Another Scent Work Trial!

[Ravenbird]

Long but fun weekend doing AKC scent work! For the newbies here's a quick breakdown of trial divisions:
There are 4 elements: Interior, Exterior, Containers & Buried
There are 5 levels of expertise: Novice, Advanced, Excellent, Master & Detective
3 qualifying trials in each element gets a title, when you get all 4 elements at one level, you get an overall title for that level. Asha already had SWN title - completed all 4 elements at Novice level. We had a scattering of Q's in Advanced, plus had already moved up to Excellent in the Exterior element. So we were all over the board in entries and my poor brain had to sort out each levels rules - number of hides and time limits etc. Of course it was briefed as we went through, but still.
First day went well - 3 Q's of 4 trials, Second day only 1 Q of 4 trials, but I was really pleased with Asha's work ethics. Her mistakes were honest, she alerted close to the source but not AT the source. In buried there were containers of water with the odor taped 4" deep underwater, the containers have metal grids like a baking rack over them so dogs can't lick the water, but they can smell it. Asha alerted on a container next to the "hot" container. There was a breeze coming from the direction of the hot container, picking up the odor and when Asha reached the water-only container & caught the odor she thought she was right. We call this fringing - alerting before exploring further to see if it is the true source. Same thing in Exteriors and Interiors. I was still happy with her work ethics though. Third day, I worked on trying to slow her down (fast & furious is her new middle name) and it seemed to work better. Our only NQ was in Exterior which was in an open sided barn at the fairgrounds - and the wind was seriously blowing. Asha found two of 3 hides but worked up until the last minute and false alerted no where near the hide, so I think she could feel my pressure through the leash to "find something quick, we're about to run out of time" - even though I never said anything, I know our dogs can feel when we get anxious! Only one dog in that class found all three hides, so I didn't feel too bad.

Asha handled the indoor crating much better than last year - she recognized it from last year, and preferred to be in the crate than out. She had only a few growly moments, and she did explode at one dog - a Belgian Tervuren - every time she saw it. It was neutral to her, so I don't know why she got a hate-on for that particular dog. She would be about to exit the crate to me & roll her eyes over the area while I harnessed up for a class.



If anyone wants to know why most people don't train for a sit or down in Nose Work Sports, it's because of time. Green has become my favorite color ribbon - I'm so happy to get a Q! But 1st - 4th ribbons do give you a boost. A trained response like a down or a sit will take at least 1/2 to 1 second on a fast dog, a head swing is much faster. Less than 2 seconds was the difference in 1st - 4th in one of Ashas best runs:



I think one of the most amazing things about nose work sports it the variety of breeds and the fact that they are ALL really good at what they do. Everyone has their favorite breed and a huge variety of breeds were taking the blue ribbons! There were 2 1/2 Dobermans there besides Asha, a nice male, a rescue female and a rescue 1/2 Dobe, which was really a good looking dog. She said he had cattle dog and husky and something else but one parent was full Dobe. He had natural prick ears and was very good at everything he did.

Reckless ran 2 Detective Searches and NQ'd both. She missed one hide in each trial. These trials are really really tough, only one Q out of 10 entries on day one and 1 of 8 on day two. J was pleased with her - I didn't get to watch because I was two stretched with my 4 trials to get away.
We stayed a great motel with murals by a local artist. Happy campers, all of us were worn out by the end of each day!

 

[JanS]

Awesome job! I had no idea that buried was one of the elements.

OT but I'm surprised how many Terv's you have there. A friend near here recently had a litter but I didn't think they were that common.

 

[Rits]

Excellent work and what a fun achievement filled weekend! I'm so happy to hear that Asha is getting better and better with her reactivity. Even if she did explode at the Terv she sounds like she's getting a heck of a lot better all in all...! She just didn't want the Terv too comfortable with the idea of stealing her placement in the ribbons

 

[okaygreatthanks]

Congrats to you and Asha, way to go!! And this is a great recap of the weekend, thank you for all the detail you put into what each division/level of scent work entails, as well as the overall flow of the whole event. Really helps paint a picture of what’s involved for those of us who are very green (me!)

 

[Ravenbird]

thank you for all the detail you put into what each division/level of scent work entails, as well as the overall flow of the whole event.

I knew that you and a couple others keep asking about doing nose work so I thought it would be helpful to add some details about the elements and levels. Hope it gives you some incentive to play with it!

 

[Ravenbird]

I'm surprised how many Terv's you have there.

So many breeds show up for this game - it truly is not a thing for just working dogs. So non-sporting breeds do really well, fun to see a Papillon in Detective!!! There were 3 Tervs there and crated near us. All pretty nice dogs, totally neutral, not barking or staring, so I don't know what Ashas thing was all about.

 

[LifeofRubie]

Good Girls, Asha and Reckless!!

How do you work past the 'fringing?' If you ask Asha to eliminate the other containers by checking them, will she shut down? Like, Oh, you didn't believe me? Well f you, then!

 

[Ravenbird]

How do you work past the 'fringing?' If you ask Asha to eliminate the other containers by checking them, will she shut down? Like, Oh, you didn't believe me? Well f you, then!

LOL, yes, she's the type to give me the finger. To answer the question though, it's what I need to work on in training. In training, even if you can get someone else to set hides it's best to know where they are 100% of the time when you and/or your dog is new at this, and about 90% of the time once you start trialing. If I know for a fact that the dog is alerting 2 feet from the source in training, I ignore the alert and ask her to keep looking. It's always OK for her to leave that hide and come back from a different angle, but in training since I know where it is, I'll wait until she gets it right and then reward heavily. Trial? Nothing you can do about it. I even talked about this to a lady we were sitting next to after Asha came back from the NQ on the buried hide. Everyone agreed that if the dog had been right and I ignored the alert to take her around for another angle to be sure, that the dog could easily say "well, I guess that's not the right place" and NOT go back to it! That said, they also have to learn that you can't keep going back to the hide they already found, so I have a quick "good girl, you already got that one, find another" if Asha alerts at a hide she already found. I'll upload a video and share it here of that very thing.

The nice thing about SW Trials that I've been to, in Novice and sometimes Advanced, if you NQ the judges will tell you where the missed hide is so you can show your dog, let them alert and you can reward them for "finding it" before you leave the area. I was lucky to have 3 super judges and every Advanced that I missed, they told me where it was so I could take Asha there and leave on a winning note in the dogs mind. Excellent, that stuff stops, and most of the time it stops in Advanced, just depends on the judge.

 

[Ravenbird]

This is a video of Advanced Containers. Last year we did 3 trials of Adv. Containers and NQ'd every single one due to false alerts. It was fringing or guessing or both. So being the first trial of the first day I was so excited that she picked up the first hide in about 6 seconds. But then... very much not in her character, she absolutely couldn't find the 2nd hide. (Two hides in all Advanced trials). The judge called 30 second warning (you have two minutes to find two hides) and Asha finally started pushing around a tin box, then put her nose on the bag next to it, and did her Alert. So I called it and the judge says "Which one?" - omg, I knew they could ask that, but it's never happened to me - I pointed at the bag (now I'M the one guessing!) and it was a YES from the judge. I was so excited to get my Q I almost forgot to say "Finish", and I did a little squeee and happy dance. To point out for @LifeofRubie - I don't think you can hear me on the video, but when Asha stops to alert me on the hot box she already got paid for, I just say quietly, good girl, find another. She doesn't usually look at a paid item twice, but I think the circle pattern of items might have contributed to this.

My time was 1:52:59, so just 7 seconds under the 2 minute allowance, placed me 11th of the Q's. Our other two container trials were more in tune with her fast & furious phase:

 

[okaygreatthanks]

You two are a rockstar team, this is so fun to watch! For that last item (the bag), I had to watch the video a couple times because Asha circled and pawed at the box next to it for a beat and I thought she might be alerting on that. Shows how much trust and communication you two have that you called it correctly once she looked at you after sniffing the bag!

I don’t want to hijack your thread, but I’m wondering if you have any suggestions for how to train out a pawing alert for scent work like this/essential oils?

When we’re working with essential oils, I’ve been trying to say “watch me” when he paws and then saying “yes” and rewarding the minute he looks at me (rather than rewarding for pawing). But I do worry about messing up Remy’s Barn Hunt pawing alert…I hope he will be able to make a distinction for alerts between the scents/activities!

 

[Rits]

I don’t want to hijack your thread, but I’m wondering if you have any suggestions for how to train out a pawing alert for scent work like this/essential oils?

When we’re working with essential oils, I’ve been trying to say “watch me” when he paws and then saying “yes” and rewarding the minute he looks at me (rather than rewarding for pawing).

We haven't started our nosework trialing (too much things to do plus saving for later) but we have taken a few classes. I'm sure @Ravenbird will have her own input with her own experiences that I look forward to hearing! Heres what I learned... I wouldn't give him any commands. Really he should be working on his own. If you ask them to start doing things obedience related, then their focus turns to you. You want him to seek out the source in order to earn reward.

Ripley was a box SMASHER. Obviously, this is a no no in trial. But in training ...whatever. The key was to wait her out until she offered an acceptable behavior. Obviously only after she's already been heavily rewarded and trained for source weeks prior so that waiting her out wouldn't discourage her to leave. In the beginning, we didn't discourage the box smashing at all because we didn't want to squash the incredible drive she had! The capturing a better tell would come later, but only if she offered it.

I had to get creative and used a suet cake feeder so she couldn't smash the source with those dobe feet (apparently box smashing is VERY common with nosework dobes). "Box" didnt smash, no self gratification. I'd have only the source in the tin, in the suet feeder with nothing else out. She would put her nose to source and the split moment she did, before the paw ever got a chance to lift, I marked "YES!" reward over source. Rinse and repeat over and over. Then next training session, she'd do the same but I'd wait 1 second longer. Mark, reward. She learned to put her nose over, point, and freeze over source because it was very rewarding.

Our instructor would have us always continuously move our feet while our dogs were working. He didn't want them to learn that us stopping = hey a treat is coming so the dogs wouldn't start false alerting because they are now paying attention to us and want that treat! So the dogs got to the point/advanced enough in their training they would point out source, and we'd mark then continue to walk around them on the end of their leash while marking yes, go back and reward over source, walk around, yes, reward, walk around, yes, reward for holding onto source. Then we would give them a release word that that hide is no longer active, to keep searching for the next one and reward for breaking off. This helped our dogs to really hold themselves to source, no matter what was going on around them. They wouldn't be cueing off our body language. If they walk away, this game is over. No more reward for walking away and going back!

There were some strict obedience people there that tried to tell their dogs how to work and I get it, bad habit with obedience. Of course being great obedience dogs, these dogs were CONSTANTLY looking to their handlers after sniffing every box to see their handler's reactions. It became a "this?...how about this? this one?" So that is why our instructor greatly encouraged us to be much more hands off for nosework. Let our dogs work independently of us.. they don't need us, they have the nose, lol! Capture for staying on source and the only other command given besides "go search" was to break off, that hide is dead, and search for more!

But I do worry about messing up Remy’s Barn Hunt pawing alert…I hope he will be able to make a distinction for alerts between the scents/activities!

I totally think he can give two different tells for different scents! The smell of rat pawing is rewarded. The smell of birch, anise etc. pawing is NOT rewarded but head turn or nose freeze over source is.

 

[Ravenbird]

I don’t want to hijack your thread, but I’m wondering if you have any suggestions for how to train out a pawing alert for scent work like this/essential oils?

LOL, I love to talk NW, I put posts up hoping to get conversation about it!

Basically @Rits made the same suggestions I would. Just remember all dogs are different. Looking back though, Asha was a box smasher too - she got extremely excited and Dobes are known to use their feet a lot for everything. She pounces on a ball or toy the same way. I just wouldn't reward until she stopped and looked at me. As with ALL training, when you run into a problem, go back to basics. In this case I went back to pairing odor with a treat in an OPEN box (the cold boxes all were open too, so the look was the same). When she found the hot box the treat was right there and while she grabbed the treat I'd rush over and drop 5 more in the box one at the time, so she learned to wait at the box, look at me, watch the treat drop in and get it. 5 treats one at the time is like a jackpot. 5 treats in the box is not. The reward HAS to come from you. Then when using feet subsides (there should be no reason to use feet because nothing is being withheld, repeat with half open lid, then move on to closed lids again.

I wouldn't give him any commands. Really he should be working on his own. If you ask them to start doing things obedience related, then their focus turns to you.

100%!!!

Drug/Bomb/SAR dogs have a trained response for several reasons, but this is sport. I see a few trained response dogs in trials and they are usually very very good, but not fast, time-wise. Some are also very fast, so it's not like it can't be done, but I wouldn't choose it for NW Sports. Asha learned to down on a human scent article but she doesn't down on EO odors, so I don't see any problem at all with barn hunt pawing. It's like baseball and basketball - they learn it's a game but different way of playing it to win.

I had to watch the video a couple times because Asha circled and pawed at the box next to it for a beat and I thought she might be alerting on that. Shows how much trust and communication you two have that you called it correctly once she looked at you after sniffing the bag!

Yes, smelling the tin box and pushing it showed me she was In Odor (smelling EO) and trying to find the exact source, then pinpointed it in the bag and whipped her head up. This is why you never take your eyes off your dog. You see @obbanner preach this all the time in his Barn Hunt thread, same for EO.

If you watch the video again, you will see Asha on the very first pass take a deep nose on that hot bag, but kept moving. I took a mental note of that, but will never stop the dog to "make" them look. When she did finally find it, she took a wide swing out to open area, probably catching a cone of odor and followed it back aiming her at the tin box. Pushing that around is not an alert, it's investigation. When her nose hits the bag is when her lightbulb came on and the head came up! That's the alert I look for! Also, look at the difference between Ashas stillness while sniffing the toy - that small thing inside the circle of containers is a used stuffy toy with other dog smell on it - Distractions are introduced starting in Advanced level! Her stillness while sniffing is what I call crittering, and a totally different look than hunting/working the odor puzzle. I let her look and smell but then say leave it if she spend too much time/interest in it. There will never be a hide on a distraction in trial!

Two training hints:
*Since I don't have a class or instructor I set up a tripod and video tons of our training to review. Not just nose work, but everything! It has become my biggest learning source to watch my dog (and me) do things that I'd never see while doing it. Your dog will have differences and his own way of responses and they will change and evolve as you go further in training. Nose work motto: Know and Trust your dog!
*I also ALWAYS use a harness for NW, and never ever allow her to pee with it on. Take her to potty with only a collar on, put the harness on and go to work. It's a signal. Potty on the course is instant NQ, so don't wait until you're doing exteriors before removing your NW harness (or whatever equipment you choose) to take your dog to potty before or after working hides!

Have fun and feel free to ask questions & post pictures and videos here!

 

[okaygreatthanks]

I wouldn't give him any commands. Really he should be working on his own. If you ask them to start doing things obedience related, then their focus turns to you. You want him to seek out the source in order to earn reward.

There were some strict obedience people there that tried to tell their dogs how to work and I get it, bad habit with obedience. Of course being great obedience dogs, these dogs were CONSTANTLY looking to their handlers after sniffing every box to see their handler's reactions. It became a "this?...how about this? this one?" So that is why our instructor greatly encouraged us to be much more hands off for nosework.

This is exactly what our Barn Hunt instructor always says – she even chided me last week for saying "seek" (his search word) and told me to only speak when calling a rat and giving praise for now. It's so instinctive for me to give obedience commands since I'm used to doing it at home. It's me who needs training when it comes to nosework.

I had to get creative and used a suet cake feeder so she couldn't smash the source with those dobe feet (apparently box smashing is VERY common with nosework dobes). "Box" didnt smash, no self gratification. I'd have only the source in the tin, in the suet feeder with nothing else out. She would put her nose to source and the split moment she did, before the paw ever got a chance to lift, I marked "YES!" reward over source. Rinse and repeat over and over. Then next training session, she'd do the same but I'd wait 1 second longer. Mark, reward. She learned to put her nose over, point, and freeze over source because it was very rewarding.

Great idea! I've been using little traffic cones to hide his scent vessels under since I have them around for rally training, and he easily slaps the cones over. I'll start marking and rewarding when he puts his nose to it, before he smacks it. It is pretty adorable how they all really lead with their paws though.

Our instructor would have us always continuously move our feet while our dogs were working. He didn't want them to learn that us stopping = hey a treat is coming so the dogs wouldn't start false alerting because they are now paying attention to us and want that treat! So the dogs got to the point/advanced enough in their training they would point out source, and we'd mark then continue to walk around them on the end of their leash while marking yes, go back and reward over source, walk around, yes, reward, walk around, yes, reward for holding onto source. Then we would give them a release word that that hide is no longer active, to keep searching for the next one and reward for breaking off. This helped our dogs to really hold themselves to source, no matter what was going on around them. They wouldn't be cueing off our body language. If they walk away, this game is over. No more reward for walking away and going back!

Another great point; they're so intuitive!

LOL, I love to talk NW, I put posts up hoping to get conversation about it!

Aww good, because I need all the advice I can get!

As with ALL training, when you run into a problem, go back to basics. In this case I went back to pairing odor with a treat in an OPEN box (the cold boxes all were open too, so the look was the same). When she found the hot box the treat was right there and while she grabbed the treat I'd rush over and drop 5 more in the box one at the time, so she learned to wait at the box, look at me, watch the treat drop in and get it. 5 treats one at the time is like a jackpot. 5 treats in the box is not. The reward HAS to come from you. Then when using feet subsides (there should be no reason to use feet because nothing is being withheld, repeat with half open lid, then move on to closed lids again.

Great suggestion! I've been learning that "back to basics" is the way, especially with a teenager. I think I'll try this method out with our scent vessels for now, without a box so there's less to slap at/I'm not introducing a new distraction just yet, then move to the open box and so on.

Yes, smelling the tin box and pushing it showed me she was In Odor (smelling EO) and trying to find the exact source, then pinpointed it in the bag and whipped her head up. This is why you never take your eyes off your dog

If you watch the video again, you will see Asha on the very first pass take a deep nose on that hot bag, but kept moving. I took a mental note of that, but will never stop the dog to "make" them look. When she did finally find it, she took a wide swing out to open area, probably catching a cone of odor and followed it back aiming her at the tin box. Pushing that around is not an alert, it's investigation. When her nose hits the bag is when her lightbulb came on and the head came up! That's the alert I look for! Also, look at the difference between Ashas stillness while sniffing the toy - that small thing inside the circle of containers is a used stuffy toy with other dog smell on it - Distractions are introduced starting in Advanced level! Her stillness while sniffing is what I call crittering, and a totally different look than hunting/working the odor puzzle. I let her look and smell but then say leave it if she spend too much time/interest in it. There will never be a hide on a distraction in trial!

This is so insightful – I've noticed these behaviors with Remy in Barn Hunt when he's investigating the litter tubes, or bales of hay that another dog has marked. I'm slowly sorting out all these subtleties so that I don't make false calls on litter tubes. Doing other nosework exercises really helps me catalog his specific tells, and it's interesting to see how similar Asha's are!

Two training hints:
*Since I don't have a class or instructor I set up a tripod and video tons of our training to review. Not just nose work, but everything! It has become my biggest learning source to watch my dog (and me) do things that I'd never see while doing it. Your dog will have differences and his own way of responses and they will change and evolve as you go further in training. Nose work motto: Know and Trust your dog!

Yes! I do this for rally training so we can work on our positioning, and I can watch my footwork because I'm a jitterbug. I'll have to start taking videos for nosework too.

*I also ALWAYS use a harness for NW, and never ever allow her to pee with it on. Take her to potty with only a collar on, put the harness on and go to work. It's a signal. Potty on the course is instant NQ, so don't wait until you're doing exteriors before removing your NW harness (or whatever equipment you choose) to take your dog to potty before or after working hides!

Ooh, I love this idea! I'm going to do this for Barn Hunt too.

Thank you both SO much!!!

 

[Ravenbird]

It's me who needs training

ME too!!!

Ooh, I love this idea! I'm going to do this for Barn Hunt too.

Remember Barn Hunt is run naked so not sure what your signal-equipment will be?

Dogs are very collar savvy, I try to use a different one for different venues - the fur saver for Obedience/IGP work and the harness for NW and when I was doing SAR (for trial, not for real) I used a flat collar for searches. Since Barn Hunt is naked, he will learn that that is a key. Actually that search is so unique with the bales of straw and smell of rats, he won't have any trouble with that. Except for AKC venues, I used a prong to potty because that's never going to be on in any trial. AKC trials they are not allowed even to go potty. They are so smart tho, I think once you get through a year or two of training and trialing they just know better, but I still try to make it distinct, especially when we train in town at the park or something. Do the work, back to the car, harness off, prong on, then out of the car to go pee. Never straight from work to the pee area. Even in Obedience/Rally training you can still go back to the car, to add or subtract a collar, then go to the potty area. I may be over thinking it, but dogs that go on the working course ruin it for all the dogs following and I really don't ever want it to be my fault!

 

[okaygreatthanks]

Remember Barn Hunt is run naked so not sure what your signal-equipment will be?

Ah, I meant for clinics – that was confusing! Since he does have to run naked in the trial, it probably doesn't make sense to use a harness in clinics. I didn't think that through.

 

[Ravenbird]

Great fun this weekend in Alamogordo NM at a 3-day Scent Work Trial and SO proud of Asha! 12 trials, 8 Qs, finishing up all the elements to finish our over-all title in Excellent level! Icing on the cake included a 1st, a 2nd, two 3rds and two 4th places, and 2 Qs in Master Level

We are officially exhausted but in a good way. Details and tidbits may follow, but here's the photo of our results. I have a couple of videos I can put on Youtube to share here, but that'll have to be another day.

 

[JanS]

I'm so happy for you!

 

[MyBuddy]

Wow! Congrats!!!

 

[Two Dobes]

Big congrats!!! Asha looks proud of herself I love the photo of her laying across your lap....my favorite

 

[remy]

Amazing job! Congratulations!!