Specific kidney problems in Romanian Dobermans that have been imported to the UK.

[Charlotte M]

I am new to this site after recently losing our wonderful 7 year old. He was a rescue we were so privileged to have from a rescue home. We got him when we was 2 and a half so he was only in our lives for 4 and a half years. Prior to us getting him, he had had 2 previous owners who returned him to the home before we got him. We have his passport. He had had all his vaccines etc. He died fairly suddenly - showing no real signs of illness. The vet said his kidney results were off the scale. He also had scans etc there was no signs of any blockages but his left kidney was slightly enlarged and showed signs of scarring. The vet mentioned that he had had another dog from Romania where this had occurred and said there is a propensity in this specific European dobe for this to happen - can anyone throw any light on this baffling situation that is haunting me - i need to know how it happened. Thank you all so much and for this site - it is so helpful and everyone so committed and passionate.

 

[BGpa]

Hmm. Never heard of this but basically new to dobes here with just the one.
Is the vet suggesting its a genetic trait?

I'm reminded that leptospirosis is world wide and does lethal damage to kidnets.

 

[JanS]

The vet mentioned that he had had another dog from Romania where this had occurred and said there is a propensity in this specific European dobe for this to happen - can anyone throw any light on this baffling situation that is haunting me - i need to know how it happened.

I think it would be pretty hard to narrow it down to European dogs or even Romanian dogs. They simply need to do more health testing in Europe before breeding Dobermans or any other breed for that matter. I think many breeders are getting much better about it though.

 

[BGpa]

Hmm. Never heard of this but basically new to dobes here with just the one.
Is the vet suggesting its a genetic trait?

I'm reminded that leptospirosis is world wide and does lethal damage to kidnets.

Dang, I had a couple of links for more but ran into the edit clock...but found nothing specific to a romanian line with genetic kidney disease.
Here are a couple instances that *might* be what your vet was referring to...

Dobes in general are predisposed to this:

https://www.carsonvet.com/services/dogs/breeds/doberman-pinscher

And there was a brucellosis outbreak from Romanian dogs in 2019:

Transboundary Spread of Brucella canis through Import of Infected Dogs, the Netherlands, November 2016–December 2018 - PMC

Brucella canis had not been isolated in the Netherlands until November 2016, when it was isolated from a dog imported from Romania. Including this case, 16 suspected cases were notified to the authorities during the following 25 months. Of these 16 ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Ravenbird]

I fount this article, may be too detailed unless you're into the science studies, but it does allude to "related dogs from one breeder", but I don't think they disclosed the breeder in the article.

Utility of Urinary Markers in the Assessment of Renal Dysfunction in Familial Glomerulonephritis in Dobermann Dogs - PMC

Dobermann dogs are reportedly predisposed to familial glomerulonephropathy. Proteinuria is a hallmark of canine familial glomerular diseases. The identification of glomerular abnormalities in breeds so predisposed is of great importance in improving ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"A presumptive diagnosis of familial nephropathy in 10 dogs was made on the basis of proteinuria, the close relationships between the dogs self-evident in their origin from a single dog breeder, and the history of urinary tract disorders in other dogs from the same breeder that developed polyuria and polydipsia, leading to death or euthanasia."


If you are comfortable with it, I'd be interested in seeing your dogs pedigree. Pedigrees are also how many Doberman buyers are narrowing down lines that carry DCM, since there is not at reliable genetic marker for that. This study is too small to be highly significant but it's still distressing to realize that here is one more thing that Dobermans are predisposed to.

 

[Charlotte M]

I fount this article, may be too detailed unless you're into the science studies, but it does allude to "related dogs from one breeder", but I don't think they disclosed the breeder in the article.

Utility of Urinary Markers in the Assessment of Renal Dysfunction in Familial Glomerulonephritis in Dobermann Dogs - PMC

Dobermann dogs are reportedly predisposed to familial glomerulonephropathy. Proteinuria is a hallmark of canine familial glomerular diseases. The identification of glomerular abnormalities in breeds so predisposed is of great importance in improving ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"A presumptive diagnosis of familial nephropathy in 10 dogs was made on the basis of proteinuria, the close relationships between the dogs self-evident in their origin from a single dog breeder, and the history of urinary tract disorders in other dogs from the same breeder that developed polyuria and polydipsia, leading to death or euthanasia."


If you are comfortable with it, I'd be interested in seeing your dogs pedigree. Pedigrees are also how many Doberman buyers are narrowing down lines that carry DCM, since there is not at reliable genetic marker for that. This study is too small to be highly significant but it's still distressing to realize that here is one more thing that Dobermans are predisposed to.

Thank you so much for this info. I shall read it all to the best of my abilities. With regards to his pedigree details, we only have his passport and nothing else - we got him from the rescue centre - he had had 2 previous owners and the rescue centre said that all they were given from the previous owners was the passport. I imagine the previous owner would have invested a lot in him - why they didn’t pass this on to the rescue centre is odd considering they passed on the passport. If they decided to take him to a rescue centre (that incidentally specialised in dobermans why didn’t they pass on this info/documents to them.) Either way that’s the only info we have of him. Thank you again for sending this article.

 

[BGpa]

Thank you so much for this info. I shall read it all to the best of my abilities. With regards to his pedigree details, we only have his passport and nothing else - we got him from the rescue centre - he had had 2 previous owners and the rescue centre said that all they were given from the previous owners was the passport. I imagine the previous owner would have invested a lot in him - why they didn’t pass this on to the rescue centre is odd considering they passed on the passport. If they decided to take him to a rescue centre (that incidentally specialised in dobermans why didn’t they pass on this info/documents to them.) Either way that’s the only info we have of him. Thank you again for sending this article.

Good questions @Charlotte M
I like to "talk dog" when out and about walking Bonnie and standing around in off-leash dig parks- I meet the neatest people, btw. Having a dog and taking good care of it is the quality cut for anyone I want to spend time with...call
Me elitist, I dont care!

Anyhoo...this is pretty common;
1. Big strong dogs get returned often in the teenage knucklehead stage as most prople aren't able or willing to commit to the training (of the human!) thats required. Go see how many mals, gsds, whatever last years hot dog on IG or TikTok given up when the "influencers" fashion accessory is too much trouble to handle...

Rescue shelters either dont get that info or its not something most are going to go into...other than "its a lab mix, good with other animals" etc. Hope thats not too cynical but there is some value in that, if only for insurance reasons.
Sadly, shelters are under pressure of too many dogs or they gotta move product to keep the lights on...if you got a good healthy dobe in general with no temperament issues you are far ahead. The kidney problem is most likely just a function of "life happens" in this breed, frankly. From what you have written, it could be a symptom of several different origins...not a vet, nor disputing your's but just a fact.

I wouldnt spend much time worrying about the cause except pat yourself on the back for being a good owner of your passed away dobe.

And start putting that to work on the next one. Nothing heals the broken heart like a new dog.

And continue read up in general on dobe genetic issues- DCM, Copper Storage Disease, thyroid esp if spayed, seem to be the big three imho. VWD status should be known before going into surgery.

Get pet insurance right away on next dobe.
Wouldnt cover the pre-existing kidney disease but may help on other problems, so on the next one you'll have that lesson learned too.

Here is the deal: All purebreeds have issues due to inbreeding, some more than others and "dobies arent cheap or easy keepers as they say..."
but worth it for what they are bred for- i could go on and on how special but you already know that.

You might get some info on last dogs origin if you could have done an Embark DNA test, possibly locate littermates if those owners also did Embark and share results via the app "share" feature. Then talk to breeder if those owners can recall.

So put that on your list for next rescue dobe.

I was able to confirm BYB Bonnies NA/EU mix and surprisingly low COI of 21%, even though I couldn't get the breeder info; The one owner of a pup in same litter had his identity set to "private".

PS: does the passport have registration number on it? @Ravenbird or someone familiar with AKC and FCI numbers can probably run down more info, and you can share privately using the little envelope symbol on to of the website header bar...

But if its any help- you did a great job, gave a dobe a new home, and you need to remember that and all the good you did.

And do it again. You are a good human being and some dobe will be waiting for you when you are ready.

 

[Ravenbird]

I don't know about the shelters reasoning, or breeding requirements across the pond, but in the US, dogs like Bonnie may not have papers at all. So many back yard breeders don't even register their pups, just breed a Dobe to a Dobe and sell Doberman puppies. Or some BYB may charge extra for registration papers and someone just looking for a "purebred" pet doesn't see any reason to pay more for papers they'd never use. And I can actually see shelters not wanting to give papers with a rescue, least the human get an idea of going to that breeder for their second dog if they like their rescue dog.

 

[Charlotte M]

Good questions @Charlotte M
I like to "talk dog" when out and about walking Bonnie and standing around in off-leash dig parks- I meet the neatest people, btw. Having a dog and taking good care of it is the quality cut for anyone I want to spend time with...call
Me elitist, I dont care!

Anyhoo...this is pretty common;
1. Big strong dogs get returned often in the teenage knucklehead stage as most prople aren't able or willing to commit to the training (of the human!) thats required. Go see how many mals, gsds, whatever last years hot dog on IG or TikTok given up when the "influencers" fashion accessory is too much trouble to handle...

Rescue shelters either dont get that info or its not something most are going to go into...other than "its a lab mix, good with other animals" etc. Hope thats not too cynical but there is some value in that, if only for insurance reasons.
Sadly, shelters are under pressure of too many dogs or they gotta move product to keep the lights on...if you got a good healthy dobe in general with no temperament issues you are far ahead. The kidney problem is most likely just a function of "life happens" in this breed, frankly. From what you have written, it could be a symptom of several different origins...not a vet, nor disputing your's but just a fact.

I wouldnt spend much time worrying about the cause except pat yourself on the back for being a good owner of your passed away dobe.

And start putting that to work on the next one. Nothing heals the broken heart like a new dog.

And continue read up in general on dobe genetic issues- DCM, Copper Storage Disease, thyroid esp if spayed, seem to be the big three imho. VWD status should be known before going into surgery.

Get pet insurance right away on next dobe.
Wouldnt cover the pre-existing kidney disease but may help on other problems, so on the next one you'll have that lesson learned too.

Here is the deal: All purebreeds have issues due to inbreeding, some more than others and "dobies arent cheap or easy keepers as they say..."
but worth it for what they are bred for- i could go on and on how special but you already know that.

You might get some info on last dogs origin if you could have done an Embark DNA test, possibly locate littermates if those owners also did Embark and share results via the app "share" feature. Then talk to breeder if those owners can recall.

So put that on your list for next rescue dobe.

I was able to confirm BYB Bonnies NA/EU mix and surprisingly low COI of 21%, even though I couldn't get the breeder info; The one owner of a pup in same litter had his identity set to "private".

PS: does the passport have registration number on it? @Ravenbird or someone familiar with AKC and FCI numbers can probably run down more info, and you can share privately using the little envelope symbol on to of the website header bar...

But if its any help- you did a great job, gave a dobe a new home, and you need to remember that and all the good you did.

And do it again. You are a good human being and some dobe will be waiting for you when you are ready.

Thank you so much for all this information and for your knowledge and support - lots of things for me to think about thank you!

 

[Charlotte M]

Good questions @Charlotte M
I like to "talk dog" when out and about walking Bonnie and standing around in off-leash dig parks- I meet the neatest people, btw. Having a dog and taking good care of it is the quality cut for anyone I want to spend time with...call
Me elitist, I dont care!

Anyhoo...this is pretty common;
1. Big strong dogs get returned often in the teenage knucklehead stage as most prople aren't able or willing to commit to the training (of the human!) thats required. Go see how many mals, gsds, whatever last years hot dog on IG or TikTok given up when the "influencers" fashion accessory is too much trouble to handle...

Rescue shelters either dont get that info or its not something most are going to go into...other than "its a lab mix, good with other animals" etc. Hope thats not too cynical but there is some value in that, if only for insurance reasons.
Sadly, shelters are under pressure of too many dogs or they gotta move product to keep the lights on...if you got a good healthy dobe in general with no temperament issues you are far ahead. The kidney problem is most likely just a function of "life happens" in this breed, frankly. From what you have written, it could be a symptom of several different origins...not a vet, nor disputing your's but just a fact.

I wouldnt spend much time worrying about the cause except pat yourself on the back for being a good owner of your passed away dobe.

And start putting that to work on the next one. Nothing heals the broken heart like a new dog.

And continue read up in general on dobe genetic issues- DCM, Copper Storage Disease, thyroid esp if spayed, seem to be the big three imho. VWD status should be known before going into surgery.

Get pet insurance right away on next dobe.
Wouldnt cover the pre-existing kidney disease but may help on other problems, so on the next one you'll have that lesson learned too.

Here is the deal: All purebreeds have issues due to inbreeding, some more than others and "dobies arent cheap or easy keepers as they say..."
but worth it for what they are bred for- i could go on and on how special but you already know that.

You might get some info on last dogs origin if you could have done an Embark DNA test, possibly locate littermates if those owners also did Embark and share results via the app "share" feature. Then talk to breeder if those owners can recall.

So put that on your list for next rescue dobe.

I was able to confirm BYB Bonnies NA/EU mix and surprisingly low COI of 21%, even though I couldn't get the breeder info; The one owner of a pup in same litter had his identity set to "private".

PS: does the passport have registration number on it? @Ravenbird or someone familiar with AKC and FCI numbers can probably run down more info, and you can share privately using the little envelope symbol on to of the website header bar...

But if its any help- you did a great job, gave a dobe a new home, and you need to remember that and all the good you did.

And do it again. You are a good human being and some dobe will be waiting for you when you are ready.

Than you so much for all this information! And for your support

 

[Charlotte M]

I don't know about the shelters reasoning, or breeding requirements across the pond, but in the US, dogs like Bonnie may not have papers at all. So many back yard breeders don't even register their pups, just breed a Dobe to a Dobe and sell Doberman puppies. Or some BYB may charge extra for registration papers and someone just looking for a "purebred" pet doesn't see any reason to pay more for papers they'd never use. And I can actually see shelters not wanting to give papers with a rescue, least the human get an idea of going to that breeder for their second dog if they like their rescue dog.

Never thought of this , such a good point.

 

[BGpa]

I fount this article, may be too detailed unless you're into the science studies, but it does allude to "related dogs from one breeder", but I don't think they disclosed the breeder in the article.

Utility of Urinary Markers in the Assessment of Renal Dysfunction in Familial Glomerulonephritis in Dobermann Dogs - PMC

Dobermann dogs are reportedly predisposed to familial glomerulonephropathy. Proteinuria is a hallmark of canine familial glomerular diseases. The identification of glomerular abnormalities in breeds so predisposed is of great importance in improving ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"A presumptive diagnosis of familial nephropathy in 10 dogs was made on the basis of proteinuria, the close relationships between the dogs self-evident in their origin from a single dog breeder, and the history of urinary tract disorders in other dogs from the same breeder that developed polyuria and polydipsia, leading to death or euthanasia."


If you are comfortable with it, I'd be interested in seeing your dogs pedigree. Pedigrees are also how many Doberman buyers are narrowing down lines that carry DCM, since there is not at reliable genetic marker for that. This study is too small to be highly significant but it's still distressing to realize that here is one more thing that Dobermans are predisposed to.

Thats the one I was trying to add as well...I can see how a vet might have read that and want to help a grieving owner come to terms with loss by giving an answer that helps explain that sometimes, we cant see ahead or test for everything, in dogs- like humams, in health conditions.
We can do our best for next time, by the learnings of the past. But dont spend time ruminating on bad feelings about what was not in your control@Charlotte M

 

[Two Dobes]

"I wouldnt spend much time worrying about the cause except pat yourself on the back for being a good owner of your passed away dobe."

Agreed! Thank you for giving him a wonderful home!