Basic training, so many ways. I have questions and need some advice please.

[Corky]

Hello. Charlie is 6 months old and 1/2 American and 1/2 European Doberman.
She’s lovely and waaaay too smart!
Basic training in the home.
Sit-
Drop it-
Off-some improvement for sure
Leash walking-not without harm to her humans!
She started training in a group setting. My husband took her. The instructor had hubby put on a prong collar.
Well apparently Charlie did amazing. (I was unable to attend the first session.
Honestly, I’m not a hate monger on the prong collar but I’m also not an advocate.
My husband was shocked at how well Charlie did with it. All of the larger dogs in the training session were using prong collars.
I’d sure like more experienced handlers to chime in. We’ve had many Dobermans but only 1 (Mr. Growly) who we raised up.
All the others were old Dobermans who we took in to spend their end of life time being spoiled and loved .
Puppyhood is harder than toddlerhood LOL and I’ve done a LOT of toddlers!
Anyway. Any thoughts?

 

[JanS]

I think prong collars are a great tool when used correctly. Usually 6 months is the earliest you should start using them and when used properly, the dog will correct itself instead of the constant pressure you get on the trachea with other collars. They normally learn pretty good leash manners in time and you won't need the prong anymore.

 

[Sunje]

I second prongs. Some dogs don't need them--my last male needed neither a prong nor an e-collar, and he walked perfectly on a loose leash, learned to heel very well and we competed in obedience. My current male (as well as my last female) needs both a prong and an e-collar. We also compete in obedience, but he is much more confident and independent than the last male and so asks "why?!" a lot more. Both the prong and e-collar are great tools when they are used correctly and when needed.

Sounds like you both are doing a great job w/ your girl!

 

[Oh Little Oji]

The situation with prong collars is kind of a paradox. They're so misunderstood that I think some countries have banned them; yet take a stroll around a farmers' market and so many nice young couples have their Goldens and Doodles in prongs.

I think the prong is a fine tool. We use one on our 77 lb. mixed breed puppy, and it makes him a lot easier for my wife to walk. I have never used one on one of my Dobes, but that's because I always felt like using one would be admitting to the world that I have a problem. They do make prong collars that are covered by leather or fabric for a more concealed look.

I was just reminding my wife this evening that some of the members here use prong collars that are of the more narrow width but are long enough to fit. It brings more effectiveness that way. We have one for the pup that is pretty narrow and it barely fits around his neck anymore. I definitely has more effectiveness on him than the large width one we also have.

On the heel training, I have had great success using The Koehler Method.

By the way, Mr. Growly – too funny. Thank you for giving several Dobes a good life!

 

[Corky]

I think prong collars are a great tool when used correctly. Usually 6 months is the earliest you should start using them and when used properly, the dog will correct itself instead of the constant pressure you get on the trachea with other collars. They normally learn pretty good leash manners in time and you won't need the prong anymore.

 

[Corky]

Thanks everyone! I so appreciate your time and input on Charlie girls training
Any chance you guys might have a picture of the collars you use?
After his first 1 hour training he was in “hook, line and sinker” for the prong collar.
Where does an E-collar come in?
It’s the shock collar?
I’m so glad to be able to come here with questions, some are likely dumb but I’d rather put a dumb question out there and learn than stay in the dark!
Thank you all again!
Corky

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Thanks everyone! I so appreciate your time and input on Charlie girls training
Any chance you guys might have a picture of the collars you use?
After his first 1 hour training he was in “hook, line and sinker” for the prong collar.
Where does an E-collar come in?
It’s the shock collar?
I’m so glad to be able to come here with questions, some are likely dumb but I’d rather put a dumb question out there and learn than stay in the dark!
Thank you all again!
Corky

I believe the quality brand of prong collar is called Herm Sprenger.

Yes, an e-collar is a shock collar (although the term also applies to the Elizabethan collar, which is that big cone worn around the neck to keep dogs from licking/biting at wounds as they heal). Electronic collars also have a tone setting (just a beep) and a vibration setting. You always try to use the minimum amount of shock to do the job. The beauty of it is it allows you to "reach" the dog at a distance. You use the collar to enforce rules and commands the dog has demonstrated that they understand and can follow. I tell ya', I've started saying that whoever invented the e-collar deserves the Nobel Peace Prize. Very often, a dog's entire attitude changes for the better when the e-collar is put on. In fact, with my current dog, I discovered that at the dinner table when he would be getting in our spaces and sniffing at our food, I would say to my family that I was about to go get the e-collar and lo and behold the dog understood my words and would move away from the table and settle down!

What is the recommended age to possibly introduce an e-collar, folks? 6 months? 9 months? Older? I admit I started using it with the puppy at probably 5 months or so! You'e just got to be fair and smart about things.

 

[Ravenbird]

I had a very strong independent puppy, and a prong collar changed everything. Not because of pain, they just kinda go, "oh, ok, I won't pull on this", and unless you have an extremely reactive dog that does, you can basically just move on with all obedience training with it on. Some dogs get to a point where they don't need it at all, some dogs will always be safer in public with it on. I have trialed my dog in different venues, prong collars are not allowed at all, and she does fine. But if I take her into public, tractor supply and such, I always use a prong because no matter how much obedience she can do, she can still pull like a freight train.

As mentioned, Herm Sprenger is the brand of choice, a little more expensive, but well worth the quality. Also the prongs go opposite directions from the middle out, rather than all going the same way. This addresses proper pressure. Many of the cheap collars the prongs are not rounded off, which leaves them unnecessarily sharp. I added a heavy duty snap to mine so I can slip it over the head instead of squeezing the prongs on to fasten it. They make them with snaps now. Also agree, the skinny ones are best for refined obedience training and the heavier ones for general walks and control for pulling. Since you have a trainer, I'm sure they can guide you to the right fit for your dog, best fit is higher up on the neck, never hanging low.

 

[Ravenbird]

Where does an E-collar come in?
It’s the shock collar?

Again, many dogs never need this and you need to learn how to use it from an experienced teacher. One rule of thumb is never use before your puppy knows the word "no". The most common reason to using it is to reinforce your rules, the most important rule in your dogs life is an impeccable recall and the e-collar is a perfect tool for that since recalls are usually done at distance where you can't correct the dog without one. Plus other things like chasing the cat or counter surfing or explosive barking from the back seat of the car. Paired with "no", it is usually pretty quick learning, but again, all depends on the hardness & determination of the dog. E collars can also be used at very low stems to train formal obedience but unless you are looking to compete at high levels that's probably not worth mentioning.

The E-collar quality is MOST important, do NOT get a cheap one with 4 or 10 settings. You must get one that has at least 100 settings on it, such as Dogtra or the Educator. Reason being is that on a cheap model with few settings, you might find #4 means nothing to your dog but you bump it up to #5 and it fries them. Fastest way ever to mess up your dog.

Use the search button up above to find several good discussions about e-collars!

 

[Sunje]

I take Brio on an off-leash run daily, as I live in a setting where that's easily done. He is very high-energy and needs the daily run. He wears a Dogtra--I like it, but it's on the bulky side. I do a lot of recalls w/ the vibrate setting and he responds very well to that. I only use the stim (ie, "shock") if he decides that he has to chase something and won't listen to either a vocal command or the vibrate. I try to head that off if I see a deer or whatever before he does; then I put him on the leash. But with the e-collar I at least have complete control off leash. I don't do obedience work w/ it because he doesn't need it, as he responds well to positive reinforcement in that more controlled setting.

 

[JanS]

Any chance you guys might have a picture of the collars you use?

We also use the Herm Sprenger prong in 2.25 mm.
We also have the covered ones from Lola Limited for taking them out and about so people don't readily see that it's a prong.

The top one here is a micro prong and they can be a bit harsh and the bottom one is the regular 2.25 mm.


And this one is the covered prong from Lola Limited.

I take Brio on an off-leash run daily, as I live in a setting where that's easily done. He is very high-energy and needs the daily run. He wears a Dogtra--I like it,

Same with us and we have the Dogtras as well but these are the iQ so they aren't as bulky.

 

[BGpa]

Most highly recommend go slow on e-collar use, never on a puppy or juvenile until you have built a strong foundation in +P .

The dog needs to know the behavior expected and proofed, before using the shock as part of operant conditioning commonly called "negative"

The old school gundog trainers used "crank and yank" methods that work but can create bad outcomes in a sensitive dobe. Lots of great interviews by Robert Cabral with guys who did and now say there is a better way in "balanced" use.

Most highly recommend watch videos by Mike Ellis, a celebrated IGF world champ who has many videos up on Leerburg, and a couple more at his own school site. That is oriented to train the trainers.

This is a callout to @MikeP who patiently laid out a breadcrumb trail for me to learn more and glad I did, as I was able to recognize a "suspicious behavior" Bonnie got from being stung by some africanized homeybees that I would have made worse later in unknowing noob use of the shock collar.

Be careful, build a strong base of +P on basic obedience, long line on recall etc and only later with dobe smart trainer should you add the e-collar as reinforcement.

 

[remy]

I use a 2.25mm Herm Sprenger prong for my boy. I switched out the center plate for a buckle to make taking it on/off easier. I also have a covered prong from Keeper Collars. I use it often but I will say it doesn’t seem to be as effective for my dog compared to the Herm Sprenger.
As for e-collars, I have the Mini Educator. I haven’t touched it in forever though so I’d need to brush up our skills with that.

 

[BGpa]

Hello. Charlie is 6 months old and 1/2 American and 1/2 European Doberman.
She’s lovely and waaaay too smart!
Basic training in the home.
Sit-
Drop it-
Off-some improvement for sure
Leash walking-not without harm to her humans!
She started training in a group setting. My husband took her. The instructor had hubby put on a prong collar.
Well apparently Charlie did amazing. (I was unable to attend the first session.
Honestly, I’m not a hate monger on the prong collar but I’m also not an advocate.
My husband was shocked at how well Charlie did with it. All of the larger dogs in the training session were using prong collars.
I’d sure like more experienced handlers to chime in. We’ve had many Dobermans but only 1 (Mr. Growly) who we raised up.
All the others were old Dobermans who we took in to spend their end of life time being spoiled and loved .
Puppyhood is harder than toddlerhood LOL and I’ve done a LOT of toddlers!
Anyway. Any thoughts?

Listen to the trainer.

Online resources are great but its too late to catch up, using generic advice you might try to find at this stage...the amount of info is too great- analysis paralysis!
But, you are in the right place:
There are a number of very wise dobe owners with breeding and training experience so start reading archives...here.

And most important- listen to your trainer. Dod I say that yet?
Its impossible to give good advice without seeing in person, so helpful tips are just that, and you are in the right place, for the best tips on dobes.

Attend together in person in sessions to resolve your concerns. Its absolutely a must that you and husband are on same page in technique and tools, to be clear with your dobe. Prongs and appropriate use of e-collars are completely ok and common in "balanced training". E-collars typically have more than one mode, tones, vibration, stim (electric shock) and properly done with markers, rewards, etc its part of the tool box.

These dogs are smart, biddable, and will test you. They are relatively easy to train if YOU the two legged are well trained, but...it takes patience, consistency, and practice practice practice on the basics, and I'd highly recommend AKC puppy, basic obedience, and CGC as the foundation. Ask your trainer.

Or equivalent- if you want to DIY with occasional trainer advice if you get stuck.

All of the steps are online on youtubes if you search- see Dogs, Inc from nine years ago
As one example
and pay particular attention to @Ladydi posts on puppy training)
Most important: Have fun!
Its a journey.
Good news its a dobe bitch- they mature faster, get their brains at two vs three on the big goofy males, and you will suddenly find you have the best family companion yet.

 

[BGpa]

PS: off leash walking and recall at six months is unrealistic and unsafe unless in a fenced place. Start using a 20' longline for recall.

100% bulletproof off leash recall is a very high task. E-collar for this as insurance after careful training in appropriate use.

 

[LifeofRubie]

just agreeing with others: Herm Sprenger 2.25mm. Looks like they're available at Chewy and Amazon. Absolutely do NOT get any other brand. There is also 100% a correct and incorrect way to use a prong (and eCollar) and that's where a lot of the miseducation comes from.

Timing the communication on both devices is essential and comes with practice and very clear understanding of your wants and the correct response from your dog.

 

[JanS]

Here's a good thread about e-collar training.

Thread 'Training the e-collar'

Apr 30, 2012

Admin note: This thread was separated out to it's thread since there's so much good training info here. Original thread can be found here:
http://www.doberman-chat.com/commun...es-first-porcupine-graphic-kinda.13294/page-5

So, like the others here, here's my thoughts............first off, I really agree with Jan on the this happening again and again. I have no experience with porcupines, just some info from watching that show, Dr. Pole. http://www.facebook.com/TheIncredibleDrPol
There was a guy on there that was in with his two hunting...

• Liberty & Justice
• Replies: 73
• Forum: Training & Behavior

• 

 

[Ddski5]

Absolute yes to the prong collar. If used correctly, it will not only eliminate pulling but also facilitate obedience basic/intermediate commands.
Get the Herm Sprenger 2.25”. If you Doberman is black/rust get the black one. It fades in nicely with the coat. You could hardly see it on my black male and it’s not too noticeable on my red female.

The ECollar is a tool that reinforces what you have taught them. It’s like dealing with a teenager that knows he is supposed to do it correctly but chooses not to. Yes, Dobermans have a teenager phase we call the Doberteens. You tell him to sit or stay and they just look at you and choose not to do it. Well off leash with no access to the prong, you can use the ECollar to stim, beep or vibrate. When you train with them long enough and they understand what’s going on, then it becomes rare that I have to use the stim/shock. The majority of times the vibrate/beep does the job and gets their attention. Other than that the stim would just be used to pull them out of a prey drive frenzy or get their attention damn quick as if they were trying to cross a road 40 ft away.

And then again it really depends on the Doberman in front of you (@Ravenbird). My first Doberman was an asshat beast that would get so jacked up in prey drive that it was hell to pull him back to reality- the prong and ECollar was absolutely necessary with him. My 2nd Doberman was so sensitive to the prong collar that it only took 3-4 training sessions with it. She learned very quickly and transitioned to flat collar quickly. Have the ECollar but she does not roam, she stays very close to me so no worries there.

I truly believe it depends on the amount of work and training you do with them young. You want a trained Doberman that listens and pays attention to you intently? Train with them daily and they will be golden at prob 12-15months.

If you do this half ass and lazy.?.? You will get a crack head Doberman that is unruly and disobedient.

With Dobermans…you truly get what you put into them.

 

[Corky]

You all are a wealth of information!
This training is a 6 week course to try to get the walking under control.
No E-collar (never thought about one before reading here).
We are open to doing a couple rounds of basic training but then she we are thinking about service dog training which is a 6 month course.
I’ll be in this training as well, we will talk to our trainer about the prong collar and also see if the trainer is ok with the kids going so they can also learn.
Thanks again everyone! I’ll write down the names of the prong collar and the E-collar too (for info reasons since she is. So young and just learning)

 

[BGpa]

You all are a wealth of information!
This training is a 6 week course to try to get the walking under control.
No E-collar (never thought about one before reading here).
We are open to doing a couple rounds of basic training but then she we are thinking about service dog training which is a 6 month course.
I’ll be in this training as well, we will talk to our trainer about the prong collar and also see if the trainer is ok with the kids going so they can also learn.
Thanks again everyone! I’ll write down the names of the prong collar and the E-collar too (for info reasons since she is. So young and just learning)

Lots of good info legal and training wise at reddit sub r/service_dogs

Have you owner trained a service dog before?
Has the trainer?
Has the trainer trained a SD team that includes a big strong protective breed?


Lots to think about, but the common answer here is you need first a rock solid base of obedience, up thru CGC with
a lot of exposure to social situations with pretty much unfailing calm confident focus on you, and restraint on reacting to idiot people or dogs.
Look for @Ladydi posts about Dogs, Inc as to insight on how much training goes into dogs while young...

Be prepared to answer the question: what do you do with your dobe if it washes out of SD work? What do you do with well trained dobe that needs continuing above average effort...

While you are owner training the next one...or waiting on a program dog.

Just tossing out food for thought. Lots more in the FAQs at r/service_dogs
(And caveat: I have no use for reddit otherwise due to the rank politicization etc
so Caveat Emptor on how some of that drama bleeds over...

In the meantime the best way to improve chances aa SD is all the work and time yiu are putting into puppy-basic obedience-CGC (and see the PAT as a set of basic tasks and behaviors beyond CGC)

Have fun and enjoy the training.