Importance of Temperament in Breeding

I don't have much useful input but I'm watching this.
You had very useful input. Your dog is pretty typical of the breed now and this is exactly why I brought this up: If it was just a few, then sure, there are always dogs that are more sensitive than others. But for this to become the "norm" for breed, that's what is upsetting. Vet stress is real with 90% of all the dog population, so I'd be inclined to not "grade harshly" on that compared to everyday weaknesses. And again, when you know where your dog is lacking, you can add training and management, because you hunt and want to take your dog to target practice.

But for breeders, if they WAE test all their potential breeding stock to find that some are gun shy, but is a shining star in every other way, simply look to breed only to ones that have passed. If they don't do sports with gunshot, there is no reason to train them to tolerate it (sometimes impossible anyway) or embarrassed by it, but for goodness sake and sake of the breed, find a mate for that dog who did not over-react and easily recovered from gunshot in the WAE test! At least lower the chances of % of noise-phobic puppies in the litter. There is no training for WAE, so no excuse why not to test. Hold your head up if you don't pass, use the information to enhance your breeding and be the first one on the block to say so.
 
Maybe it’s from my limited experience, but I haven’t encountered any Dobermans (in person at least) that are quite as extreme as she describing. I don’t doubt there are some out there though, unfortunately. I would hope those dogs are cases of bad genetics coupled with poor training though, rather than the “new normal” for the breed.

I do wish more breeders would title their dogs. In anything really… Often times Remy is one of the few (sometimes the only) Doberman(s) at shows with any sort of title (minus conformation titles of course). Many of the “big name” stud dogs have a championship title and nothing more. I wish instead of “campaigning” the dogs for years, the owners would take that time to train and compete in performance sports instead. Many larger shows even offer CGC or ATT testing. While they might not be super impressive titles, I do think they can give a little insight to the dog’s temperament. The CGC has a portion for “supervised separation” which is one of the issues the author of the post mentioned.

If what she says is becoming the breeds “new normal”, I hope my next Doberman has a similar temperament to Remy. He’s been pretty confident since he was a puppy, has good drive (prey, food, toy), zero noise sensitivity, athletic, watchful but doesn’t react without reason, good off-switch, go anywhere type of dog…I originally got him as “just” a pet but became interested in sports and have now tried conformation, scent work, rally, agility, barn hunt and IGP (although I really need to get back into that). He’s enjoyed it all!

He’s always had the ability to make himself comfortable no matter where he is. He was about 12 weeks old here at a vet appointment.
IMG_5375.webp
15 weeks old at his first class. I remember he was the only dog that was calm and didn’t bark. The trainer told me “you can do anything you want with this dog” and she was right!IMG_0541.webpIMG_0545.webp

Video of him playing with a flirt pole for the first time. (13 weeks old)

Video of him on the last few 4th of Julys from 6 months to 2.5 years old. He was never bothered by fireworks, gun shots, loud cars, etc…

Sorry if I got off topic, I guess I’m just comparing my experience as a newer person to what the author describes.
 
He’s been pretty confident since he was a puppy, has good drive (prey, food, toy), zero noise sensitivity, athletic, watchful but doesn’t react without reason, good off-switch, go anywhere type of dog…
He's an awesome example of good balanced temperament, and I've always liked seeing the variety of things you've done with him when you post. Wondering if he got the whining trait or how he is when he's left alone at home. Those are the things that are hardest to deal with for first time Dobe owners and that we see time & again on this forum: they can't go to work without crating and then they tear up or eat what's in the crate or bark all day while they're gone. Asha's good for about 2 -3 hours, then starts pacing. She never touches anything, will not even chew a bone if she's alone, doesn't even get on the couch... but she does become anxious after a couple hours. She's better loose in the house. If I'm at a get-together next door (5 acres away) she can hear us outside on the patio and will bark on & off, but continually. If I'm gone to town she doesn't bark. (I've asked the neighbors for reports when I'm gone a few hours. If my housemate is home with Reckless she's quiet and rests until she has decided I've been gone too long - usually the 2 - 3 hour marker - then wants out & back in and gets restless but will settle when told to. At any rate, it's anxiety and I hate that it exists.
 
He's an awesome example of good balanced temperament, and I've always liked seeing the variety of things you've done with him when you post.
Thank you! Sometimes I worry I post too much, so I’m glad someone likes to see them 😂
Wondering if he got the whining trait or how he is when he's left alone at home.
He does whine occasionally, but I would say it’s far from excessive and he will stop if I tell him to. He’s very quiet in the crate at home and in the car. I can drive for hours and hours without him making a sound. He does what I’ll call a scream for rabbits (although he’s getting better with that now) and FastCat lures, but I personally don’t mind that lol.

He does great when he’s home alone. When he was younger I would leave him crated, but now he is loose in a room that is gated off from the rest of the house. I have a camera and I’ll check up on him occasionally. I’d say 90% of the time he is asleep and he usually puts himself in the crate to nap. IMG_2824.webp
 
I think you will get that if you stick with similar lines to Remy.
I’ve been watching to see if any litters that interest me are announced. I would’ve loved to have another puppy already, but I don’t mind waiting for the “right” one. Plus, I do so much with Remy right now, I’m sure I’d need to cut back a little once I had a second dog to show and trial with.

I would really love a puppy from him honestly, but that’s if I can finish his championship and if someone wants to breed their bitch to him lol.
 
He’s very quiet in the crate at home and in the car. I can drive for hours and hours without him making a sound.
Yeah, same here. Even at trials, crating is fine, I can walk off and go watch someone else and Asha is fine. I was referring to being left alone which has become a problem in the breed. Remy def sounds like a good boy with very little anxiety. Fast Cat screaming is not at all a problem in my mind - that's amped up drive and nobody is required to damp it down.

I would really love a puppy from him honestly, but that’s if I can finish his championship and if someone wants to breed their bitch to him lol.
And this is the other point of this post. I know CH is important to keep the Doberman to standard, but here you've given us a perfect example of great temperament and athleticism but maybe not what it takes to compete in the show ring. Assuming he has or could pass all required health testing, good dogs like this are not used because they don't stand out for whatever reason. So the pool continues to dwindle...
 
Anyone read the book "The Dog Merchants"? By Kim Kavan?


Fascinating look into several areas not typically discussed other than the sort of scorn directed at BYBs or responsible breeders who are not yet on DPCA or UDC referral list.

One point she makes is the demand in Amercia is far more than the supply from top ethical preservation breeders- not everyone will do hours of research and wait months.

The free market fills a need that's unmet, as in un-pedigreed BYBs, Serbian scammers, and commercial breeders like Kimbertal, with the effects on temperament as described.

A very interesting source to rescues is orders filled and transported to them at auctions where one commercial breeder admits its 40% of their sales...

Search for Mike Arms (Helen Woodward) speeches or read his explanation in the book justifying this; the problem is not the dogs, its the buyers...

Show dog breeders dont keep the dogs that dont make the confo cut for latest fashion in a nice head, etc. Those dogs go to a good screened home (if they are lucky) as "a performance pet..."

But if they are not good enough to show, then is the breeder going to show for work to proof temperament?
Are the pet buyers taking the time or even know they can to be tested and proofed for performance in calm confident temperament?

What I'm reading is we should be looking for PROOF in CGC and pass or high grade in WAE or ATT, as the starting point amiright?

What else is needed for a ROM?
Can one search pedigrees on Dobequest or elsewhere for that as a starting point on calm confident guardian temperament?

Then look for longevity either as LC on Dobequest or if missing (since not everyone updates that promptly)- look up the line for COD and age. Where can you get that, independent of breeder self reporting?

What other sources, other than work the list of breeders producing those names?

Look at who is winning at AWDF or UDC or UKC trials?
 
I was referring to being left alone which has become a problem in the breed.
He is quiet/calm then too.
Fast Cat screaming is not at all a problem in my mind - that's amped up drive and nobody is required to damp it down.
That’s my thoughts as well. I love how much he loves it, although I usually have a sore back and arms the next time haha.
And this is the other point of this post. I know CH is important to keep the Doberman to standard, but here you've given us a perfect example of great temperament and athleticism but maybe not what it takes to compete in the show ring. Assuming he has or could pass all required health testing, good dogs like this are not used because they don't stand out for whatever reason. So the pool continues to dwindle...
I agree with you. You can look at show results from all over the country during the same weekend and see the same few studs over and over again… I’m not saying they aren’t great dogs, but I do think many become overused. I think these dogs are a “safe” option for breeders since they already have many proven progeny.

I think, or at least hope, he can get his AKC championship. I’ve talked to many breeders and handlers who agree. Probably the most common things I hear are “I don’t know how he doesn’t have more points” or “I don’t know how he isn’t finished yet”. My favorite though was from a breeder of working/show dogs that said “he looks like he can do the work!” I’ve learned most conformation people won’t say things like this unless they mean it… some are not known for being the friendliest lol. I do think part of it is not so great handling on my part. I definitely do a better job at home than at shows. I may hire a handler in the future and see how that goes. I also think I can be pickier with the judges I enter him under. Many seem to prefer a “flashier” dog in terms of movement and structure.

He is almost done with his UKC and IABCA championships. He has all of his competition wins in UKC (plus one) and just needs a few more points. In IABCA he just needs one more V-1 rating (he got 2 at his first show). Neither of those championships hold much weight to AKC conformation people though…

So far all of his health testing is good! He needs his first echocardiogram and eye exam still, but these are his results for everything else:
OFA hips: good
OFA elbows: normal
OFA dentition: full
OFA thyroid: normal
24 hour holter: normal
DCM 1 & 2: negative
VWD: clear
Dings: clear

Even if he’s never bred, I plan to keep up with the annual testing for my own peace of mind.
 
What I'm reading is we should be looking for PROOF in CGC and pass or high grade in WAE or ATT, as the starting point amiright?
I’m not sure if this is what you mean, but if you know a dog’s registered name or number you can look them up on AKC to confirm their titles. As for the WAE, all of the dogs that pass have their results available to the public on the DPCA website.
What else is needed for a ROM?
Can one search pedigrees on Dobequest or elsewhere for that as a starting point on calm confident guardian temperament?
For the ROM a dog needs an AKC conformation championship, to have passed the WAE, and have a qualifying performance title (you can find which are eligible on the DPCA website).

On DobeQuest you can filter the results to include certain titles. This assumes the dog’s profile has been updated to reflect what titles they’ve earned though.
 
the problem is not the dogs, its the buyers..
basically, yes. This goes for BYB, Show & Working dogs, in the sense that if a buyer refuses to purchase untested dogs, whether it's health tested or titled in certain areas, then the breeder would have to change their ways. I held my standards high when I was looking for a puppy but I didn't know enough at that time about pedigree research. It may or may not have made any difference in my choice but both parents passed every health test, both had titles front and back in what mattered to me. Conformation titles meant little to me because if they proved on the field they could do the work, that meant they had to be put together well physically.

if a buyer refuses to purchase untested dogs, whether it's health tested or titled in certain areas, then the breeder would have to change their ways.
Going back to this - if a trend starts in the show ring that you don't like - let's say the GSD down in the rear so bad it can barely stand up - change breeds or quit showing, but don't breed dogs to win in the show ring that you don't agree with! If that means becoming a quality pet breeder without show CH's, keep your head up, advertise exactly why you don't have AKC CHs in your program, and trial your dogs in obedience, rally, nose work or something else to prove they would make great companions. And to go another step, let the judges and AKC know you won't breed crippled dogs and if enough quit showing then things *might* change. LOL, but I doubt it. It's a vicious circle. I'm speaking of physical problems in this case where I hold judges pinning the most exaggerated dogs over normal dogs responsible for breeders aiming at more exaggerations.

What I'm reading is we should be looking for PROOF in CGC and pass or high grade in WAE or ATT, as the starting point
For a buyer, yes, a starting point, A CGC is wonderful, but I'd never buy a puppy from a line of dogs that that's all the titles they have. CGCA & CGCU involve more steady temperament as does the ATT and then WAE adds the steadiness of a dog under gunfire and threat by a stranger. My dog passed her CGC and CGCA at about 10 months old and just as everyone was done and we were all high-5-ing each other a man walked by on the street and Asha exploded barking and lunging on the leash. The judge rolled her eyes, but the paperwork was done and I did get my titles. Just saying how these titles are good, but not always 100% proof of a solid temperament.

Can one search pedigrees on Dobequest or elsewhere for that as a starting point on calm confident guardian temperament?
Again, the article as I read it is talking about things that titles don't reflect! So no, titles can't tell you if the dog has a reactive temperament on daily walks, or at the ring-side, or tears up and eats toys, or whines incessantly on the long down. ((again, using my dog as an example we passed our BH - a temperament test on steroids - but her long down was spent whining at a volume heard across the miles. Point off, but she didn't move from her down-stay, the judge comments afterward were strong about it for sure.)) I only can suggest now to ask breeders about dogs quirks and personalities at home and pray for honesty.
What titles DO say, is that the dog is trainable to the point where it can respect the job at hand and probably takes joy in working with its owner/handler, which is extremely high on my list.
Also remember that Dobequest is a pedigree database with information only entered by DPCA members. As discussed elsewhere, it's not easy to become a member so without asking a member to do it for you, you can't enter information on your own dog. Thus, Dobequest is a very incomplete resource. AKC website is hard to navigate, but you can look up Points Progression on a registered name and it will list current titles and if the dog as partial points or qualifying runs to a new title.

longevity either as LC on Dobequest or if missing (since not everyone updates that promptly)- look up the line for COD and age. Where can you get that, independent of breeder self reporting?
Every resource I have found is self-reporting. Most CODs are not listed, but more and more, I think breeders are realizing that we are looking at this and will pointedly ask if it's not listed.
Look at who is winning at AWDF or UDC or UKC trials?
Trial results are a place to start, but for working Dobes getting through even club level IGP is helpful. There are so few trialing and most owners in working sports are into sports, not breeding. So especially good bitches may not be used. Also it takes years to get to high levels and bitches ideally need to be bred by age 3 or 4 for health reasons, so there's that. And if you don't plan to do bite sports, these dogs will have a lot more energy that has to be accounted for. Which leads right back to the article of having drive without anxiety. So we've gone full circle again. :rofl:
 
As I recall, there are differences in the WAE and ATT, but both are the same in concept- that you dont TRAIN for this...you just test to see what you got...

You could have two puppies that are exactly the same and give them to different owners to raise (in different environments) and guess what is going to happen with respect to what those dogs learn individually?

Depends on the owner and person raising the dog... :)

You could have one owner that lives somewhere upstairs. Stairs that their dog has to do every day and sometimes multiple times a day. Lets just say for giggles that one set of those stairs are carpeted and some are smooth tile or wood (slippery as hell for a dog). Most likely that particular dog is going to learn pretty quickly how to not be concerned about any sort of stairs they would ever be likely to encounter in the general public.


You could have another owner raise their Doberman in a environment where there are never any stairs (or slippery) of any kind encountered...


I don't care who the parents were for that dog or what 'testing' blah, blah, that they passed or not said about them. That dog that has never seen or been exposed to stairs before is very likely to be very shy about them the first few times they do it. Most especially if you start out their 'introduction' on some that are particularly smooth and slippery... :)

My newest girl Agatha is a darn good example of this in that it has taken me several months now to get her comfortable doing regular Doberman stuff on slippery surfaces. Will bet money that at her previous residence they had carpet or rugs everywhere inside the home and nothing even remotely slippery anywhere in the outside area for her. Her pawpads being silky smooth and soft were a giveaway I should have noticed sooner.


You and me could each raise a puppy from the same litter in our homes for 6 months and go take that test and just because of the differences in how we live and what our dogs experience every single day - those dogs are going to score differently on particular parts of those tests.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BG1
I'm going to share an experience I had today. Flint is being introduced to a bite pillow. He does not bite hard on it like he does with a tug toy made of jute or a toy rope. He just kinda puts his teeth on it and soaks it, no tugging at all. Granted this toy is still very new, but I started to wonder if he had enough drive to bite something that made him open his jaw wider than he is used to.

Today I took him to a public park, not a dog park, where we go every day and we play. He doesn't bother other people or other dogs and has only the ecollar on the whole time.

Some idiot teenagers had a black fluffy dog about 30lbs going nuts at the end of the leash. I put Flint in a heel and we were walking to the other end of the park to give them space. The teen holding the leash lost their grip on it and the dog charged Flint. There was tense sniffing, then as the boy picked his dog up it started to snap at Flint and lost its mind. Flint moved forward and his hackles went up, but I called him back into a heel with an ecollar stim.

We walked to the end of the park without incident. I didn't want to end it on a bad note, so I took out the ball on a rope and we tugged. I hear the teenagers cussing up a storm, and when I looked, that same dog was charging us again, dragging the leash behind it. I thought the kid was going to be able to catch it before it got to us, so again I told Flint to "down" so he wouldn't try to charge, just in case. Despite seeing a dog and person run at us, he obeyed.

The kid fumbled his dog and it got to Flint a second time. Flint showed his teeth and chest bumped the other dog. They snapped at the air, but no injuries. The boy grabbed his dog finally, and again I told Flint to down once I knew we were in the clear. Again, Flint obeyed.

At that point I walked with the kid, leaving Flint where he was, and I explained very calmly that an ecollar might help if the leash wasn't working out. I was trying to be calm and give them slack since they were teenagers and teens are empty headed as all hell.

When we were done talking, I told them have a nice day, returned to Flint (still in a down despite being 50 paces away or so) and put him in a heel. We went home.

I've never seen Flint show his teeth in a serious manner the entire time I've had him. I didn't think he had it in him to stand his ground like that.

Idk if this is insight at all or just a story. But I was certainly surprised to see him on the defensive when his typical behavior was avoiding conflict as much as possible until today.
 
That's an amazing story! Wonderful that he was a great ambassodor for the breed at the park! You are very patient to have talked with the young man kindly....I have not been so nice when young people lose the leash, and their dogs charge over to me & my dogs in the past :(
 
That dog that has never seen or been exposed to stairs before is very likely to be very shy about them the first few times they do it.
I'll say it again, since you insist that genetics is meaningless in behavior. It doesn't matter how you try to raise a wild wolf puppy as a dog, it will not act like a dog. No matter if a Border Collie never sees a sheep, it will always try to herd something. The entire world of breeding different breeds was about breeding certain genetics to "set" breed traits, whether it's appearance or behavior. Two shy dogs bred together will most likely have similarly shy offspring, BUT there are always outliers, if both parents had bold dogs as parents, the shake of the dice can produce a puppy that takes on more of a grandparents personality than its own parents. So always exceptions, but always starts with what the puppy is born with.

Dogs that are constantly very shy about a new exposure have a very different genetic code than one who is fearless about new exposures. Period.

You can train and encourage a shy dog to accept things by building self confidence and exposure to new things in positive manners, Not only is my dog not afraid of new things, she actively seeks out new or strange items in a forward manner.

A few months after Asha's 1st birthday we were hiking to find an old mine in the forest (abandoned mines are marked on Nat'l Forest maps). We did indeed find it. The old mine shaft hole was covered in expanded metal heavy enough that cattle or deer could not fall through. The shaft was about 20 feet down, with a pool of water at the bottom. Little pebbles and dirt falling through made echo-y splashes at the bottom as we went down the hill to look at it. I was still trying to investigate for safety and frankly didn't want to walk on it, but Asha just takes off across it as I was taking a photo. Never in her life had she seen or walked on expanded metal. It's not gentle on the feet either. She had no regard for the fact that she was suspended 20 feet over a pool of water. This type of natural curious & fearless investigation at a young age is inborn. You can't change my mind. ;)

P1310525.webpP1310527.webpP1310524.webp
 
I'm going to share an experience I had today.
Thank you for sharing Flints experience. Drive in bite training is a lot different than natural defense against another dog, so they really aren't related. Well related in that we use the love of grabbing a ball or tug into loving to bite a sleeve. But "attacking a human" is not something most domestic dogs dream about, we have to train that. Loose dogs, especially 2 or more, especially pit mixes, have the genetics to bite moving animals whether it's a cat, dog, or human. So there we are with genetics again. Dobermans can have a tendency toward dog aggression so when he saw that one coming up at him, it was instinctive to defend himself. Flint did what he should have and so did you. He showed good self control by not turning on the other dog and instead listened to you. As mentioned, it was nice of you to take the time to talk to the teenager and it's especially good that you've spent the time & effort it took to train Flint.
 
Dogs that are constantly very shy about a new exposure have a very different genetic code than one who is fearless about new exposures. Period.
You can train and encourage a shy dog to accept things by building self confidence and exposure to new things in positive manners, Not only is my dog not afraid of new things, she actively seeks out new or strange items in a forward manner.
I completely agree with you! Remy does the same as Asha. If there is something unfamiliar he goes to investigate, not shy away.

Since the other comment mentioned being shy around stairs when first exposed to them, I thought I’d share this video. Remy was 9 weeks old and to my knowledge it was his first time going up stairs (which is why I recorded this lol). No treats or toys involved either.
 
shy around stairs when first exposed to them
Same - we have 4 steps to the front porch and I brought Asha home at 10 weeks. She already didn't do anything slow so she took them two at a time and had several small wrecks, just to get up and do it again. :rolleyes: I was trying to keep her slow in danger zones but she had a mind of her own and no *'s to give. 🤷‍♀️
 
Same - we have 4 steps to the front porch and I brought Asha home at 10 weeks. She already didn't do anything slow so she took them two at a time and had several small wrecks, just to get up and do it again. :rolleyes: I was trying to keep her slow in danger zones but she had a mind of her own and no *'s to give. 🤷‍♀️
I wasn’t going to add these since I’m probably going too far off the original topic, but I couldn’t resist. 😆

He hoped up there so I was bent down to take a picture, then he launched himself towards me lol. IMG_2902.webpIMG_2903.webpSome things never change!IMG_2904.webp
The AirBnB I just stayed in had these stairs on the back deck. He thought it was fun to jump up to the deck without touching a single stair… meanwhile I’m thinking “please don’t break your legs” 😂IMG_2553.webp
 
The kid fumbled his dog and it got to Flint a second time. Flint showed his teeth and chest bumped the other dog. They snapped at the air, but no injuries. The boy grabbed his dog finally, and again I told Flint to down once I knew we were in the clear. Again, Flint obeyed.

If that had been ME - I would have punted the holy shit out of their dog the first time it ran up aggressively. If the owner can't control their dog - I for sure will and without hesitation! :)

If other dog owner wants to cry about their dog getting its ass kicked and call the cops my story is going to be that their dog was charging at ME and I was defending myself.

If they want to somehow come after me for damages to their dog they now have a police report that says they lost control of their dog and that it attacked me causing me to defend myself.

If I let one of the girls chomp on their fido so it can learn the lesson that needs learnt - My 'property' has just damaged their 'property' and if the cops get called that is what it will say in that report.


Many states will not allow you to use force to protect 'property' (like a dog you happen to own) from being attacked.
 

Back
Top