Doberman becoming "extinct?"

@Ravenbird I'm gonna just say this once:
As I've been reading more on UDC and AWDF and at European Doberman kennel clubs, with a dog centered viewpoint, and having gotten FakeBook working for that, my impression from that social media platforms tainted view of US dog culture ...
the less I find myself inclined to GAF what the egoist Drama Pincher Club of America thinks.
 
As I've been reading more on UDC and AWDF and at European Doberman kennel clubs, with a dog centered viewpoint, and having gotten FakeBook working for that, my impression from that social media platforms tainted view of US dog culture ...
the less I find myself inclined to GAF what the egoist Drama Pincher Club of America thinks
I get it. But remember, there are good people and dogs in each group and also plenty of drama in each group. It's a wild ride, this learning curve. I'd get in line for one of those Finnish cross breeds that they don't want to keep for breed-backs if that was happening locally (with an intelligent long term plan).

And remember, this sounds like a professional plan in Finland, so you can bet the out crosses will be selected not just on breed character but their DNA, so no, they will not be doubling up on genes they don't want. But when the F-1 litters happen they will carefully select the genetics and the looks to get back to a healthy Dobe-looking/acting dog. It's the whole point! The hairy or spotted puppies will be selected out unless their genes are so impressive they want to hold on to them another generation. AND it's not just one breed - maybe they will breed back a Dobe/Pointer puppy to a Dobe/Gordon puppy at 2 years, then add back to the Doberman build. This is the thought process I had about 7 -8 years ago when learning how serious the health issues and inbreeding had become in the Doberman.
 
Ya, I was reacting to the online behavior of a subset of people in show dog world, not the whole breed club.

Not choosing one over another either.

Since I've never bred dobes or even been to a show, I'll hold my tongue, from now on.
 
Have we heard of this? It just came up on my f'book feed:

It says the Finnish Kennel Club has approved outcrossing and it shows a handful of breeds. Outcrossing to all of them? Or some?


This post claims German Kennel Club (VDH) has approved the Finnish project:

Have not dug deep enough to confirm, but here is VDH site for reference
 
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This post claims German Kennel Club (VDH) has approved the Finnish project:

Have not dug deep enough to confirm, but here is VDH site for reference
Lol the link came from this finnish facebook post, translated ....Meta AI needs work;
"gordon insect", "rabbit rheindeer dog"🤣

 
I honestly thought Jazzie, the Doberman x Ridgeback @jazzies mum had was a gorgeous cross who seemed to compliment both breeds very nicely. I haven't done any research on the RR to know the health issues with the breed but the cross would certainly diversify the breed.
 
I honestly thought Jazzie, the Doberman x Ridgeback @jazzies mum had was a gorgeous cross who seemed to compliment both breeds very nicely. I haven't done any research on the RR to know the health issues with the breed but the cross would certainly diversify the breed.
I agree. Have had a rhodi/retriever cross with a zipper; clever, fast, great with kids, fierce enough in self defense to hold her own with a big Akita that attacked out of nowhere in a trail run with BW.

Bonnie seems to gravitate to big rhodies on beach or trail parks. Along with other dobes, its the one other breed she seems to "recognize" or gravitate to instinctively it seems which makes no sense as we raised her as a pup without exposure to one.

Its the big males, the little hussy...😘🤣🤡

What I find interesting is the potential for hybrid vigor baked into the older european dogs taken by the Boers to Africa along with horse, oxen, to do a job: hunting, guarding, herding and the mix of khoi khoi native dogs that protected the village and cattle in the kraal from lions.

From what I recall reading the Boers being the tough farmers and settlers they were, appreciated the native dogs hardiness and utility and purpose-bred them to improve their functional dogs lines.

The euro dogs they brought with just could not hack the heat, pests, and other African dangers in that harsh environment.

To get a really good one the serious rhodie breeders would go to S Africa for foundation stock...but this was 20 years ago.

They are stubborn. Lots of love, clarity, consistent and fair leadership is required, but you will have a heart dog you can depend on, including dig dens 3 feet deep in your garden to escape the heat...just like in Africa! 🧐😉
 
I looked up Rhodesian's health issues--no apparent heart problems anyway.

In the mid-80s and 90s, basenjis were brought from the Ituri forest in what is now the Democratic Republic of the Congo, where they were originally developed. Most of the reason was to strengthen the health of the breed and help minimize Fanconi syndrome, which is a real problem in the breed. The other more minor reason was to bring the original brindle color back into the breed. The immigrants were noted on their papers as such (the "kennel" name was "Avongara" and that's how you could find a direct African import), and the offspring of those were allowed to be registered with AKC. The Africans not surprisingly didn't want to give up their best dogs (there were some photos of one dog that could have easily won in an AKC showring), but some good dogs were brought back to the US. There was a lot of pushback from many in the basenji community because they believed that the breed had been outcrossed enough in Africa that it was no longer pure, but enough people felt it was worth it. Some of the Avongara dogs had to be put down b/c they were so aggressive; it's a primitive breed anyway, and some of the imports were close to being wild.

The basenjis I am seeing in the show ring nowadays look exactly the same. However, I don't think the incidence of Fanconi has gone down. At this point, it would be impossible to import further dogs from the DRC.

Interesting article about the project: BCOA African Stock Project - Why Import African Basenjis?
 
Great article @Sunje

Among the many thoughts and questions this inspires are two:
1.How did the responsible breeders maintain not just the looks but also proof the functional working nature of the breed as it was further developed in the Western world?

2. The genial tone of the typical "letter to the editor" format of that time...respectful debate on the facts while acknowledging the other party's contributions.

"Reginald M. Cleveland, judge and authority
on Working Dogs, summed this point up very
neatly in a recent talk to the Dog Fanciers'
Luncheon Club in New York: "Just as a Standard
should set forth the utility and purpose of the dog,
the general appearance must always indicate the
utility of the dog."
These are questions that should be pondered
by every admirer of these dogs, including Mrs.
Birdsby, who, if the mail has arrived, is probably
sipping her morning coffee as she reads this, her
lovely red-saddled white boy, Ch. Bessie's
Babakitabu of Kikuyu, beside her, looking up at
her with round, golden eyes."

Something to recall in this day of anonymous posting on teh innertoobs. (Looking in mirror...)
 
Since I've never bred dobes or even been to a show, I'll hold my tongue, from now on.
No reason to hold back, this is a chat forum! 😅 I keep thinking I've found club-types that get along and are pretty much drama free, but if you hang with them long enough you'll see the infighting. It's too bad. I always hope for good discussions, not cat fights. I like to expand ideas by giving my thoughts. Sometimes I get feedback that expands MY thoughts and ideas.

1.How did the responsible breeders maintain not just the looks but also proof the functional working nature of the breed as it was further developed in the Western world?
Speaking of most any working breed, the show breeders rarely proofed the functional working nature of the breed. In fact many, intentionally or not squashed the working traits in favor of looks or fanciful trends. And if you look back at the Form & Function tread photos, it's very clear that they not only did not maintain the looks, they changed them drastically and at the same time, did not proof any physical or temperamental traits to the dogs original work.

Regarding the Doberman, choose any AKC Top 20 GCH on Dobequest and study the pedigree for letters after the name, there will be very few. Go to the pedigree of any IGP3 Doberman and look at the % of dogs with letters after its name, there will be plenty of proven dogs. Using the 4-gen pedigree, it should come to light that a successful show dog and a successful working dog have more of the same in their family. And true, 90% + of successful working dogs will not find success in the AKC ring even if they tried and same with show dogs going into bite sports, a very low success rate. Thus, the split in the lines. Certainly there are exceptions, but across the board, this is what you'll find.

Some of the Avongara dogs had to be put down b/c they were so aggressive; it's a primitive breed anyway, and some of the imports were close to being wild.
Such a shame. A dog is developed for a job, then handed over for a fancy or novelty, doesn't have a job anymore and low & behold, is too aggressive for a couch companion.
Malinos is the newest victim of this human ego problem.
 
PS: @Sunje iirc you bred? Showed?
Owned Basenjis for awhile?

I know you are very busy but one of these days if you have thoughts to share on that breed, would like to hear more from your wise perspective.

I've always been fascinated by their unique, almost feral (in a good way) behavior. More like a fox or even a cat, somehow.

Some day when I'm too old for another big dog, I'll need a smaller one thats interesting and useful in some way.

They seem hardy, but I'd be interested in what to look out for to avoid in the breed by genetics or other health testing.

Or maybe best webforum to go visit...

Aaandd: got a little OT there...🤡
So back to the OP by @DD4MSpock
"Dobes extinct?"
 
PS: @Sunje iirc you bred? Showed?
Owned Basenjis for awhile?

I know you are very busy but one of these days if you have thoughts to share on that breed, would like to hear more from your wise perspective.

I've always been fascinated by their unique, almost feral (in a good way) behavior. More like a fox or even a cat, somehow.

Some day when I'm too old for another big dog, I'll need a smaller one thats interesting and useful in some way.

They seem hardy, but I'd be interested in what to look out for to avoid in the breed by genetics or other health testing.

Or maybe best webforum to go visit...

Aaandd: got a little OT there...🤡
So back to the OP by @DD4MSpock
"Dobes extinct?"
Yes, I had basenjis for about 20 years total, showed, owner handled my bitch to a championship, bred a litter. They are very catlike, liking to climb and be in high places, very independent, not a very obedient breed b/c they are hounds and don't see the point. I could have put a CD on my little bitch though, b/c she had a more willing-to-please attitude, but it wasn't my interest at the time. While a GSD or a lab would say "duh, okay" when you say "come!", a basenji will look at you and say "why? What's in it for me?" and if you have something more interesting to them than what they are currently chasing, then they might come. But they are bred to hunt and chase small game into nets. They are very active, so actually not altogether suited for elderly unless you have a big yard and can let them run. Not a breed that you can throw a toy for and expect a retrieve. They like to be near you but aren't necessarily cuddly and need to touch you like a doberman does. They are a big dog in a little package, and can be very overwhelming if you don't know what to expect. I personally am looking at affenpinschers for a small old-lady dog, but I want to visit a breeder and be around them to make sure they aren't brachycephalic and snootly, because that is a deal-breaker.

I would consider another basenji too. They are overall a healthy breed, although I didn't have good luck w/ them. First of 4 was hit by a car (probably the biggest killer of this breed), 2nd (my little bitch) developed a weird cancer (tonsillar) that she passed on to all 5 of her puppies. She died at age 10 or so and her son who I kept died at about age 8. I told the other puppy owners about this and told them that they needed to immediately get their dogs' tonsils removed. Unfortunately they listened to their vets and not to me and only monitored, so both of those dogs died at age 12. That was a terrible thing, and I'm glad I didn't breed her again and get that mess out into the entire breed. None of her puppies were bred either. I did all of her health testing, chose an excellent sire, had a great mentor who was known and respected in the breed, and still had this happen. Really soured me towards breeding, and I never want that responsibility again. My last basenji I researched thoroughly, chose a good breeder, granddam lived to be 17, other dogs in the line had good longevity, and I lost him at age 7 due to stomach problems. He was a brindle and so had the direct African gene and maybe that contributed to his nervousness. I never could get him crate-trained--he would scream like you were flaying him alive for hours, and never could get used to a crate. So perhaps I'm not the best judge of health in the breed, and I've been out of them long enough now that I don't really know who the good breeders are.

In contrast, my first doberman lived to be 14. 🙄 Just bad luck w/ basenjis.
 
Yes, I had basenjis for about 20 years total, showed, owner handled my bitch to a championship, bred a litter. They are very catlike, liking to climb and be in high places, very independent, not a very obedient breed b/c they are hounds and don't see the point. I could have put a CD on my little bitch though, b/c she had a more willing-to-please attitude, but it wasn't my interest at the time. While a GSD or a lab would say "duh, okay" when you say "come!", a basenji will look at you and say "why? What's in it for me?" and if you have something more interesting to them than what they are currently chasing, then they might come. But they are bred to hunt and chase small game into nets. They are very active, so actually not altogether suited for elderly unless you have a big yard and can let them run. Not a breed that you can throw a toy for and expect a retrieve. They like to be near you but aren't necessarily cuddly and need to touch you like a doberman does. They are a big dog in a little package, and can be very overwhelming if you don't know what to expect. I personally am looking at affenpinschers for a small old-lady dog, but I want to visit a breeder and be around them to make sure they aren't brachycephalic and snootly, because that is a deal-breaker.

I would consider another basenji too. They are overall a healthy breed, although I didn't have good luck w/ them. First of 4 was hit by a car (probably the biggest killer of this breed), 2nd (my little bitch) developed a weird cancer (tonsillar) that she passed on to all 5 of her puppies. She died at age 10 or so and her son who I kept died at about age 8. I told the other puppy owners about this and told them that they needed to immediately get their dogs' tonsils removed. Unfortunately they listened to their vets and not to me and only monitored, so both of those dogs died at age 12. That was a terrible thing, and I'm glad I didn't breed her again and get that mess out into the entire breed. None of her puppies were bred either. I did all of her health testing, chose an excellent sire, had a great mentor who was known and respected in the breed, and still had this happen. Really soured me towards breeding, and I never want that responsibility again. My last basenji I researched thoroughly, chose a good breeder, granddam lived to be 17, other dogs in the line had good longevity, and I lost him at age 7 due to stomach problems. He was a brindle and so had the direct African gene and maybe that contributed to his nervousness. I never could get him crate-trained--he would scream like you were flaying him alive for hours, and never could get used to a crate. So perhaps I'm not the best judge of health in the breed, and I've been out of them long enough now that I don't really know who the good breeders are.

In contrast, my first doberman lived to be 14. 🙄 Just bad luck w/ basenjis.
Great stories @Sunje
I appreciate the integrity you being to discussions on breeding responsibly.

Ya, Basenji probly not a fit for Floriduh Man.
Monkey dogs look like fun.
 
Great stories @Sunje
I appreciate the integrity you being to discussions on breeding responsibly.

Ya, Basenji probly not a fit for Floriduh Man.
Monkey dogs look like fun.
They are ridiculously cute! But I want to be around them more before I make any kind of decision about that breed.
 

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