2yo M w/ Random (fear/overexcited?) aggression

[OdinTheDoberman]

Hi guys. I’m trying to get a Headstart on the situation before anything bad happens.



We have an overly loving, goofy, intact male dobie that’s has recently started to exhibit a strange form of aggression - initially to extended family members who we knows and love but hasn’t seen for a long time and now recently towards me (dad - owner) when I come back from a trip.



A little back story on Odin. Raised from 10 weeks by my wife and I with a kitten in the house. Breeder was a bit shady (we found out after the fact) and Odin came home with Giardia that was difficult to control. By 4months we started obedience training and he was a rockstar with it. He was very well socialized during his first 1.5 years of life with regards to dogs, people, kids, etc. Very active dog who goes on long hikes frequently and gets to run around off leash at full speed every night (for the most part).



Until these episodes (which I’ll get into shortly) he’s never shown an ounce of aggression. Even when other dogs have approached him very aggressively he hasn’t reacted to them not towards another person.



First weird episode: we came back from about a 10 day trip while my mom house sat and cared for Odin. They had a great time. When I walked in the door he was bouncing off the walls with excitement but after a few seconds he lowered his head, froze up and the hair on the back of his neck stood up a bit - no growling nothing. So I just kinda ignored him and he was back to normal



Second episode was a few months later when my mom came to visit and he hadn’t seen her for a while. I wasn’t home but my

Wife told me he initially went up to my mum excited and she matched his energy and suddenly he did the same thing. Head down, froze up except she kept petting him and he started to growl very aggressively which freaked my wife out. She put him outside until I got home and then he was fine.



There have been 1 or 2 episodes after that of him doing that with people coming to the house but never consistently and never in any pattern (male vs female, young vs old, known vs strangers)



Now most recently this past weekend I got back from a 2 day trip. Wife wasn’t home so I was the first to greet Odin who in typical fashion was going crazy and all over me. Suddenly he did the same thing. Lowered his head, tensed up with the raised hair. This time I wanted to snap him out of it so I told him “No” a few times and “Leave it”. His demeanor didn’t change so I went out his head when he truly snarled and snapped. He didn’t make contact but this was the first time he’s ever been outwardly aggressive towards me and it shook me. Particularly because my wife is 35 weeks and due very soon.



Of course next step is Vet, full blood panel and perhaps a behaviorist but I never expected this to ever happen. I’ve always been a very assertive owner, he’s been trained with a prong color and e-collar when needed and he’s great off leash. I’m also torn between neutering him since this seems to me like he gets overly stimulated / excited which triggers aggression and I’ve heard that could actually worsen with neutering.



This dog is like my son. I thought I did everything right. This is killing me. Wondering if anyone has any insight or experience with a similar situation? Greatly appreciate you taking the time to read!

 

[MyBuddy]

Wow. I'm as baffled as you. It sounds like you did so many wonderful things in his upbringing. Socialized, exposed to a lot of different things, and he seems like a happy dog. This Behavior would frighten and confuse me too.

One of the things I thought about was since it seems to happen when you come back from a trip, maybe he smelled something on you that he didn't like. But what?! He's so happy to see you and then freezes and goes into this state. Almost as if he suddenly smells something that puts him on alert.

The only other thing I would think of is something Medical. Something that triggers when he gets excited. But again, I have no idea what. I'm just trying to put myself in the situation to understand his actions.

What were all the results on the blood work? Did the vet come up with anything? What makes it a little more urgent is you're going to have a little one arriving soon. It's good you're trying to get a handle on this now. I wish I had more answers for you.

I would be vigilant on everything leading up to that moment to see if there is some kind of pattern. I hope others can give you more advice. Will be thinking of you.

 

[MyBuddy]

Particularly because my wife is 35 weeks and due very soon.

Do you think he somehow senses her pregnancy and is being protective toward her? Just throwing things out there...

 

[MyBuddy]

Rereading your post it seems like it all happens when someone comes into the home. Even you after a trip. It's almost like you're bringing in some kind of a scent that he alerts to. It's very weird. There's got to be some kind of common denominator.

 

[Cferg]

You need to bring a professional into your home to see the behavior. There is probably something happening that you can’t see.

But since he doesn’t move just growls and snaps. My first thought is he’s guarding something. How did you react to his snapping at you? And then what did he do?

 

[Ravenbird]

This is very strange behavior, I'm sorry it's happening. Indeed you seem to have done everything right and have a good relationship with him. How long after the head lowering/growling does it take for him to get back to normal? Seconds? Minutes? Does he stay suspicious and unlike himself for longer than that or does he just kind of snap out of it?

I would read up on Rage Syndrome - there are a few discussions here about it (use the Search button) or you can do an internet search and see if it sounds familiar. You are right to do blood work first and foremost, but it seems to be always triggered by over-stimulation.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Yes, this seems abnormal.

I was about to mention what my Dobe (2 Dobes ago) had. He never once did it toward me, but twice on my wife, and on guests in the house. He would geet this far away look in his eye and then would lash out aggressively.

So, it might've been considered Rage Syndrome, I don't know. I found out from the breeder, whose good friend had kept my Dobe's only littermate, that he had to be put down a few years prior by what she (the breeder is a veterinarian) described as "violent seizures, or rages".

As it happens, and as I found out after the fact from my next breeder: My Dobe who had that problem, well, his sire was described as "one of the most inbreddy freddies out there". Ha. Funny, not funny. That sire was at the time of breeding a 16 time Schutzhund IIII and on his way to becoming the national tracking champion (this is what the breeder and her good friend said, and believe me, they know what they're talking about). So, my Dobe's obedience and protection capability was wicked good, but I guess if you keep doubling down on breeding to bring out desired traits you run into other problems.

 

[JanS]

Second episode was a few months later when my mom came to visit and he hadn’t seen her for a while. I wasn’t home but my

Wife told me he initially went up to my mum excited and she matched his energy

This seems to me like it could be energy he's feeding off your mom when she gets excited too. I have guests stay calm when they come in so the dogs don't think the more excited they get, the more attention they're going to get. I have guests sort of ignore them until they settle down, then they can get some attention.

 

[OdinTheDoberman]

Wow I am so impressed by this community! I can't believe how quickly people have come to our aid and provided their insights - this is truly heartwarming. I'll try and address everyone's questions / concerns with more updated / detailed information below per response:

*It certainly seems like he's always his normal happy self and the episodes have happened when he's being coddled / pet in that super excited state which leads me to think this must have something to do with over stimulation - which again I worry may worsen with Neutering.

*The other idea (when it pertains to his aggression towards me only) I'm wondering if me being gone from the house for more than a day or 2 leads to his hormones taking over and he starts to think of the house as his territory? Without the constant reminder of me being around his dominance might start to kick in and maybe its a challenge-type behavior? Either way I can't risk this with a new-born arriving in a few weeks

- Re the Scent concern: I've come home with scents from multiple different dogs without issue in the past so I'm not sure if it's some thing in particular that he's smelling. Will deff bring this up to the Vet

- Re my wife being pregnant: The first few episodes did occur before she was pregnant but her and I did think about this. It does seem like the escalation in his aggression happened once she was pregnant. I do have to mention that he is the prototypical one-person dog as in he is much more attached to me vs my wife

- Re bringing a professional into the home: I have my previous trainer coming over to give us her thoughts on Friday and at the vet appointment next week I will be asking about a certified behaviorist

- Re my reaction to his most recent / most aggressive outbust: I responded with multiple loud NO's but I didn't strike him. Unfortunately he didn't have his Ecollar on at the time so I wasn't able to provide a quick "correction" that may have snapped him out of it and I didn't think to try giving him a toy at the time since I was still pretty shocked

- Re the duration of the episode: It certainly last minutes at a minimum (not just a split second). Even afterwards he wouldn't come near me and just stayed on his dog bed

- Re "He would geet this far away look in his eye": My wife and I notice something like this with each episode. Ears go back, hair climbs and its as if he cowers but gives this weird "side eye" look

- Re him feeding off energy: We think you're absolutely correct and we're looking for early signs to ensure that we can ignore him if and see if that fixes the behavior

Sadly our Vet Clinic is so backed up I can't get him in for bloodwork until next week. Haven't noticed any issue since this post

 

[OdinTheDoberman]

Wow. I'm as baffled as you. It sounds like you did so many wonderful things in his upbringing. Socialized, exposed to a lot of different things, and he seems like a happy dog. This Behavior would frighten and confuse me too.

One of the things I thought about was since it seems to happen when you come back from a trip, maybe he smelled something on you that he didn't like. But what?! He's so happy to see you and then freezes and goes into this state. Almost as if he suddenly smells something that puts him on alert.

The only other thing I would think of is something Medical. Something that triggers when he gets excited. But again, I have no idea what. I'm just trying to put myself in the situation to understand his actions.

What were all the results on the blood work? Did the vet come up with anything? What makes it a little more urgent is you're going to have a little one arriving soon. It's good you're trying to get a handle on this now. I wish I had more answers for you.

I would be vigilant on everything leading up to that moment to see if there is some kind of pattern. I hope others can give you more advice. Will be thinking of you.

Wow I am so impressed by this community! I can't believe how quickly people have come to our aid and provided their insights - this is truly heartwarming. I'll try and address everyone's questions / concerns with more updated / detailed information below per response:

*It certainly seems like he's always his normal happy self and the episodes have happened when he's being coddled / pet in that super excited state which leads me to think this must have something to do with over stimulation - which again I worry may worsen with Neutering.

*The other idea (when it pertains to his aggression towards me only) I'm wondering if me being gone from the house for more than a day or 2 leads to his hormones taking over and he starts to think of the house as his territory? Without the constant reminder of me being around his dominance might start to kick in and maybe its a challenge-type behavior? Either way I can't risk this with a new-born arriving in a few weeks

- Re the Scent concern: I've come home with scents from multiple different dogs without issue in the past so I'm not sure if it's some thing in particular that he's smelling. Will deff bring this up to the Vet

- Re my wife being pregnant: The first few episodes did occur before she was pregnant but her and I did think about this. It does seem like the escalation in his aggression happened once she was pregnant. I do have to mention that he is the prototypical one-person dog as in he is much more attached to me vs my wife

- Re bringing a professional into the home: I have my previous trainer coming over to give us her thoughts on Friday and at the vet appointment next week I will be asking about a certified behaviorist

- Re my reaction to his most recent / most aggressive outbust: I responded with multiple loud NO's but I didn't strike him. Unfortunately he didn't have his Ecollar on at the time so I wasn't able to provide a quick "correction" that may have snapped him out of it and I didn't think to try giving him a toy at the time since I was still pretty shocked

- Re the duration of the episode: It certainly last minutes at a minimum (not just a split second). Even afterwards he wouldn't come near me and just stayed on his dog bed

- Re "He would geet this far away look in his eye": My wife and I notice something like this with each episode. Ears go back, hair climbs and its as if he cowers but gives this weird "side eye" look

- Re him feeding off energy: We think you're absolutely correct and we're looking for early signs to ensure that we can ignore him if and see if that fixes the behavior

Sadly our Vet Clinic is so backed up I can't get him in for bloodwork until next week. Haven't noticed any issue since this post

 

[Ravenbird]

leads me to think this must have something to do with over stimulation - which again I worry may worsen with Neutering.

I agree that neutering will not help this. It is not hormonal.

I'm wondering if me being gone from the house for more than a day or 2 leads to his hormones taking over and he starts to think of the house as his territory? Without the constant reminder of me being around his dominance might start to kick in and maybe its a challenge-type behavior? Either way I can't risk this with a new-born arriving in a few weeks

But you said he did it to your mom when she showed up to visit and you were right there, so I would toss this out. It's also not a challenging type behavior. Also totally agree the new-born is a game changer, sadly. You cannot take risks.

I've come home with scents from multiple different dogs without issue in the past so I'm not sure if it's some thing in particular that he's smelling.

Dogs sense of smell is beyond our comprehension. Again, I think this is abnormal behavior that is not connected to one thing like smell. If a dog smells another dog on your pants leg they know you have not got the dog with you and won't growl at you for being near another dog hours ago. They might smell your pants leg intensely for information about the dog, and at the most maybe grumble as the smell but they don't process thoughts of "I'm mad at you for being around another dog".

I responded with multiple loud NO's but I didn't strike him. Unfortunately he didn't have his Ecollar on at the time so I wasn't able to provide a quick "correction" that may have snapped him out of it and I didn't think to try giving him a toy at the time since I was still pretty shocked

This is the best you could do, I would say it was appropriate. I would not try to give a toy or food as a distraction in this case because you need to be super careful that he doesn't mistake it for a reward of his unwanted behavior. Fine line between rewarding for stopping the growling or rewarding for growling in his brain, which is already firing off in different moods/directions.

It certainly last minutes at a minimum (not just a split second). Even afterwards he wouldn't come near me and just stayed on his dog bed

Ears go back, hair climbs and its as if he cowers but gives this weird "side eye" look

These descriptions offer that he is extremely uncomfortable with his situation before and after the episode.

we're looking for early signs to ensure that we can ignore him if and see if that fixes the behavior

A good choice for now. My routine since mine was a puppy: I left the house with no goodbyes, no "be good while I'm gone", nothing. Just walk out the door like she is not standing there with sad eyes. Arriving home, bring in groceries or whatever with no talk, maybe a pat on the head, but no eye contact. Push by, put things away and when she's through wagging and wiggling and quiet, then I'd give her a quiet head rub or hello of sorts. It was painful to me to be so neutral but she was one that would spin out of control at the drop of a hat and this really helped. I also told all my company: No touch, No talk, No eye contact. Sometimes they were here for 30 minutes before I let them engage with my dog. I just told them to pretend there was no dog in the house.

I'm hoping it is a stage he's in and not a long term behavior. Please keep us posted on his progress and your findings.

 

[MyBuddy]

I would not try to give a toy or food as a distraction in this case because you need to be super careful that he doesn't mistake it for a reward of his unwanted behavior. Fine line between rewarding for stopping the growling or rewarding for growling in his brain, which is already firing off in different moods/directions.

That was my first thought too. Giving him a toy seems too much like a reward for growling. I understand you probably think it could be used as a distraction. But I think he'll think of it as a reward.

 

[MyBuddy]

certainly seems like he's always his normal happy self and the episodes have happened when he's being coddled / pet in that super excited state which leads me to think this must have something to do with over stimulation - which again I worry may worsen with Neutering.

I'm leaning toward this. It's possible that he gets super excited and that brings on a different emotion. He just doesn't know how to handle it. So the old Cesar Millan method, "no touch no talk no eye contact" would be something I would try. Every time someone comes in and even when you and your wife just come home. Doing everything you can to deescalate his emotions. Reward when he's calm.

 

[MyBuddy]

this must have something to do with over stimulation - which again I worry may worsen with Neutering.

I don't believe that. But that's just me. Neutering is not going to fix it. But it's not going to worsen it either. In fact, I think it does calm them down a bit by lowering testosterone levels. But some things are a learned response.

 

[MyBuddy]

Wow I am so impressed by this community! I can't believe how quickly people have come to our aid and provided their insights - this is truly heartwarming

You've come to the right place! We have a lot of active members here who love their Dobermans and other furry members of the family! We are always eager to help when we can!

 

[Ravenbird]

I don't believe that. But that's just me. Neutering is not going to fix it. But it's not going to worsen it either. In fact, I think it does calm them down a bit by lowering testosterone levels. But some things are a learned response.

Studies have shown otherwise.

Does Neutering Male Dogs Make Them More Aggressive or Fearful?

In the study of 3593 dogs conducted by Duffy and mentioned above, owners of male dogs were significantly more likely to report dog and people directed aggression in neutered male dogs. Dogs who were neutered were less likely to urine mark and were calmer.

Farhoody and Zink reported significant differences in levels of aggression in intact dogs versus neutered dogs. Dogs who were neutered at less than 12 months had the highest levels of aggression with dogs neutered at 13–18 months being the closest to the intact dogs in aggression level. In addition, fear and anxiety was significantly higher in groups of dogs who were neutered when compared with intact dogs. In this study, the target of the aggression (e.g., human, dog) and the type of aggression (e.g., territorial, fear) was not identified making it difficult to draw very specific conclusions about the results.

However, in all three groups of neutered dogs, the level of aggression and fear was significantly higher than the intact dogs.


Here's the whole article: Does Spaying and Neutering Affect Behavioral Disorders in Dogs? - WSAVA 2017 Congress - VIN

 

[MyBuddy]

Like I said, this is just my opinion. It's hard for me to trust studies sometimes. I'm kind of going by Common sense. And my Common Sense may be way off, believe me! But I'm just thinking if there's less testosterone it would make for a calmer dog. Just like a stallion versus a gelding. Yes, they're still going to fight or develop some learned habits but a geldngs personality is nowhere near a stallion. I'm thinking dogs would be the same. That's interesting that that study says they are more aggressive if they're neutered early. Wonder why?

In another survey by the same author of 3593 dog owners who visited the author’s website to take the online survey, owners of spayed dogs were significantly more likely to complain of dog and owner directed fear and aggression; touch sensitivity and fear. Dogs who were spayed were calmer.

In the study of 3593 dogs conducted by Duffy and mentioned above, owners of male dogs were significantly more likely to report dog and people directed aggression in neutered male dogs. Dogs who were neutered were less likely to urine mark and were calmer.

Is it me or does that paragraph contradict itself in the last sentence? Maybe they are separating the fact that they are calmer but still aggressive toward people and dogs?

I admit I didn't read the whole article and study it intensely, but I wonder if this conversation what benefit in its own thread.

 

[Rits]

This only happens when you or a guest arrives home? What if we remove him from getting into this situation in the first place by having him go to his "place" or "spot" such as a designated rug or bed in the room, before a person comes through the door, that he must remain on. He isn't released until the person entering is no longer "new" and has settled and he is no longer intently interested in the person. (~15min).