Neutering Nerves

[ABCDogs]

Colt (3y10m) is going in to be neutered and have a gastropexy done on Tuesday. I felt it was time to do the pexy and we decided to just do the neuter too while he's out.

My nerves don't come from the surgery... his bloodwork is excellent and his echo and Holter were normal this summer. My concern is that he'll change... and I'm pretty sure I'm wayyyy overthinking it... but I would hate it if he changed somehow. He's too perfect as he is! I have never had a male dog as an adult, we had male family dogs when I was a kid but they were all farm dogs and I don't think any of them were neutered. I've always had female rescues, so they were all spayed when I got them. Except one, who was spayed only a week after I got her because she was pregnant. And Dixie, the recent sheltiexpoodle addition, who we spayed early because of the twins.

Colt is not a very doggy dog and we have never had hormone-related behavioral issues. Even when we go to class with a bitch in season he just has his nose on the floor a little more than normal, no issues focusing or working. I really am only neutering him because of the pexy. His breeders released me from the S/N contract when he was a puppy because I had some concerns regarding retaining hormones past the 18 months the contract required. And since we are all good friends, both of them agreed to release it. I have zero, and I mean ZERO interest in breeding.

anyway. Not looking to change my mind, but I'd love some comfort and/or reassurance that he'll stay the way he is.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Good questions.

Well, he's not a very doggy dog at this point. I don't know that neutering would make him more of a doggy dog.

I'm actually not much of an expert on the effects of neutering. I have never neutered any of my 4 dogs I've had (3 Dobes and now a much different type of large dog) and I never experienced any of the problem behaviors they all say intact males have. I've also not experienced any health problems related to being intact. Well, the possible exception is Oji seemed to maybe have an enlarged prostate in his "old" age. ??

Speaking of age, all 3 of my Dobes died in their 8th year, so who knows if they had lived longer, they would've run into the serious health problems the vets warn you about from being intact.

We did neuter my wife's dog at about a year of age. I CAN tell you that that eliminated the problem of my 3+ year old male fighting with him. It's like my Zephyr is thinking okay, you smell different and now you're not challenging my supremacy.

 

[JanS]

The neuter is a fairly easy surgery so he will be fine on that front. The gastropexy is a bit more invasive but the hardest part is keeping them down for the 10 or so days for recovery.
I guess if you don't have plans to show him in AKC conformation there really isn't a drawback in neutering him if that's what you want to do.

Hang in there, we will all be here for you.

 

[Sunje]

Well--since this is not a spay where you just increase the length of the incision to accomodate the spay in with the pexy, why do it at all? He's great the way he is, you're concerned that he'll change, and your girl is spayed already. Personally, I'd keep him intact.

If we are able to get a girl dog at some point, I will likely neuter Brio then, just to avoid an accidental breeding since I'd want to give her the time to mature.

 

[Nordika]

There is no benefit to neutering a male. It does, however, increase risks of certain cancers; prostate cancer ~4× higher in neutered males, (because the prostate gland is left in place and loses hormonal regulation) bladder transitional cell carcinoma is ~3.6× more common in neutered males and hemangiosarcoma shows an increase in neutered males. Dobermans are the one breed (along with female Golden Retrievers) where the UC Davis 35-breed study explicitly recommends leaving males intact for life — no neutering at any age. The cancers tracked in the UC Davis study were lymphoma, hemangiosarcoma, mast cell tumor, and osteosarcoma. The net risk-benefit calculation for this breed tips toward leaving intact.

 

[BGpa]

@ABCDogs IF your risk/reward is based on avoiding GDV which IS a thing in this breed and heart breaking if not caught early, vs cancer etc later.

If I got that right then I'm sympathetic, and trust your gut fwiw.

He's already grown in on his leg bones and other parts affected by hormones in growth stage.

I've had zero male dobes but a couple males neutered from rescue, one a neufy that died of a spleen rupture unexpectedly, the other a GSD from a very rare cancer...not applicable.

No dobes with "before vs after", but from what I read on forums that a properly trained dog isnt affected by neuter- behavior isnt changed much, and since Colt is so well behaved anyway....well, thats a wash.

The UC Davis study is highly useful but a small sample size given the long wisdom in the breeders.

What does your breeders and other friends with lots of recent contact with breeders/handlers like EMB have to say?

Is it too late to just do the tack and leave his nuts alone? Don't fix what aint broken?

 

[LifeofRubie]

I can understand your concerns!

Moo was neutered at about 2 years old and honestly... in his day to day, we didn't notice any changes. He would, on occasion, mark inside if we went somewhere new but neutering shut that down immediately. If Colt is chill now, I wouldn't think a neuter would change that in anyway!

 

[ABCDogs]

There is no benefit to neutering a male. It does, however, increase risks of certain cancers; prostate cancer ~4× higher in neutered males, (because the prostate gland is left in place and loses hormonal regulation) bladder transitional cell carcinoma is ~3.6× more common in neutered males and hemangiosarcoma shows an increase in neutered males. Dobermans are the one breed (along with female Golden Retrievers) where the UC Davis 35-breed study explicitly recommends leaving males intact for life — no neutering at any age. The cancers tracked in the UC Davis study were lymphoma, hemangiosarcoma, mast cell tumor, and osteosarcoma. The net risk-benefit calculation for this breed tips toward leaving intact.

I had many long conversations with out vet and at the last consult he recommended doing the pexy and neuter at once. He said the benefits from hormones were already in place and any additional benefits regarding cancers were negligible at this point. Looking at his four-gen pedigree the most common COD is DCM, second was mammary cancer (as reported by his sire's breeder, not DobeQuest), third most common was a tie between prostate cancer and GDV (2 of each). There was only one reported osteo case on DobeQuest. So taking that into consideration I decided to neuter now with the pexy rather than leaving him intact into old age and having to neuter when he is more medically fragile.

@ABCDogs IF your risk/reward is based on avoiding GDV which IS a thing in this breed and heart breaking if not caught early, vs cancer etc later.

If I got that right then I'm sympathetic, and trust your gut fwiw.

He's already grown in on his leg bones and other parts affected by hormones in growth stage.

I've had zero male dobes but a couple males neutered from rescue, one a neufy that died of a spleen rupture unexpectedly, the other a GSD from a very rare cancer...not applicable.

No dobes with "before vs after", but from what I read on forums that a properly trained dog isnt affected by neuter- behavior isnt changed much, and since Colt is so well behaved anyway....well, thats a wash.

The UC Davis study is highly useful but a small sample size given the long wisdom in the breeders.

What does your breeders and other friends with lots of recent contact with breeders/handlers like EMB have to say?

Is it too late to just do the tack and leave his nuts alone? Don't fix what aint broken?

His breeders released me from the S/N contract but his sire's breeder (Allthemore) still requests that I neiter. She said she trusts me with him intact but that she would neuter him if her were her dog. The other breeder (Heartspot) said she doesnt have an opinion on what I shoudl do but that she'd have neutered him a long time ago.

Most other breeders (ADPC members, mostly) ask me repeatedly why I haven't neutered him. When we do Meet the Breed events they always comment on it becasue inevitably there will be two males at our booth and we just keep them on opposite sides. Never have we had any signs of aggression between males at a MTB event, but one time we had a spayed rescue snap at an intact male. But it feels like (to me, i have no real evidence) they think he should be neutered because the other males are show dogs and their wholeness take precedence over Colt's. But seeing as we've never had any issues, I don't care what those particular people think. And even if he were neutered I wouldn't bring him face to face with a stranger male dog at all. Just don't want to set him up for failure if I can help it.

We have run into issues with him being intact regarding travel. He travels with us fairly often and it's hard to find a pet-friendly Airbnb that accepts dogs his size AND intact. So neutering will free up our options and reduce travel costs as well.

 

[DobieDesire]

Over my life time, I've had several male dogs that were neutered later in life. Strays I'd picked up, breeder returns, neutering them didn't alter their personalities one bit. In my youth, one male dog that was not neutered, did indeed get a prostate cancer.

It is SO SAD to see, on craigslist, all the BYB's. SO many litters of mutts, purebreds, and designer breeds. Sad to see how many dogs are dog napped now-a-days to be sold to and used by BYB's.

 

[ABCDogs]

Over my life time, I've had several male dogs that were neutered later in life. Strays I'd picked up, breeder returns, neutering them didn't alter their personalities one bit. In my youth, one male dog that was not neutered, did indeed get a prostate cancer.

It is SO SAD to see, on craigslist, all the BYB's. SO many litters of mutts, purebreds, and designer breeds. Sad to see how many dogs are dog napped now-a-days to be sold to and used by BYB's.

YES! Every now and then I scroll craigslist a report all the puppy sales posts, because technically it's not allowed. The number of large breed mixes and even purebreds shock me. And LSG breeds! Nobody in urban Atlanta needs a mastiff or a great pyr mix.

And yes, when we go out I don't like the number of people who mention his balls. It's very weird. I have even told a fib or two saying he had a vasectomy so he can't be bred. One pro of a scary-looking dog who is fairly aloof with strangers is that if I don't want him to say hi to someone he won't. I actually taught him a cue to "go say hi" and he goes to someone, turns sideways to let them pet his shoulders, and looks at me waiting for his release cue. He's a great boy, but very Doberman when it comes to people outside our family and close friends. So I'm not too worried about him getting stolen. My husband is also kinda scary looking (or so I've been told), so he sometimes says something like "I'd go Taken on someone if we lost him." Makes anyone who might be eyeing him up move right along.

 

[Js4fn]

Lack of sleep here what kind of a sign is required to get your dog stolen. Asking for a friend

 

[BGpa]

@ABCDogs

We have run into issues with him being intact regarding travel. He travels with us fairly often and it's hard to find a pet-friendly Airbnb that accepts dogs his size AND intact. So neutering will free up our options and reduce travel costs as well.

Well thats enough to tip the scales, right there.

Plus "just in case", a mellower male "for the babies"...is something you didn't mention but might be worth it. I would in your shoes fwiw.

You've obviously trained Colt very well, and his family socialization is at the top, but...

I also DGAF about showdog opinions.
Those considerations dont apply in this instance.
Apologies to those who do say so, with respect as again I dont know that world, with infinite variety in backgrounds.

You know plenty in that world already including to me the far more experiential wisdom from those who know the business from ground up: crop care, groomers, handlers, beginning breeders, in those whi have/had own babies with dobes in the home, etc.

That real world hands-on view is worth more to me on real world behavior pre/post s/n

than DPCA big bux top 20 strivers...elite who may only pay for the work.

IYKYK. Keep up the great work as the Awesome Mom you are.

 

[Sunje]

We have run into issues with him being intact regarding travel. He travels with us fairly often and it's hard to find a pet-friendly Airbnb that accepts dogs his size AND intact. So neutering will free up our options and reduce travel costs as well.

You have very good reasons for neutering him. This is one I haven't encountered--it's only been the weight limits that places often have.

 

[BGpa]

Lack of sleep here what kind of a sign is required to get your dog stolen. Asking for a friend

Wut? Confused by the wording...j/k snark or?

True Fact for the convo:
Walking dog on trail met older gal walking her dogs- the owner of a StateFarm brokerage who had the opinion that telling someone your dobe is not a threat,
And also
posting a Beware of Dog sign might raise liability...
still cant quite grok why but...something something laws in re: litigation.

What exactly is the issue?
Might be worth a separate post...

 

[Js4fn]

Wut? Confused by the wording...snark or?

Just wondering how big of a sign I need to hang around the neck of one of my feral dogs to get it stolen is all

 

[BGpa]

Just wondering how big of a sign I need to hang around the neck of one of my feral dogs to get it stolen is all

Lol. "Free Dog- watch your fingers, thieves accept all responsibility for injury or death"

 

[ABCDogs]

Just wondering how big of a sign I need to hang around the neck of one of my feral dogs to get it stolen is all

I'd use the "the only papers they come with is a liability waiver" you had in your signature "over there."

 

[ABCDogs]

Wut? Confused by the wording...j/k snark or?

True Fact for the convo:
Walking dog on trail met older gal walking her dogs- the owner of a StateFarm brokerage who had the opinion that telling someone your dobe is not a threat,
And also
posting a Beware of Dog sign might raise liability...
still cant quite grok why but...something something laws in re: litigation.

What exactly is the issue?
Might be worth a separate post...

I have a "Be Aware of the Dog" sign. Not a threat, but still a warning.

If you run a business from your home and put up "guard dog on premises" you can claim some dog care on some taxes. I haven't done that and I won't dox my friend who does, but it should be investigated further if anyone wants to actually implement it.

 

[BGpa]

I have a "Be Aware of the Dog" sign. Not a threat, but still a warning.

If you run a business from your home and put up "guard dog on premises" you can claim some dog care on some taxes. I haven't done that and I won't dox my friend who does, but it should be investigated further if anyone wants to actually implement it.

Good tip! I have one on my car so the idjit that decides to road rage or steal from car cant blame me for major trauma and losing a few years of life by fierce barking devil dog inside.

 

[ABCDogs]

You have very good reasons for neutering him. This is one I haven't encountered--it's only been the weight limits that places often have.

I'd really like to compare your experience with mine on Airbnb alongside data on shelters/rescues/lobbying groups pushing the "you can't be a responsible pet owner without spaying or neutering your dog" in our respective areas. I know the southeast has some of the highest shelter numbers in the country. And people don't want to admit the system needs a major overhaul, they just blame everyone with an intact pet for the overpopulation. I have heard that the northeast and midwest have much lower numbers and therefore fewer sterilization movements. If public perception is different there with fewer brainwashed Airbnb hosts maybe your experience is better. We've run into many different hosts throughout Georgia and Florida who have "pets allowed" then when I read the house rules it barrs intact animals. One guy wanted you to message if your dog was over 25lbs for prior approval. I messaged and he said he would approve a large male dog only if he is neutered. Which, I kinda get. Some dogs mark indoors. But that's behavioral, not hormonal, in my opinion.