Need help - is she getting aggressive?

[MeadowCat]

Hi everyone,

I need some advice. If I need to, I will call my trainer in, but as it is $100 an hour, I want to ask here first

The last couple of times I've taken Shanoa to the dog park, she's displayed some behavior toward smaller dogs that is worrying me a little. She basically won't leave them alone, and as the play progresses, the teeth and nipping starts. She'll get really vocal, and she never does that with dogs her size (at least at the park). I'm a little worried, and not sure what to do. She won't leave them alone even when they retreat to their owner, or when I try to call her off.

I don't really know what's going on here. Obviously with a doberman, I worry about the reaction of other owners, especially owners of small dogs. I really don't think she's trying to hurt them, but then again, I'm not 100% sure. She's just a year old (this Saturday, actually), and I know some dominance issues can come out as they mature. I did actually leave the park early the other day, because an owner of a small dog was doing some fairly silly things that were aggravating the problem. But I knew that they were freaking out and it would just make Shanoa look bad, so I left.

Any thoughts here? I appreciate any ideas. Shanoa's never, ever displayed aggression towards other dogs, and used to go to daycare five days a week. I really need to nip this in the bud. I know I need to work on off-leash recall at the dog park, because if I can call her off that'll help. But that's not the only part of the problem. Help!

MeadowCat

 

[Apollo]

sounds very familiar, i think her hormons kicking in and she becomes a terrible teen now

she probably wanna play, dobestyle, little dogs don't understand that language and apollo is very vocal too, when he wanna play and pushes with his nose or bibbles, to the game started.

 

[Ingrid H]

I'm not a fan of dog parks to begin with because there are so many stupid dog owners in the world. If we had a dog park in my area, i would stay away from it because I know there are stupid people around here.

As for the smaller dog issue, does Shanoa know any little dogs outside the dog park? It sounds like she just wants to play with the little dogs like a toy.

 

[MeadowCat]

She does actually know little dogs. One of her favorite friends is a pug, but we don't see him super often and we only see him at his house.

I know there are tons of stupid owners, which is why I left when the other owners were freaking out. They were doing really dumb things like calling the dog to them in the middle of play, causing Shanoa to chase it right to them, and then they'd pick it up and hold it high above her close to them. Which immediately turned it into a prize, changed the dynamic by elevating it to alpha status, all sorts of things. I actually said something to them, which I usually wouldn't do. But they of course didn't understand dog behavior, and I knew that if I let Shanoa continue to play they'd think that she was attacking the dog.

So what do I do about this? We already had the teenager time when she stopped responding to commands, etc. She was spayed at 6 months, too, so I'm not sure what the hormone situation is.

I understand that dumb or uninformed owners can make the dog park a bad experience. On the other hand, there is no exercise I can give her that is as good as her running full out at top speed for an hour. Which is what she does there; she loves to run and chase and be chased. And it's not every little dog that she does this to, just some of them. So...what do I do?

MC

 

[Ingrid H]

How old is Shanoa? If memory serves me at all, she's almost a year old. You could start taking her biking now. I used to be a bicycle racer, but now i just have a girl 10 speed that i take Ladybug out with. The bike was $15 and the biking is easy for me.

 

[MeadowCat]

I'm definitely interested in biking with her, but it'll have to wait. We live in MN and I'm not riding my bike in the winter

And, I really don't want to give up going to the dog park. More than that, I don't want to have to limit her interaction with small dogs in other situations either. So I need to address this, but I don't know how.

MC

 

[hrd2gt]

What do you do to correct her??

Karma is the biggest cupcake out there... and she loves to play with lil dogs, and I know I could trust her not to hurt a fly, but she is a big dog... and plays rough... but less with lil dogs, she mainly likes to stand over them... then pin them down by laying on them... or chew on their neck!! Which I know she isnt hurting them but it LOOKS SOOOOOO BAD for a dobie!!

If she gets to carried away, I usually go grab her by the collar and pull her away with a good stern "SETTLE DOWN" usually the owners are like, ohhh its ok... dont worry, but I am not that nice. I dont want her to play like that so I nip it in the bud.

On the flip side... LOL... Karma has really settled down since Fate has gotten here, so when we go to the park, and Fate gets carried away, Karma will go and grab her by the collar and pull her away. Nice.......

 

[MyBuddy]

On the flip side... LOL... Karma has really settled down since Fate has gotten here, so when we go to the park, and Fate gets carried away, Karma will go and grab her by the collar and pull her away. Nice.......

Wow! That's ....wow....lol....pretty cool actually.

I really don't know what I would do MC, I have never been to a dog park except one time with my mom and her tiny toy poodle...and no one was there! I was actually a bit afraid that someone would be there cause I didn't know what to expect. I really don't know how people go to those things, I mean, a lot of dogs....loose...? Yikes, to me I can see things getting out of hand quickly. And off leash it's hard to control. How about one of those short, one foot leads on her so you can grab and correct? Although other dogs might grab it too. I don't know, it seems you need to correct her and settle her down every once in a while. Similar to what hrd said.

 

[MLR]

I take mine to a children's playground all the time and let them run off leash. It's a very important part of their socialization. I also take them to events downtown where there are tons of people and sometimes other dogs; on leash of course. Isolation is not a good thing for dobermans. This only makes them fearful of strangers and possibly more protective than they need to be in my opinion. As for the little dog thing, I would just keep on her and call her back if she gets too dobe style carried away. We were at the playground one time and my two guys were running loose and there was a chihuahua and it's owners actually asked if I minded if they let their's off leash, too. At first my guys were all over the little guy. But after a while they settled down with a game of chase the tiny tot around the picnic table in circles. Then all of a sudden the roles got reversed and the chihuahua turned around and started chasing my guys around in circles. It was hysterical. I guess it really does depend on the attitude of the other dog owner, too. This couple was fine with all the rough play and said they had a bigger dog at home so their little guy was used to it and not intimidated by the size at all. I can see where this would be a problem if the little dog's owner was afraid of dobes to begin with. That's why I work very hard to dispel the myth of the dangerous attacking dobe whenever I have mine out in public.

Last night I took my guys to our downtown Christmas parade. There were hundreds of people, children and other dogs at this event. I must have been stopped at least five times by people wanting to take our picture; I had them dressed in red Christmas sweatshirts with Christmas designs on them. I also was approached by every other person with kids in tow asking if it was alright to pet my guys as we walked down both sides of the street before the parade started to get some of their energy out of them. I'm always happy to oblige. My guys love all the attention and always sit for pets from strangers. They love children period and lick them to pieces which in turn delights the kids. And all the noise and excitement of the crowd is good mental exercise for them. By the time were were on our return trip down the opposite side of the street from where we started our walk they were both following my commands of 'left turn, right turn' as we wove in and out of the crowded sidewalk. They were unphased by it all.

So my advice would be to keep going to the dog park. After the novelty wears off she'll get the hang of it.

 

[MeadowCat]

I think what worries me is that we've been going to the dog park since we've had her, and she also went to daycare for several months. The thing is, she's never done this before, and she's played with tons of little dogs. So what's changing?

Am I overreacting to it?

MC

 

[Panama]

I think what worries me is that we've been going to the dog park since we've had her, and she also went to daycare for several months. The thing is, she's never done this before, and she's played with tons of little dogs. So what's changing?

Am I overreacting to it?

MC

She's grown a lot is what the difference is.

We don't have any dog parks in my immediate area, but parks that I have been to, usually have different sections for size differences.

And you are correct in saying that when the people called their little dog, picked it up and held it high above your dog, it became more of a prize than play. Like dragging a tug rope in front of them just fast enough they can't get it then holding it up in the air... of course they're going to try to get it!!

I would work on "recall" (making her come when called), so you are in control of your dog at all times and she will break off from play to come to you.

 

[dobebug]

She does actually know little dogs. One of her favorite friends is a pug, but we don't see him super often and we only see him at his house.

I know there are tons of stupid owners, which is why I left when the other owners were freaking out. They were doing really dumb things like calling the dog to them in the middle of play, causing Shanoa to chase it right to them, and then they'd pick it up and hold it high above her close to them. Which immediately turned it into a prize, changed the dynamic by elevating it to alpha status, all sorts of things. I actually said something to them, which I usually wouldn't do. But they of course didn't understand dog behavior, and I knew that if I let Shanoa continue to play they'd think that she was attacking the dog.

MeadowCat,

I'm another one who has no love for dog parks. Along with dumb owners there are dog behaviors that are likely to come back to bite you in the butt eventually.

A small dog at home in limited area, playing with a big dog is a different situation than a small dog in a big area trying to evade a big dog who is playing too vigorously with the little dog.

You might want to think again about what dumb owners do. You, presently, have a dog who does not have a reliable recall and who plays too rough with small dogs. It's not all that dumb for the owner of the small dog to call the dog to them to get it out of harms way--nor is it so dumb for them to pick the small dog up to get it out of reach of the larger dog.

I have one dog who is very good with very young puppies and about the time they reach four months or so starts to play with them as if they were adults--I can not let him play with bigger puppies he's too rough for them. I don't let him play with bigger puppies--and I can call him off--his recall is very good.

I don't care how dumb you think the behavior of other owners is if there is a Doberman in the midst of any sort of problem--no matter what the problem is you can bet that it'll be the Doberman who is to blame in the eyes of most bystanders.

So what do I do about this? We already had the teenager time when she stopped responding to commands, etc. She was spayed at 6 months, too, so I'm not sure what the hormone situation is.

The first thing I'd do is stop taking her to the park if there is even one small dog in it. I've gotten up very early in the morning to take dogs to parks to make sure that there is no one else there. If you can't do that--if this dog park always has dogs in it stop going. You are looking at a disaster waiting to happen. If you can't recall her immediately when she is being too rough with small dogs she shouldn't be in a position to be playing with them.

I understand that dumb or uninformed owners can make the dog park a bad experience. On the other hand, there is no exercise I can give her that is as good as her running full out at top speed for an hour. Which is what she does there; she loves to run and chase and be chased. And it's not every little dog that she does this to, just some of them. So...what do I do?

Bike her. Take her very early or very late when there are less likely to be small dogs running in the park. Find a fenced area in a park (softball fields are often fenced) and teach her to retrieve tennis balls. Or find a tennis court that is not in use early in the morning and throw tennis balls for her there. Find someone who has a dog her size that will play with her in your yard or theirs. Do a lot more training with her. Mental exercise is often more exhausting that physical exercise. But until you have control of her recall you shouldn't be going where she has a possibility of damaging someone else's small dog.

If you can't stop her behavior you are the one in the wrong--and it doesn't make much difference whether she doesn't do it to all small dogs or not--even if she only does it to some small dogs there is a risk that she may quite accidentally kill one--it happens.

Good luck in trying to find another way to get the sort of exercise you'd like her to have but I'd drop the dog park at this time. And even though I agree that you should continue to socialize her you can do all of that on leash so that everyone remains safe.

Look for a training class that has lots of small dogs in it--so that they remain safe and she starts to learn to have some control over what is probably prey/play drive.

 

[MeadowCat]

I totally agree that I need to work on recall with her. She has extremely good recall and commands everywhere except the dog park, and we're working on that. And I'm also well aware that the Doberman is always at fault in the eyes of everyone else, because of the breed reputation.

On the other hand, I have to disagree that I shouldn't let her play with small dogs. That's only going to make the problem worse, because she won't have interactions with them. I'm going to work hard on recalls and the dog park, and I know she isn't going to hurt the other dog. Additionally, I think I may have her wear the e-collar at the park so that I can provide an immediate correction if she escalates the play to a level that I don't like. I think we can work towards appropriate play levels; she's very smart and she responds very well to all of her training. She has her CGC and she's gone through Advanced Obedience with our trainers. I've only noticed this change since we had the foster doberman recently, and maybe it's just that she got to play pretty hard with her and she's not checking herself as much anymore because of that.

Again, biking with her at this point isn't practical, as winter is starting and it's difficult to bike in the winter in MN. It's not just the exercise aspect of the park I like. She also gets a long walk every day (at least a few miles), and we play in the yard, too. I like the park because *she* likes the park. She really loves being with other dogs, and the running there is like nothing else. If we go there and no one else is there she just sits down by me and doesn't do anything

Any other suggestions for working on the training aspects of this? I want her to have appropriate interactions and be able to play with all the other dogs.

MC

 

[MyBuddy]

I'm another one who has no love for dog parks. Along with dumb owners there are dog behaviors that are likely to come back to bite you in the butt eventually.

A small dog at home in limited area, playing with a big dog is a different situation than a small dog in a big area trying to evade a big dog who is playing too vigorously with the little dog.

I believe this too. Any dog can act differently in a dog park situation. When I had my first Dobe I didn't even know dog parks existed (maybe they didn't!lol). When I did, I just never had any use for them. I realize it's a great place to let your dog run and exercise and also to socialize with other dogs, but I did that on my own. There are many ways to socialize a dog and the exercise was walking him, biking with him, playing fetch or simply being outside with me. I knew going in that getting a large dog I would be getting a bit of exercise myself! LOL And with a dog park, my dog may be very well trained, but I always wondered about the other dogs there? People seem to come there to 'coffee clutch' and not watch what their dog is doing.

I'm sorry, MC, that doesn't help you much with suggestions! I don't really know what else to do besides what Dobebug said. I'd want a leash on her but that doesn't help if you are wanting her to run around a little. Anyone else want to chime in here?

 

[MeadowCat]

Like I said, I may end up calling in our trainer for a consultation. In the meantime, right now my plan is two fold. First, try to go to the park when there are no other dogs there and work on recall. She needs to understand that commands still apply while we are there, and the best way to do that is to work on them there As our trainer says, dogs don't generalize well, so you need to repeat the commands in as many situations as possible, so they understand the command always applies, not just in your living room or the training location.

Second, I think I'm going to have her wear her e-collar while there if there are smaller dogs. I can then give her an immediate correction if she does anything I don't like.

She has lots of dog friends at the dog park. For the most part, it's the same people and the same dogs. The real problem is people who don't understand dog behavior AT ALL who come there. 99% of those dogs are completely untrained, and tons of them are small dogs who are treated liked babies. I've had people ask me before they even entered if my dog would eat their dog. Now, really, would you bring a dog to the park if it was actively trying to hurt other dogs? Of course not. People who know nothing about dogs can be a real problem. When I see those type of people there I do typically leave, just because I know a ton of issues can come up. I know another dog owner who has a pittie who does the same, not because of anything his dog does but just because of the ignorance of others. I also have to say that a good portion of those small dogs have some serious aggression issues, but because they are small their owners think it's "cute" and they never do anything about it.

It may come down to not going to the park if there are certain dogs/owners there. I really hope not. For the most part it's a good group of people who enjoy letting their dogs play together. The dogs have a blast, the people enjoy talking, and it's a good experience. I would hate for Shanoa to lose that socialization outlet.

MC

 

[Apollo]

Like I said, I may end up calling in our trainer for a consultation. In the meantime, right now my plan is two fold. First, try to go to the park when there are no other dogs there and work on recall. She needs to understand that commands still apply while we are there, and the best way to do that is to work on them there As our trainer says, dogs don't generalize well, so you need to repeat the commands in as many situations as possible, so they understand the command always applies, not just in your living room or the training location.

Second, I think I'm going to have her wear her e-collar while there if there are smaller dogs. I can then give her an immediate correction if she does anything I don't like.

She has lots of dog friends at the dog park. For the most part, it's the same people and the same dogs. The real problem is people who don't understand dog behavior AT ALL who come there. 99% of those dogs are completely untrained, and tons of them are small dogs who are treated liked babies. I've had people ask me before they even entered if my dog would eat their dog. Now, really, would you bring a dog to the park if it was actively trying to hurt other dogs? Of course not. People who know nothing about dogs can be a real problem. When I see those type of people there I do typically leave, just because I know a ton of issues can come up. I know another dog owner who has a pittie who does the same, not because of anything his dog does but just because of the ignorance of others. I also have to say that a good portion of those small dogs have some serious aggression issues, but because they are small their owners think it's "cute" and they never do anything about it.

It may come down to not going to the park if there are certain dogs/owners there. I really hope not. For the most part it's a good group of people who enjoy letting their dogs play together. The dogs have a blast, the people enjoy talking, and it's a good experience. I would hate for Shanoa to lose that socialization outlet.

MC

i really feel you on this MC, thats why i avoid lately the dogpark, because Apollo get a bit pushy right now and i don't want that something happens.so i wait til he is neuter and hope it will get better, after that

about the little dogs, you are so right, my stepdaughter has one of those, not listen napoleon comples little yappers and she is the one, who gets the boy's started, we come to the park, she starts barking and yapping at every dog what might just looks at her, my stepdaughter don't stop her and Joe is babishing her, so not really a help and the boy's think, they might have to protect her. i do not like that all and i'm not happy when she comes with us. so i made the decision, not to go to the park right now. the little dog isn't listen at all, not trained at all and just a spoiled little brat, drives me crazy
same szenario here in the house, both boy's are taking a nap on the floor, she on the top of the sofa, starts barking at nothing and gets the boy's going<_<
but sure since she is so little its all good, yeah right and like i said, Joe isn't a big help with it and if you say something, he don't listens anyway, hey he is a man LMAO
so no more park for the boy's right now, i just take them for walks, only i can do right now.

 

[MyBuddy]

Like I said, I may end up calling in our trainer for a consultation. In the meantime, right now my plan is two fold. First, try to go to the park when there are no other dogs there and work on recall. She needs to understand that commands still apply while we are there, and the best way to do that is to work on them there As our trainer says, dogs don't generalize well, so you need to repeat the commands in as many situations as possible, so they understand the command always applies, not just in your living room or the training location.

Second, I think I'm going to have her wear her e-collar while there if there are smaller dogs. I can then give her an immediate correction if she does anything I don't like.

She has lots of dog friends at the dog park. For the most part, it's the same people and the same dogs. The real problem is people who don't understand dog behavior AT ALL who come there. 99% of those dogs are completely untrained, and tons of them are small dogs who are treated liked babies. I've had people ask me before they even entered if my dog would eat their dog. Now, really, would you bring a dog to the park if it was actively trying to hurt other dogs? Of course not. People who know nothing about dogs can be a real problem. When I see those type of people there I do typically leave, just because I know a ton of issues can come up. I know another dog owner who has a pittie who does the same, not because of anything his dog does but just because of the ignorance of others. I also have to say that a good portion of those small dogs have some serious aggression issues, but because they are small their owners think it's "cute" and they never do anything about it.

It may come down to not going to the park if there are certain dogs/owners there. I really hope not. For the most part it's a good group of people who enjoy letting their dogs play together. The dogs have a blast, the people enjoy talking, and it's a good experience. I would hate for Shanoa to lose that socialization outlet.
MC

Great post, MC! You hit it all on the head for me.

 

[lady Dobie]

i think everyone offered great advise here.. i cannot think of anything to add.. except that at all costs i would be very careful with her at the park from now on.. just because that is definitly a sign that she has changed.. due to hormones or just that day that piticuliar dog could have triggered the emotion.. but i can suggest a super long leash.. i have one that is just fantastic.. about 15 ft long.. and it gives them plenty of room to feel free with out being free until you can be positive about what is setting her off at the park.. and until her return call is perfected..to the point where she is trusted.. she is just a year old.. they still have puppy mind..

 

[MLR]

I keep an e-collar on my two guys at all times when we're out and about Meadowcat; especially when they're off leash. That's the only way I can be sure of them. I don't have to use it much at all at this stage of the game. But it's on them just the same. Other than that I wouldn't worry about what other dogs are doing. I don't think this is going to turn into something more. It's probably just a reaction to how the other dogs is behaving. Mine like every dog they've ever met except pit bulls, for some reason (sorry Tye). So long as your watchful and consistent she'll be fine. It just takes time for them to know their limits with you. What they can and cannot do. I've been doing this with my two for five years and Saturday night was a culmination of all that practice. They were practically perfect. And the kicker is Herc was doing it on the honor system because I found out half way down the first side of the street where the parade was that the battery was dead in the clicker for his e-collar. I was never so proud of him. Just keep dong what you're doing and it will all fall into place. And don't you panic. I think either on or off leash they pick up on our nervousness and react as if there's something to be afraid of or on the alert about. Just take deep breaths and relax, come across calm and self assured and she will be fine.

 

[MeadowCat]

We actually had a great night at the dog park tonight. We were there about an hour and a half. I kept her e-collar on the whole time. We worked on recalls and did some obedience while we were there, both to improve recall and also to put her in the obedience mindset. I used the e-collar a few times (the "nick") to remind her that "come" means "come", even if we're at the park. I backed it up with really, really good rewards every single time she came when called (beef lung is an amazing treat). It only took a couple nicks, and it went great. She was coming right away when called, even while playing. I would then immediately release her back to play, so it was a positive thing every time she came to me.

She did start to get a little vocal and nippy with a dog, so I gave her a nick exactly when the other dog turned and showed some teeth, so I think she thought it was coming from the dog! It nipped it right in the bud. She played very nice the whole time. There was actually a really good test - a couple of small, really yippy dogs came in and just barked and barked and barked. They started quite a group up, got that whole group really excited with lots of barking and noise. Shanoa got interested, started to go over, and I gave her a "leave it" and she walked away and played with some other dogs. Felt really good about that.

I'm so glad to hear you use your e-collar when out, Mary Lou. I was feeling like I really didn't want to do that, that it would restrict her play, etc., but I really liked having it on her at the park. To be honest, I don't think many people even noticed she was wearing it. But I knew that if I really had to get her to break away from something, it was much more likely to work with that collar on. Both her prong collar and her e-collar to her mean "obedience time", and I'm far more likely to get great behavior out of her. It doesn't even require correction...just wearing it makes the difference. I bet hers could be out of juice and she'd still behave much better.

Anyway, I'm still planning on working hard on recalls and doing a lot more obedience training while at the park. I think getting her in the "working" mindset while we're there will really help. Maybe even starting off with some obedience before she's released to play?

Any other suggestions greatly appreciated!

MC