Advice please - ADHD

[Tropicalbri's]

However, when she went for the other dog a few days ago and managed to pull down a big fence to get to it, she was wearing this collar and was barking constantly and viciously. She was so focused and intent on getting this other dog that she ignored all of the zaps. It really was frightening.
As a side note, the collar didn’t work on walks. Walks are just too over stimulating, and so we don’t do them anymore. She has half an acre to run around in at home, so has play time and exercise in an environment she knows, without extra stimulants. This works well, and my other dog has a few hiding places that she runs to when the crazy kicks in.

One thing I learned with my male with the e collar was it can drive them to red zone behavior when they are getting a higher stim with every bark. They will go nuts. It caused Bogie to redirect his frustration of getting an elevated stim to attacking my female, my older Beagle that was like a mother to him and even going off on my husband. I had to run in and get the collar off him. It took a lot of reconditioning him over the next year to get him over that experience with the collar.
I applaud you seeing the triggers to her behavior and trying to work out a solution. My two are very high drive and will get amped easily so like you mentioned we approached their training in a different manner. Thank goodness their trainers and behaviorist were able to help us understand what caused the behaviors and how to use those behaviors to a positive form of training, redirecting and an appropriate outlet for their energy.
My two do not have ADHD but we do have dogs that are in the practice that do have it. It is very challenging to say the least but even more so when they are a breed as intelligent, active and dominant as a Doberman. We found that extreme consistency was key for their everyday life and training. You see it with kids that have ADD, ADHD. When they are over stimulated it becomes difficult to calm them and reason with them. I have seen kids throw tantrums, become aggressive and angry because they lack the ability to control these outbursts. It is the same with animals and can become dangerous at times. I know a few owners with overly or easily stimulated Dobermans that have joined an IPO club and got trainers to work with them to stimulate, tire them with working/training. It takes longer in the training aspect to teach them to respond to commands but progress has been positive through strong consistency with training and their everyday life. They depend strongly on knowing their boundaries and home life will always be the same. Again that is what helps children learn to handle their emotional turmoil when moods change.

I hope you do get some comprehensive testing and blood panels done and even an MRI of the brain to rule out any underlying medical conditions that could be accelerating her outbursts. I hate giving medications but at times when all else is ruled out it may become necessary to get her over this hump and settled as well as focused.
Structured playtime is another form of training that helps with excess energy coupled with excess emotional energy.

Keep us posted on her progress and I truly wish you the very best in getting this resolved for both her and your family.

 

[VicDobee]

I am in Australia too and empathise with your problem. If you have a good vet you trust and they recommend some type of medication it might be worth a try. Just my opinion though as I haven't had any experience with ADHD in dogs.

However, regarding a prong collar. This is frowned upon in Australia, but is not illegal to use in a humane manner. It might be worth researching this online to get some idea of how it works and the basic training methods if you haven't already. Having said that, it isn't recommended for dogs that are dog aggressive. Just letting you know that you can acquire a prong collar in Australia via online sellers if you feel it might help you.

Thank you. I actually thought long and hard about the collar and discussed it in length with my vet, as I know they are frowned upon. That’s why I went with one that gives off a warning sound before a zap, which has been perfect since she is able to respond to the sound and the zap is now very very rare. In fact, simply putting the collar on her now is enough to calm her down a lot of the time. Thanks Pavlov!!! Since seeing her get vicious and ignore the zaps, I’ve been nervous that the zaps may now act to escalate her, so I’ve actually taken the battery out. She still calms when I put it on her and is mostly keeping herself calm, but she hasn’t been exposed to any excessive stimulants since, so hard to tell if this is working yet.

 

[DanBar]

Two things. FIrst, having a large lot is NOT hard exercise. Some Dobermans, especially the type you are describing NEED HARD exercise daily. Not a walk. HARD exercise. Some suggestions are walking her while letting her pull weight with a weight pull harness, running with a quad, finding a lonely road and running beside car (I used to do that for years without an issue till I wised up and moved to 20 fenced acres.)

I agree with you that some dogs, especially Dobermans, can be VERY easily distracted. These dogs can be very frustrating to train. I feel for you. At the animal shelter where I worked 20 years, we called dogs like yours "spaz" and they were there because, well, they were idiots and no sane person wanted them.

I wouldn't suggest a shock collar (i.e. called by all kinds of silly politically correct names). That is not going to change her DNA. I would try tiring her out more.

Second, if you do decide to euthanize this dog be warned that PETA has made huge headway into getting into the curriculum of the vet schools. This "new age" of vets coming out of school are force fed "no kill" till they are terrified to humanely euthanize a dog, even when it is for the dog's own good. I JUST had this happen to a friend of mine who I finally talked into euthanizing his severely shy/neurotic GSD who was so nervy swatting a fly or raising your voice to answer someone in another room would cause the dog to run terrified from the room, hide in bedroom and pant. This was with a really gentle, dedicated, pure positive trainer owner... The dog was a mess, not happy, and stressed. It finally nipped a grandkid in fear. When he tried to have the dog euthanized to end its unhappy life (yes, he had tried drugs) two vets in a row refused and let him know what a horrible person he was. He wasn't prepared for this and was so upset he left the dog at the second vet and they handed it out the backdoor to some retail rescue who will now sell it to the public for $$$. (Yes, I have stepped in and am trying to get the poor dog out of the "no kill hell" it is locked into.

So, IF you feel that is the best answer, be prepared to stand your ground and do what is best for your dog - not some nut who wants to feel like a hero.
Best of luck to you and your dog.

 

[VicDobee]

Two things. FIrst, having a large lot is NOT hard exercise. Some Dobermans, especially the type you are describing NEED HARD exercise daily. Not a walk. HARD exercise. Some suggestions are walking her while letting her pull weight with a weight pull harness, running with a quad, finding a lonely road and running beside car (I used to do that for years without an issue till I wised up and moved to 20 fenced acres.)

I agree with you that some dogs, especially Dobermans, can be VERY easily distracted. These dogs can be very frustrating to train. I feel for you. At the animal shelter where I worked 20 years, we called dogs like yours "spaz" and they were there because, well, they were idiots and no sane person wanted them.

I wouldn't suggest a shock collar (i.e. called by all kinds of silly politically correct names). That is not going to change her DNA. I would try tiring her out more.

Second, if you do decide to euthanize this dog be warned that PETA has made huge headway into getting into the curriculum of the vet schools. This "new age" of vets coming out of school are force fed "no kill" till they are terrified to humanely euthanize a dog, even when it is for the dog's own good. I JUST had this happen to a friend of mine who I finally talked into euthanizing his severely shy/neurotic GSD who was so nervy swatting a fly or raising your voice to answer someone in another room would cause the dog to run terrified from the room, hide in bedroom and pant. This was with a really gentle, dedicated, pure positive trainer owner... The dog was a mess, not happy, and stressed. It finally nipped a grandkid in fear. When he tried to have the dog euthanized to end its unhappy life (yes, he had tried drugs) two vets in a row refused and let him know what a horrible person he was. He wasn't prepared for this and was so upset he left the dog at the second vet and they handed it out the backdoor to some retail rescue who will now sell it to the public for $$$. (Yes, I have stepped in and am trying to get the poor dog out of the "no kill hell" it is locked into.

So, IF you feel that is the best answer, be prepared to stand your ground and do what is best for your dog - not some nut who wants to feel like a hero.
Best of luck to you and your dog.

Hahaha. My nick name for her is di*khead. I called a friend a di*khead recently and she actually thought I was talking to her and came for a pat.
The hard training is something that I’ve tried, but in general, the more exercise she gets, the more stimulated and energetic she becomes. I have to gauge her reactions and stop when I see signs that she is starting to become over stimulated. I spent a long time with the weight pulling idea, first getting her used to the harness, then getting her used to having some thing attached to it, then getting used to pulling something. I thought I was getting somewhere and was loving the process. But adding a bit of weight ended up in a stimulated and out of control dog that sent me flying and gave me a very small crack in my elbow. We gave up after that. I also tried the running next to a vehicle thing, but as she loves to play with wheels and try to jump under them, it was a bit risky. I tried once with my bicycle, but we didn’t manage to get out the front gate. We didn’t try that one again. One thing that did come from that though is her favourite game of chasing the wheelbarrow. She loves trying to attack the wheel as I run around with it. And remarkably, whilst she is focused on the wheel, she doesn’t get too over stimulated and tends to ignore other things going on around here. So we have daily wheelbarrow races around the garden. I know it’s not hard exercise, but along with stick and ball chasing, I can get her to a point where she starts to get tired, as long as I keep her level of stimulation in check.

 

[Kaiser2016]

What an interesting thread.

A question for both @VicDobee and @Rodyboy - What kind of lines are your Dobermans from?

There is a member here who has had 4 or 5 Dobermans in the past, and he found his latest pup to be very different from the others. Turned out the pup is from South American lines which are said to be harder/sharper, so, to me, it helped to explain a lot of what he was seeing. Hopefully @C908 can weigh in.

I often joke about Doberman puppies being ‘psycho puppies’ because the breed standard calls for a certain level of (nuclear) energy. I also joke that they should come with warning labels because they are definitely challenging dogs to manage.

 

[WiglWerm]

@VicDobee you should try a flirt pole. I bought a horse whip from the feed store and tied a rag to the end. WILL wear a dobie out in NO TIME, and you won't even break a sweat!
BUT my girls MOST FAVORITE thing to do is RUN on a bike ride. I bought the bike tow leash... biketowleash.com and with a little training has become the MOST FUN for her AND me! She pulls me all over the place at break neck speeds! THIS wears her out COMPLETELY! Oh and they can't pull you over....excellent construction.

 

[GennyB]

I am so glad you wrote this post. Thank you so much. It’s good to know there is someone else who is dealing with this issue. I was starting to get a bit frustrated by people saying they have never heard of ADHD in dogs and then insinuating that it doesn’t exist by suggesting I try training her. I thought about going on a big rant, but realised that my focus was being drawn towards defending my dog rather than dealing with the situation at hand. Thank you.

I think the biggest thing you're running into is the fact ADHD has been soooo over diagnosed in people. Is it a thing? Probably, just not as common as it is diagnosed.
As far as ADHD in dogs. if you research it like I did when I first heard of it, you'll learn that a good percentage of the time the root of the problem in found in a medical problem or a training problem.
It's easy to take things personally, especially in print. Voice inflection and emotion aren't there so it can be difficult to decipher what people are actually saying. There is tons of experience across this board that try to help other owners with problems so when reading reply's try not to take it personally, they are trying to help.

 

[Rodyboy]

The flirt pole is a great idea! It's like the dobes answer to the cat feather on a stick. Great idea wigwerm!

 

[Ivory Skye]

VicDobee,
I just joined this chat not long ago and have been waiting to see a post like this. We have a very loving, beautiful dobe that we love very much. I have had a black eye, a lump on my forehead, my finger almost cut off from a leash, knocked down at least three times on our back patio which is cement, dragged across the front yard, AND I am considered a senior citizen. I live in the US in Ohio and we have a vet that works closely with behaviorlists. Buddy spent a day with our vet and was observed and diagnosed with ADHD. We have had 5 previous dobermans. I have never dealt with anything like this. Two of our dobermans were rescues that were abused. They had their problems but nothing like this. We had three puppies adopted from six to eight weeks. We had one I called slap happy, the other ones were just energetic dobes with all the traits you expect to see. None of them, not one, had Buddy's problem of non focus. Our vet loves this breed, he has told us that and I can see it when he works with him. In the early days of tKing him to the vet the techs or our vet would help us take him outside. We have worked and worked with him through training and daily work of sit and waiting for him to focus on us for every command. I have had little time for else. You should see my house! Doc said try medication, we rejected for months. When he turned about 18 months we opted for medication. My husband is a right leg amputee and Buddy was on leash while he was in an outdoor chair, Buddy being supercharged on some distraction pulled him and the chair over and hubby weighs over 200 lbs. That was IT! Now, it is not the cure all beat all of the century but it does help, attention span is better and also helping as he ages. He won't have to remain on it. Just long enough to learn a calm down point which we help him to do. Now, we were thinking of rehoming and asked our vet what to do and he said, this was at about a year old, and he said Don't Put Him Down, we weren't even thinking of that yet, and he said he would help us rehome him. A Doberman rescue tagged him as unadoptable, and a person wanted to keep him outside.......no dobe can survive outside..... The weather snow and such and their stron human attachment. Sooooooooo what do we do? Put him down? We couldn't do that. Although at times, with my patience wearing thin........you know. Anyway, last vet visit was the best and our vet says he is a different dog. Could not believe it was the same dog. It has been a lot of work and time and I have three loads of laundry that need folded, and black hair everywhere, but he is catching on. It is a difficult problem and time and patience is the only answer. We felt for a long time we were not good for him but our vet told us we have really been good for him and he was glad we decided to keep him. I don't know if my experience can help you, being retired has given us the time but it is one day at a time, over and over with the training every day. Keep low on outside stimulants. Walks can be way to stimulating. They need to run and play in safe setting for you. Let us know, we do understand.

OMG I love this site. So much to relate to! People with other dogs have no idea. I too have had three fat lips, an egg on my head and a black eye so far in under six months.

 

[Rodyboy]

Kaiser, I am still looking for Buddy's papers. I know he is CKC, that I remember. My hubs put them in his officea place where paper goes to die. Ivory Skye, I just got a big lump on my head making his bed, he zigged I zagged, we met in the middleDobes are a total trip, it was only out of curiosity. Also my vet said one of his problems too is his intelligence. Now I don't see this as a problem, I just know they need more work because of it and more discipline. Where they get these lists on the intelligence of a breed baffles me. My six dobes have blown me away with what they understand and can do. Zoe was taught by my hubs to say mom......no joke, that is how she asked to go out. It wasmom,mom,mom,mom like a two year old. Hubs thought it so funny

 

[Ivory Skye]

Kaiser, I am still looking for Buddy's papers. I know he is CKC, that I remember. My hubs put them in his officea place where paper goes to die. Ivory Skye, I just got a big lump on my head making his bed, he zigged I zagged, we met in the middleDobes are a total trip, it was only out of curiosity. Also my vet said one of his problems too is his intelligence. Now I don't see this as a problem, I just know they need more work because of it and more discipline. Where they get these lists on the intelligence of a breed baffles me. My six dobes have blown me away with what they understand and can do. Zoe was taught by my hubs to say mom......no joke, that is how she asked to go out. It wasmom,mom,mom,mom like a two year old. Hubs thought it so funny

ha ha that's awesome mom! I bet Hubs thought it was funny. Typical!!
Last two days, I have been so much firmer on Skye and already she is responding so much better. However the beach is still the real challenge for her to pay attention to me. We'll get there, I know we will.
I swear they can read our minds, they are so in tune with our energy.
Skye along with being super boistrous is a real sooky bubba you can tell when she gets tired, she whines a little and then comes to me and plonks her two front legs on my lap and just sits there. I know she wants me to pick her up like when she was little so she can sleep on my lap. She's just too big now, we've tried hence one of my fat lips. ha ha