Doberman Cross Breeding Project

[Ddski5]

Finnish Kennel Club Board Approves Doberman Crossbreeding Project and Other Key Decisions

The Finnish Kennel Club Board met on May 7 and May 22, approving a number of initiatives affecting breeding, governance, education, and international activities.

One of the most significant decisions was the approval of a crossbreeding project for Dobermans.

The project aims to improve the breed’s overall health, expand the gene pool, and increase genetic diversity. The primary focus is reducing the impact of Dilated Cardiomyopathy (DCM), a serious heart disease that affects approximately 60% of the breed population during their lifetime.

The approved outcross breeds are:

• Gordon Setter
• Hovawart
• Finnish Lapponian Herder
• German Shorthaired Pointer

The German Kennel Club has unanimously approved and expressed support for the project. Offspring produced through the program will be registered in the Finnish Kennel Club’s FIRR registry, a separate registry for crossbreeding projects.

The Board also approved the creation of a new official role to assist with behavioural evaluations of dogs subject to participation restrictions. Individuals appointed to the role must have advanced education in animal care, behaviour, or related fields, along with experience dealing with aggression-related behavioural issues.

Two new members were appointed to the Finnish Kennel Club Education Working Group as part of ongoing efforts to strengthen educational programming and training initiatives.

The Board approved a new advocacy and government relations strategy covering the years 2027 to 2031.

Among the international highlights:

• Finnish representatives were selected for several FCI and international championship judging assignments.

• Nordic kennel organizations agreed to begin work toward more unified anti-doping policies.

• Finnish officials received appointments within FCI committees, including agility and rescue dog activities.

The Board also approved several organizational changes, including recognition of additional breed organizations and breed clubs, along with multiple new member associations from across Finland.

The next meeting of the Finnish Kennel Club Board is scheduled for June 11.

Source: Finnish Kennel Club Board decisions from meetings held May 7 and May 22, 2026.

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[Ddski5]

I would like to know their logic with the breed selections. I sure do like the Rhodesian Ridgeback in there and the Beauceron.

Wonder where this is going to go? Will it stay isolated to that region or will this be the final start to new beginnings with the Doberman and spread from land to land?

 

[BGpa]

I would like to know their logic with the breed selections. I sure do like the Rhodesian Ridgeback in there and the Beauceron.

Wonder where this is going to go? Will it stay isolated to that region or will this be the final start to new beginnings with the Doberman and spread from land to land?

Me too, @Ddski5 in re: "i haz questions?"
and good idea to start a new thread dedicated to this project.

I too am very interested to learn "what exactly are they targeting as a trait, as a specific improvement to bring to the dobe breed?"

And how? What tools and methodology?
Genetics vs genomics?

I'm assuming there is something that speaks to health, specifically DCM, given how much attention its garnered over the years.

Comparing this FKC "Fix the Dobes" Plan to the now terminated DDP (that frankly to me looked like another attempt to justify hypertrope Bandoggery...)

And other debates (remember the squawking and clucking at the youtuber interview of Dr Sophie Liu on the Wade study) ...?

Speaking for myself here is a legit effort that at least allows this weird old fart in the peanut gallery to discuss ideas openly without the gatekeeping typical in purist show circles to shutdown the very mention of the elephant in the room.

One thing I find fascinating in tribal politics is how the various groups see themselves. Look up "suomi" as the key point of pride for the Finns national identity.

Its like the honey badger memes...on teh innertoobs.

 

[BGpa]

PS: I really like the Beauce' looks and breed functional working characteristics. Not to go off on a tangent, but was re-reading this book on breed history (which is very detailed btw, written from a UK breeders perspective)



"Beaucerons dated back to the 1500s and were known to be in the region of Apolda at that time, having been left behind from the occupying forces of Napoleon’s army. The Dobermann shares many similarities with the Beauceron in the shape of its head, body and working characteristics. Beaucerons are known for their unique double hind dewclaws, and these occasionally surface in Dobermanns. (A litter born to the author in 2006 contained three puppies, each with double hind dew claws.)

And back to the point (I'm gettting there...)
Recalled a comment on teh other dobe forum i think, noting DCM is a key issue in the Beauces, as is mentioned also here:

Health Concerns in Beaucerons – American Beauceron Club

beauce.org

So maybe the FKC is looking for breeds to that have low DCM to outcross for that, vs looks per se...

 

[Ravenbird]

To everyone questioning the breeds they chose for outcrossing, I can only speculate that the people behind this have spent years studying DNA/Health issues etc etc in many breeds while retaining the working temperament and dedication to their humans as well as having a diverse array of genes to mix with the Dobermans extreme "same-ness". And then, amongst the breeds chosen I'm sure that the "working lines" vs "show lines" are looked at. For an example a Geman Shepherd as a breed has a high rate of hip dysplasia, but working GSDs are screened hard and lines with HD are never used by reputable WL breeders. I would assume that the group doing this outcross work knows what genetic diseases their 4 breeds are prone to and will seek out dogs that have low incidences in their genes or family history. Looking up those breeds on the AKC descriptions (yeah, yeah, grain of salt, but...) they seem like really good choices, and once again going deeper, get photos of the working lines of these dogs and you find a different animal! I did scent work with a friend with a Gordon Setter and she was an amazing dog - her coat was nothing like those show dog pictures.

In the brief out cross program done in the US, which was never an official thing that I know of, the photos of 1st, 2nd and 3rd generations showed how fast the Doberman standard can be brought back. You have 8 puppies in the F1 litter, you only use the best ones that most resemble the Dobe with the most desirable genetic components. I have faith they will be doing this carefully and wish them success, and the Dobermans of our future a healthier, longer life.

 

[BGpa]

@Ddski5 to add to your OP as to the FKC "Fix the dobes health" project ...
There is a new German doberman breed club just announced as formed "to improve the genetics of the breed":

Landgraf Working Dogs

New Dobermann Registry in Germany. Congratulations to all involved in getting this done! 👏👏👏

www.facebook.com

I wonder if its the same that @dobschroeder was referring to earlier, here:

https://doberman-chat.com/threads/hello-from-italy.39726/#post-725480

Landgraf is well respected in DPCA as among top 20 Obedience
And is in the UDC breeder referral:

vom Landgraf - United Doberman Club

Wendy SchmittSacramento, [email protected]/ Landgraf Working Dobermanns: where we have produced National and Regional IPO3 and FH Champions. We strive to produce the ultimate working dog throughcorrect working Temperament, complete health testing and functional...

uniteddobermanclub.com

@Ravenbird to your point "can only speculate that the people behind this have spent years studying DNA/Health issues"

Looks like some critical mass is forming up in the global point of view of "total doberman", "dobermans that do", "functional dog" bred to original purpose

 

[BGpa]

To everyone questioning the breeds they chose for outcrossing, I can only speculate that the people behind this have spent years studying DNA/Health issues etc etc in many breeds while retaining the working temperament and dedication to their humans as well as having a diverse array of genes to mix with the Dobermans extreme "same-ness". And then, amongst the breeds chosen I'm sure that the "working lines" vs "show lines" are looked at. For an example a Geman Shepherd as a breed has a high rate of hip dysplasia, but working GSDs are screened hard and lines with HD are never used by reputable WL breeders. I would assume that the group doing this outcross work knows what genetic diseases their 4 breeds are prone to and will seek out dogs that have low incidences in their genes or family history. Looking up those breeds on the AKC descriptions (yeah, yeah, grain of salt, but...) they seem like really good choices, and once again going deeper, get photos of the working lines of these dogs and you find a different animal! I did scent work with a friend with a Gordon Setter and she was an amazing dog - her coat was nothing like those show dog pictures.

In the brief out cross program done in the US, which was never an official thing that I know of, the photos of 1st, 2nd and 3rd generations showed how fast the Doberman standard can be brought back. You have 8 puppies in the F1 litter, you only use the best ones that most resemble the Dobe with the most desirable genetic components. I have faith they will be doing this carefully and wish them success, and the Dobermans of our future a healthier, longer life.

Met a couple at dog beach yesterday with a handsome black dog that looked like a flat coat, but was waaaayyy more reserved. When I inquired about breed they said Hovawart and were excited I'd heard of it..."first person who had"...lol.

We chatted a bit and they explained why they chose, shared more about the behavior and temperament- close to dobe, in reserved nature, job is to protect home and property.

And NOT the prom queen most people expect assuming its a black golden...she said black is uncommon in Hovawarts.

The breeder is:

Puppy information — Helderberg Hovawarts

www.helderberghovawarts.com

Lots of good info, similar to ethical responsible breeding protocols in dobe breed enthusiasts.

I mentioned the Finnish Kennel Club approved dobe outcross, but they hadnt heard of it. They had an interest in SD training so I suggested some resources.

 

[BGpa]

Breeder philosophy at that site...reminds me of some passionate working line breeders here @Rits and some of what @Sunje gas mentioned in past dogs, setting expectations in buyers.

Lots of interesting stuff about raising puppies, reminds me of some of what @Ladydi has shared.

"The puppies are born and raised in the house. I use the Biosensor method of early neurological stimulation starting shortly after birth and follow methods of raising the pups outlined in Puppy Culture, AviDog, and Jerry Hope's book: The Breeders Guide to Raising Superstar Dogs"

I meet the most interesting people at dog parks, and learn so much about dogs.

Thanks again @Ddski5 I'm gonna follow the Finnish Outcross project with great interest.

 

[BGpa]

Oh, oh, oh look!
Dog nerd rabbithole on teh innertoobs ahead...caution!
You might fall in Alice!
(I feel like a kid with a great new toy!!!)

This is the place I wish I'd found a year before Bonnie came home...its tough to learn from books when you are shy about visiting the Dr because your arms look like a junkies in dobershark stage...
And sleep is a scarce resource...

Recommended reading list — Helderberg Hovawarts

www.helderberghovawarts.com

Patricia McConnel...check
Dr Sophie Liu...oh yes, so checking that.
"If you are only going to read 1 book before you get your new pup-READ THIS ONE!! (If you are matched to a puppy, this is REQUIRED reading prior to picking up your new puppy)"
Bold!

https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/social-civil-and-savvy-laura-vanarendonk-baugh/1126373782

 

[DobieDesire]

Met a couple at dog beach yesterday with a handsome black dog that looked like a flat coat, but was waaaayyy more reserved. When I inquired about breed they said Hovawart and were excited I'd heard of it..."first person who had"...lol.

We chatted a bit and they explained why they chose, shared more about the behavior and temperament- close to dobe, in reserved nature, job is to protect home and property.

And NOT the prom queen most people expect assuming its a black golden...she said black is uncommon in Hovawarts.

The breeder is:

Puppy information — Helderberg Hovawarts

www.helderberghovawarts.com

Lots of good info, similar to ethical responsible breeding protocols in dobe breed enthusiasts.

I mentioned the Finnish Kennel Club approved dobe outcross, but they hadnt heard of it. They had an interest in SD training so I suggested some resources.

Wow, that is so cool, I'd never heard of that breed. Thanks for sharing the link.

 

[Gelcoater]

Hovawart is a pretty cool dog. Several coat colors.
The gold is my favorite. Looks a lot like a Golden Retriever at a glance. But not a pushover like one.
(Disclaimer…we’ve had 4 goldens in the family over the years. They are good dogs, but not at all security minded) My parents house got robbed with 2 of them at the house. A different scenario would have taken place had they been Howawarts)


A coat for cold weather too!

 

[BGpa]

Wow, that is so cool, I'd never heard of that breed. Thanks for sharing the link.

You're welcome. I'm reading more on the breeder page. Lots of good info for any german guardian breed enthusiast. The lady mentioned something about rottweiler influence in the Howavart breed skull but my hearing sux so dont quotte me.

 

[BGpa]

Hovawart is a pretty cool dog. Several coat colors.
The gold is my favorite. Looks a lot like a Golden Retriever at a glance. But not a pushover like one.
(Disclaimer…we’ve had 4 goldens in the family over the years. They are good dogs, but not at all security minded) My parents house got robbed with 2 of them at the house. A different scenario would have taken place had they been Howawarts)
View attachment 161558

A coat for cold weather too!

The bitch I met was just like the one on left- a bit smaller at 1.5 years old "not quite an adult".

Calm, confident, owner focused reserved with strangers, and interested more in Bonnie who was busy retrieving kong in the surf,
and after checking in on owners while we were talking 5 min or so was comfortable being petted.

Thats my trick for meeting shy or reserved guardian breeds- ignore while talking to owner until the dog is interested enough to come sniff has accepted me as background checked and "in the circle of trust"...

Its a mastiff thing:

 

[BGpa]

To everyone questioning the breeds they chose for outcrossing, I can only speculate that the people behind this have spent years studying DNA/Health issues etc etc in many breeds while retaining the working temperament and dedication to their humans as well as having a diverse array of genes to mix with the Dobermans extreme "same-ness". And then, amongst the breeds chosen I'm sure that the "working lines" vs "show lines" are looked at. For an example a Geman Shepherd as a breed has a high rate of hip dysplasia, but working GSDs are screened hard and lines with HD are never used by reputable WL breeders. I would assume that the group doing this outcross work knows what genetic diseases their 4 breeds are prone to and will seek out dogs that have low incidences in their genes or family history. Looking up those breeds on the AKC descriptions (yeah, yeah, grain of salt, but...) they seem like really good choices, and once again going deeper, get photos of the working lines of these dogs and you find a different animal! I did scent work with a friend with a Gordon Setter and she was an amazing dog - her coat was nothing like those show dog pictures.

In the brief out cross program done in the US, which was never an official thing that I know of, the photos of 1st, 2nd and 3rd generations showed how fast the Doberman standard can be brought back. You have 8 puppies in the F1 litter, you only use the best ones that most resemble the Dobe with the most desirable genetic components. I have faith they will be doing this carefully and wish them success, and the Dobermans of our future a healthier, longer life.

@Ravenbird are you referring to this as "the brief outcrossing project in the US"? With pics?
(I gotta remind myself which acronym goes with what...so heres thst for anyone as easily confused as me...

1. "DPP"

Phase 2

Due to its findings from Phase 1, if the Project returns to actively breeding their focus will be primarily on multigenerational mixed breedings with the occasional reintroduction of a purebred...

www.dobermanpreservationproject.com

Pictures are very interesting. Cane Corso, Irish Setter, and Rottie mixes...

Project Put on hold due to "challenges in current economy" and commitment to "have buyers lined up for crosses".

2. Somewhat related you all may remember Dr Sophie Liu from the youtuber interview and this:
"DDP"

Our Team

Our team of Doberman experts and enthusiasts, veterinarians, and scientific researchers are united by the belief that every Doberman dog deserves to live a long, healthy, and productive life.

www.dobermandiversityproject.org

Btw, Dr Liu has been since working on her own breeding project, see pics:

Our Dogs | Vibranium Dobermans

www.vibraniumdobermans.com

@Ravenbird you may appreciate this dog description in line with your observations in breed goals towards "total dobermans".

"Safira is incredible socially stable, medium arousal, and high ball drive. She demonstrates excellent biddability, and her conformation is vastly improved over other working Dobermans.


When it's time to work, Safira turns ON. But when she is off the field, her excellent arousal control allows her to rest comfortably ANYWHERE. She is a Go Anywhere, Do Anything dog - a true brewery or cafe dog because she is so solid. She is a joy to have..."

3. And there was to be an update from Dr McCue on the U Mn long term study progress at UDC Nationals on the "other" acronym for

DDP here:

General 3 — UDC National 2026: Prison Break!

www.udcnational2026.com

I hope this helps any confusion (at least in my mind) on acronyms, clarified. There will be a test later...

Humble brag alert: BYB Bonnies genetic COI on Embark is 21%. I think she has weiner dog in there somewhere... pic today is waiting on a "Pup Cup"...red vest off so she could get attention from pretty wimmins at Starbux, @Doc you know what I'm talking about...

and be a good ambassador. She's nutty about Pup Cups, so its one of our happy places.

Don't worry she got her nails done later...with bonus treats...

And some hanging out at the vet with more bonus treats, meeting other people and dogs, just picking up a Simparica Trio refill.
Gotta remind Bonnie that not every visit to the vet involves a scary visit to the back room for blood draws, shots, etc.

Sometimes its just convos with other dog owners and treats.

PS met a guy with wonderful young male english working line black lab...with protective character...so I got a line on his breeder, gathering notes on SD#2 when I have to retire Bonnie someday.

 

[DobieDesire]

Ahh, so many dogs, so little time.

 

[Ravenbird]

Patricia McConnel...check
Dr Sophie Liu...oh yes, so checking that.
"If you are only going to read 1 book before you get your new pup-READ THIS ONE!! (If you are matched to a puppy, this is REQUIRED reading prior to picking up your new puppy)"
Bold!
Social, Civil, and Savvy: Training & Socializing Puppies to Become the Best Possible Dogs

Probably a good reading list for diversity in learning, but honestly these all lean toward PP/FF and I was talked into trying that with Asha as a puppy and it was a certified disaster. Soft, "normal" (LOL) puppies will do fine, if not great, with these methods, but a strong independent bossy puppy needs a lot of boundaries and strict reinforcement. I know I started reading Pukkas Promise, and it was ok, but think I never finished it because I just couldn't relate. I have no problems with positive training, but I do have a problem with trainers who criticize prong & e-collars. Laura V-B bio includes "snuggling with a Doberman with ears and a tail". Again, I have zero problems with natural Dobes. I advocate for them and have criticized DPCA for their policy of leaving them out of pictures. But between the lines I read "I'm not one of those people who mutilate their puppy". I don't tolerate intolerance from either side. The Sophie author is Sophie Yin, not Sophie Liu, so not the same...
Again, prolly a fine reading list in general, but not a great one for anyone investing in a higher drive working dog, IMHO.

Thats my trick for meeting shy or reserved guardian breeds- ignore while talking to owner until the dog is interested enough to come sniff has accepted me as background checked and "in the circle of trust"...

It is absolutely the best way. A few days ago I went over to a neighbors house so he could show me some things to check on for him while he's out of town. It's only about a 10 min walk, so I let him know I'd walk over and bring Asha. As I reached his barn, he came out of the house and toward us (of course) and Asha grumbled and her hackles raised and I said leave it. She was off leash with the e-coller on. She trotted big circles around not taking her eyes off of him, and he just ignored her, came over and showed me the water system for his tiny little plot of grass. Asha lost interest as soon as the two of us greeted and began talking. She went sniffing for rats in his wood pile, and left us completely alone but without getting out of sight. After about 10 - 15 minutes she came over and sat in front of him, like "you got any treats on you?" So, yeah, you have the method down perfect.

If I meet anyone new that doesn't know Asha this is exactly what I tell them: No talk, no touch, no eye contact, and she will come around to you. Do not reach out to her first.

 

[DobieDesire]

Yes, I've a friend that is a nightmare, gets all gooey at dogs, gets in their face, very first thing when she sees a dog, I haven't been able to 'train' her not to do that.

 

[Ravenbird]

@Ravenbird are you referring to this as "the brief outcrossing project in the US"? With pics?

yes, that's the one I saw years ago, then it seems to have gone caput.



This one is still active but nothing to do with out crossing, just studies on Dobermans health and long term results that may reveal genetic answers:

Dr McCue on the U Mn long term study progress

I hope this helps any confusion (at least in my mind) on acronyms, clarified. There will be a test later...

No tests!!! I'm up to my ears in acronyms and I have no idea what anyone is talking about half the time when it comes to acronyms!

"Safira is incredible socially stable, medium arousal, and high ball drive. She demonstrates excellent biddability, and her conformation is vastly improved over other working Dobermans.


When it's time to work, Safira turns ON. But when she is off the field, her excellent arousal control allows her to rest comfortably ANYWHERE. She is a Go Anywhere, Do Anything dog - a true brewery or cafe dog because she is so solid. She is a joy to have..."

Perfect doggo! It could describe Asha as a 6 year old, but not as a 3 or 4 year old, and depending on the environment, she's still not bulletproof, way too trigger happy at 6.

 

[BGpa]

Probably a good reading list for diversity in learning, but honestly these all lean toward PP/FF and I was talked into trying that with Asha as a puppy and it was a certified disaster. Soft, "normal" (LOL) puppies will do fine, if not great, with these methods, but a strong independent bossy puppy needs a lot of boundaries and strict reinforcement. I know I started reading Pukkas Promise, and it was ok, but think I never finished it because I just couldn't relate. I have no problems with positive training, but I do have a problem with trainers who criticize prong & e-collars. Laura V-B bio includes "snuggling with a Doberman with ears and a tail". Again, I have zero problems with natural Dobes. I advocate for them and have criticized DPCA for their policy of leaving them out of pictures. But between the lines I read "I'm not one of those people who mutilate their puppy". I don't tolerate intolerance from either side. The Sophie author is Sophie Yin, not Sophie Liu, so not the same...
Again, prolly a fine reading list in general, but not a great one for anyone investing in a higher drive working dog, IMHO.


It is absolutely the best way. A few days ago I went over to a neighbors house so he could show me some things to check on for him while he's out of town. It's only about a 10 min walk, so I let him know I'd walk over and bring Asha. As I reached his barn, he came out of the house and toward us (of course) and Asha grumbled and her hackles raised and I said leave it. She was off leash with the e-coller on. She trotted big circles around not taking her eyes off of him, and he just ignored her, came over and showed me the water system for his tiny little plot of grass. Asha lost interest as soon as the two of us greeted and began talking. She went sniffing for rats in his wood pile, and left us completely alone but without getting out of sight. After about 10 - 15 minutes she came over and sat in front of him, like "you got any treats on you?" So, yeah, you have the method down perfect.

If I meet anyone new that doesn't know Asha this is exactly what I tell them: No talk, no touch, no eye contact, and she will come around to you. Do not reach out to her first.

Thanks @Ravenbird not the first time i have transposed Dr Sophies...
And roger that on positive only. When someone insists on their dogmatic one way only I kinda walk.away...
Someone here said NILF and I applied that early on, works.

 

[BGpa]

Yes, I've a friend that is a nightmare, gets all gooey at dogs, gets in their face, very first thing when she sees a dog, I haven't been able to 'train' her not to do that.

She'll get bit one day. Our vet/techs said "yeah we dont stick our faces in dogs faces".