of his league.

He still pulls on his leash, still reactive and distracted, still jumps on visitors and cries when I leave him.

You are in a key critical time where he is now bigger and now a teenager. It's a challenging time but you should be seeing some progress on a lot of these behaviors you are describing.

Reactivity on the other hand is so difficult to deal with and letting it continue by putting him in situations over his threshold (possibly unintentional) where he ends up blowing up will only make it that much harder to help him overcome it. My girl can be dog reactive. She competes in dog shows, goes to classes, does agility, and all kinds of dog sports with plenty of dogs around her. She doesn't care nor react. It's always strange dogs in unexpected places. Fenzi dog sport academy has some great resources for helping reactive dogs and their owners.

Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - BH110: Dealing with the Bogeyman - Helping Fearful Reactive and Stressed Dogs

Fenzi Dog Sports Academy - BH150: Management for Reactive Dogs

There's actually a lot of good stuff there and you may find answers to your other problem areas!

Try finding a club that actually competes with their dogs and has titles. They should have some classes or referrals for good trainers. There will be varying ways to train dogs, but ultimately the one that seems to be fair to the dog and builds a partnership where the dog WANTS to be working with their owner would be the way I would go.

 

[Sage024]

At that age I would say that most are challenging. They are all different but most share the basic traits of the breed, most notably high intelligence. Totally agree with Jazzies mum regarding any physicality shown towards them…it tends to work against you & achieve nothing positive.
It sounds like he’ s getting bored & frustrated with the basics.Mine has always lost interest in showing me she can follow a basic command after 3 or 4 times...& what’s the point?
When it comes to training I’ve experienced & trained Dobes both with & without food rewards (they are not treats). My conclusion after 6 Dobes is that if a dog is responsive to food rewards, especially in the early months, use them rather than trying to strictly impose your will on it, especially if your actions are ending up with confrontation. After all, what is he getting out of it?
It doesn’t sound to me that your trainer is getting great results for you. Your intuition to let him chill out after getting worked up was the right move…would your trainer have advised this or kept on pushing your pup to be “obedient”.
Bottom line is that you have to live & bond with your dog train in a way that you feel comfortable with & works for you & your dog.

Great advice, and much appreciated. I think the trainer would have given him a short break, as he encourages not overwhelming the dog or having them shut down on you mentally. He is definitely very food motivated. Listens great if there’s incentive, but easily distracted outside and pretty reactive to dogs (not necessarily in a negative way, he just gets really charged up and wants to get to them, but I don’t trust him because he’s intact and humps dogs if given the chance).

I know you have to be no nonsense with them but due to my lack of experience I always worry about being too harsh on him etc

 

[Sage024]

What @jazzies mum said. More food as rewards and luring, and make training FUN. What do you do when he jumps on visitors? What do you do if he cries when you leave him? Many Dobes are very vocal (mine is) and you must ignore the whining, never ever give in by going back to him because he's vocalizing. In his mind he's teaching you to come when he cries. Where does he sleep at night? Does he get on the couch with you when you watch TV? Where is he when you eat your dinner? In other words - how are his house manners?

Two mantras I've picked up from this forum regarding all training: Firm but Fair and Persistent and Consistent. Training happens every waking hour, not just during "lesson time". Dog parks will set you back, it's a big NO in my book. YOU need to be looked up to and be the most fun thing in your dogs life.

When he jumps up on me or visitors he gets a no and is shrugged off/ignored or if it can be predicted I’ll lift my knee to block him. If he mouths he’s told no and redirected which usually doesn’t work and requires me to leash him and go through commands or to walk away and leave him. His manners are still pretty rough. He sleeps in his crate and is only allowed on the couch in the evening when I’m hanging out there to wind down and invite him up, otherwise he is pulled off. And when he barks from his crate I tell him quiet or he’s ignored. I typically try to minimize this by prepping him before I leave with a frozen kong or something like that

 

[Sage024]

And then there is this, which I posted on its own in another thread. Play is so very important. Although this was written regarding children learning, it really applies equally to our dogs.

View attachment 125072

Oops wrong reaction emote - meant to heart. But thts interesting! Maybe when we are leash training I should try rewarding him with play/toys. Although he’s not great a letting go/leaving it

 

[Ukesox]

It sounds like you’re doing lots right but I have to agree with Rits re the training method. It seems like what you are getting is a dog that responds well to your trainer but not to you.
There is (an old school) line of thought that food rewards are somehow cheating. My latest Dobie was the biggest little monster imaginable, even by my previous Dobies standards. She reacted to virtually everything, like yours,not in an aggressive way. Food, and sometimes toys, used as a both as distraction & reward, has helped enormously in helping to overcome her reactivity.

 

[Ukesox]

Oops wrong reaction emote - meant to heart. But thts interesting! Maybe when we are leash training I should try rewarding him with play/toys. Although he’s not great a letting go/leaving it

I bet if a bit of cheese or sausage was on offer you’d have taught him to release the toy within 5 minutes.

 

[Sage024]

I bet if a bit of cheese or sausage was on offer you’d have taught him to release the toy within 5 minutes.

Oh absolutely lol he’s a big fan of any fresh foods

 

[Sage024]

It sounds like you’re doing lots right but I have to agree with Rits re the training method. It seems like what you are getting is a dog that responds well to your trainer but not to you.
There is (an old school) line of thought that food rewards are somehow cheating. My latest Dobie was the biggest little monster imaginable, even by my previous Dobies standards. She reacted to virtually everything, like yours,not in an aggressive way. Food, and sometimes toys, used as a both as distraction & reward, has helped enormously in helping to overcome her reactivity.

That’s one thing I noticed, particularly recently. Today for example, we were playing in our building dog run off leash. And a female poodle mix came out off leash and went right up to kanda. She would Yelp and squeal whenever he sniffed her or got close but she kept coming back up to us even though he was on a leash. Usually he would go absolutely nuts, but I had a tug toy and kept getting his attention to it. 3/4 of the time he chose toy over the very distracting female

 

[Rits]

When he jumps up on me or visitors he gets a no and is shrugged off/ignored or if it can be predicted I’ll lift my knee to block him. If he mouths he’s told no and redirected which usually doesn’t work and requires me to leash him and go through commands or to walk away and leave him.

How does rewarding him look like when it comes to you or visitors? Do you reward him at all during this time? Even a split second of all 4 on the floor, mark yes, toss treat on the floor. That's the beginning of having a well mannered boy when people come through the door! Keep marking the correct behavior and reward for a small period of time. Then put him up so he can digest what happened and gives you a chance to visit your guests without having to focus all your attention on him. If he knows place or spot and can stay on his bed/mat then you can do that while you are visiting. Next time ask for more requirements of him by delaying the marker word a second or two longer. Keep working up to him keeping four on the floor until he is keeping all 4 for a decent amount of time. You can increase the pressure and proof his new learned good boy behavior by adding in some excitement with either some movement (kinda bounce on your toes or swing your arms in the air) or carry a bag or item in your hand held up high. Same thing, reward for four on the floor even if it's for a few seconds.

You got this! Look for the moment of good in him and build on that! If you only correct, you will be correcting him for life. We want to teach him what you want by rewarding as it will stick much more than correcting.

 

[Sage024]

How does rewarding him look like when it comes to you or visitors? Do you reward him at all during this time? Even a split second of all 4 on the floor, mark yes, toss treat on the floor. That's the beginning of having a well mannered boy when people come through the door! Keep marking the correct behavior and reward for a small period of time. Then put him up so he can digest what happened and gives you a chance to visit your guests without having to focus all your attention on him. If he knows place or spot and can stay on his bed/mat then you can do that while you are visiting. Next time ask for more requirements of him by delaying the marker word a second or two longer. Keep working up to him keeping four on the floor until he is keeping all 4 for a decent amount of time. You can increase the pressure and proof his new learned good boy behavior by adding in some excitement with either some movement (kinda bounce on your toes or swing your arms in the air) or carry a bag or item in your hand held up high. Same thing, reward for four on the floor even if it's for a few seconds.

You got this! Look for the moment of good in him and build on that! If you only correct, you will be correcting him for life. We want to teach him what you want by rewarding as it will stick much more than correcting.

Good points! Usually when guests come over, it’s more corrections than anything else. Correcting jumping/mouthing and the “reward” is the guest greeting him. Or telling him good boy. Maybe it would be better with a stronger marker for good behavior, like a food reward. I’ve been so focused on correcting bad behaviors that I probably haven’t been rewarding the good ones enough

 

[Rits]

Good points! Usually when guests come over, it’s more corrections than anything else. Correcting jumping/mouthing and the “reward” is the guest greeting him. Or telling him good boy. Maybe it would be better with a stronger marker for good behavior, like a food reward. I’ve been so focused on correcting bad behaviors that I probably haven’t been rewarding the good ones enough

Trust me, it's easy to overlook. I was in the same boat with my past dogs, lots of correcting and wondering why I could never walk my girl without a prong collar. Now that you realize that, you now can be quicker to reward those good behaviors more often. Just remember, in the beginning it'll be only for a moment. Capture it with a marker word, Yes! And toss treat on the floor. Gradually build on that with longer duration and more exciting distractions. Then play after a good session!

Letting him visit your guests as reward can be ok. Just be aware if he gets too excited (jumps up, climbs over people etc) and is able to continue to visit them, it will make the previous lesson a little confusing. The reward also becomes the attention of other people and not you, and that could possibly have him seek out the attention of other people in public vs focusing on you. I don't mind my house guests greeting my girl but something to think about if he pulls or gets excited when people are around in public.

 

[Sage024]

Trust me, it's easy to overlook. I was in the same boat with my past dogs, lots of correcting and wondering why I could never walk my girl without a prong collar. Now that you realize that, you now can be quicker to reward those good behaviors more often. Just remember, in the beginning it'll be only for a moment. Capture it with a marker word, Yes! And toss treat on the floor. Gradually build on that with longer duration and more exciting distractions. Then play after a good session!

Letting him visit your guests as reward can be ok. Just be aware if he gets too excited (jumps up, climbs over people etc) and is able to continue to visit them, it will make the previous lesson a little confusing. The reward also becomes the attention of other people and not you, and that could possibly have him seek out the attention of other people in public vs focusing on you. I don't mind my house guests greeting my girl but something to think about if he pulls or gets excited when people are around in public.

Good point! I never thought about guests greeting him at home making him more reactive to people in public. I’ll make a point to have guests ignore him when they first come in and for me to be the one dealing rewards for good behavior