Urinary Incontinence?

[Ddski5]

Been noticing a little wet spot here and there but did not want to admit or acknowledge it.

It has been hot down here and I mean walking outside being slapped in the face hot. I know what the heat does to me running, practically shuts me down from a 8/10 to a 5/10. So I chalked up Freyja be more mellow lately to the onset of our heat.

But then, the girls called me at work and told me that Freyja was dripping urine repeatedly and I came home to see it firsthand…I made a vet appt.

Vet appt:
Urine analysis was clear.
Heart is good.
Eyes are good.
Demeanor is good.
Etc….is good.

Discussed urinary incontinence in Dobermans and put her on Incurin (DES) 1mg. Incurin is estriol which is a natural form of estrogen.

Freyja is will be 4 in August.

Any experience or thoughts? Research on this wonderful site says @JanS Della was on this?

 

[JanS]

then, the girls called me at work and told me that Freyja was dripping urine repeatedly and I came home to see it firsthand…I made a vet appt.

Was she doing it when she was sleeping or awake? Usually it's just in their sleep when they aren't aware of it.

Discussed urinary incontinence in Dobermans and put her on Incurin (DES) 1mg. Incurin is estriol which is a natural form of estrogen.

Della was on estradiol and I don't think that's exactly the same thing.

 

[remy]

Is she spayed? I’ve heard this can be a common issue in spayed Dobes. Proin is the medication most seem to be on for this.

 

[Ddski5]

Is she spayed? I’ve heard this can be a common issue in spayed Dobes. Proin is the medication most seem to be on for this.

Yes, spayed at 2yrs.

Yes, begrudgingly it was the first thing that came to mind. It can be a common issue in spayed Dobermans. I was really kinda hoping it was a UTI but she was not squatting 20x with nothing coming out. At least, though bright side is that it doesn’t look like diabetes….

Actually, Proin is not a good med for Dobermans because a side effect can be hypertension and increased risk of strokes- that does not mix with the already predisposition of DCM.

The better recommendation is an Estrogen supplement such as:

-Diethylstilbestrol (DES) is a nonsteroidal estrogen derivative.
-Stylbesterol tablets
-Estradiol

-Proin is used if the above does not work and the urine is coming out like a facet. They really don’t like to use Proin with Dobermans and Boxers.

 

[jazzies mum]

Jazz has been on Stilboestrol 1mg once a week tablets for 6yrs now and hasn't suffered any side effects. All dogs are different but here's hoping you find something that works just as well!

 

[Ravenbird]

Actually, Proin is not a good med for Dobermans because a side effect can be hypertension and increased risk of strokes- that does not mix with the already predisposition of DCM.

The better recommendation is an Estrogen supplement such as:

-Diethylstilbestrol (DES) is a nonsteroidal estrogen derivative.
-Stylbesterol tablets
-Estradiol

-Proin is used if the above does not work and the urine is coming out like a facet. They really don’t like to use Proin with Dobermans and Boxers.

That's some good information right there. Sorry you're going through this, and for Freyja too. I've been on the fence about spaying for a couple of years now for this very reason. Is your medication expected to clear things up pretty quick or does it take a while? Is it pretty much for life?

 

[Ddski5]

That's some good information right there. Sorry you're going through this, and for Freyja too. I've been on the fence about spaying for a couple of years now for this very reason. Is your medication expected to clear things up pretty quick or does it take a while? Is it pretty much for life?

I am so glad that @jazzies mum responded because I read her past post on Jazz being on Stilboestrol 1mg, which is an Estrogen supplement. To hear Jazz has been on it for a good while, titrated down and still being the crazy girl we know of is great and about what the vet told me.

A lot of y’all know this but I want to add and explain so that new folks who search this topic will get a good idea of everything:

The issue with the incontinence is that when spayed, it eliminates her Estrogen production. The lack of Estrogen can cause loss of muscle tone in the urethra, thus unable to gate keep urine from leaking out. The meds are a non-steroidal estrogen derivative used to build up her Estrogen level. Freyja is to take two per day for two weeks and then down to one per day. From there, we watch and titrate further down if possible. Some Dobermans titrate all the way down to 1 small tablet every two weeks. So really, it’s about increasing her Estrogen to an adequate level to decrease leakage.

So not really a gigantic deal or life threatening, just something that needs to be supplemented. Yes, most likely for the rest of her life.

 

[JanS]

1mg once a week tablets for 6yrs now and hasn't suffered any side effects.

That was pretty much the same dose as Della was on and she never had any side effects either.

 

[Ravenbird]

I know this isn't exclusive to Dobermans, but I have read that it is more common in this breed. I'm curious about the whys. Every breed of dog will lose the estrogen production when spayed, so why are some breeds more prone to this particular muscle loss? And once again, tossing this out to the older folks here: I don't remember it use to be a thing. I worked at a vets in the 80's, I don't remember any SI dogs coming in for treatment. We had a lot of Doberman clients - they were at their heyday of popularity, most all females were spayed. I had my previous two Dobes, both female, both spayed, no SI. @JanS was Della your first SI girl? Haven't you always had a female dog along with a male? Curious if past years you dealt with SI.

 

[JanS]

was Della your first SI girl?

Yes but we had all males before we got her and she was the only one we had spayed. Phoebe developed a little bit of incontinence when she was so sick but that was most likely because of the exploratory surgery and how fatigued her body was.

I'm curious about the whys. Every breed of dog will lose the estrogen production when spayed, so why are some breeds more prone to this particular muscle loss?

That is a great question and I think I've seen theories about it, but I don't think there are any proven set in stone facts.

I do want to have Olive spayed when she's old enough but the SI is always a worry.

 

[Rits]

If you aren't going to breed, the concern of pyo is far more expensive and life threatening than spay incontinence. If I wasn't showing and breeding Ripley she would be spayed. My friend's bitch just went through pyo surgery at 5 years old. Thousands of dollars in the double digits. She almost lost her and there is still a possibility of losing her if she doesn't heal well. She had to stay a few nights to recover only to go back for an additional night because she developed a hematoma that burst on the way home.

once again, tossing this out to the older folks here: I don't remember it use to be a thing.

Maybe as with everything else, veterinarian medicine has become advanced enough that it is being recognized and treated more than it has in the past. How old is steroid treatment and hormone therapy in dogs? Probably also less dogs were spayed in the past and were left in tact.

 

[JanS]

the concern of pyo is far more expensive and life threatening than spay incontinence.

That is an absolute fact and @obbanner had that emergency with his Anna.

She had to stay a few nights to recover only to go back for an additional night because she developed a hematoma that burst on the way home.

How scary and horrible!

 

[Ddski5]

Well here’s a thought…

If it is highly encouraged to keep your Doberman intact because the hormones play such a key role in development and overall physiological maintenance, then why not start a low dose of the hormone lost after the procedure? That’s the way humans do it for thyroid deficiency, and when females have a hysterectomy, do they start on hormones?

Has to be a reason….I will ask the vet.

 

[Ravenbird]

Probably also less dogs were spayed in the past and were left in tact.

Not in the 80's. That era was when every vet promoted s & n at 6 months and especially spaying females before their first heat.

Has to be a reason….I will ask the vet.

Please share if you get an answer!
@Rits since you have a reproductive vet maybe you could ask about proactive hormones post spay?

I *think* I recall that another vet clinic in town one of the vets there listed breeding/reproduction studies on her bio. Maybe I'll put a call in to her. She's seen Asha before when my regular vet was out of town.

 

[Ddski5]

Update:

Freyja started on 2mg of Incurin a day. Loading phase is 2mg a day for two weeks and then 1mg a a day and then titer down from there. For ex, maybe just 1mg 3x week- which ever keeps her from dripping.

Did the two weeks 2mg day- it was fine and she stopped dripping; went down to 1mg. Two days of dropping down to 1mg, Freyja started noticeably dripping- did this for two days. So went back up to 2mg a day for another two weeks and this stopped the dripping again. I really did not like the Incurin, which is basically estrogen hormone replacement, because it would make her temperature increase. You could tell by touching her skin- she would be hot and start panting, synthetic hormones….

So that’s 2 weeks of 2mg, 2 days of 1mg, back up to 2mg, then again tried back down to 1mg and two days after, dripping again so back up to 2mg.

So she it’s therapeutic at 2mg but not at 1mg but makes her really hot and panting.

So did a shat load of research and naturalistic way to treat this is with 1000mgs Pumpkin seed oil and 1/2 tsp corn silk. So tried this and it did not work…and also caused her to have yellow orange cow patty poops.

Then the Incurin 2mg a day stopped working and we were back to square one. We went back to vet and he suggested Proin. Lots of different views on using this with Dobermans because it has a possible side effect of increasing blood pressure and with possibility of DCM- just not a good mixture. I did some more research in it and found 6/8 female Dobermans were on Proin for more than 2yrs and it stopped the incontinence with no blood pressure issues. This is completely my research of “Dobermans on Proin for incontinence”.

So we put Freyja on Proin 75mg 2x day and she has been dry for two weeks now with no over heating, panting, shakes, seizures, etc…The suggested dosage is generalized to 2mg per kg or .91mg per lb. twice a day. She is 83lbs which computes to 75.53, so she taking 1/2 tablet under recommended dosage right now.

Our next step is to go to down to 1-1/2 tablets and see if that will keep her from dripping. Tbh, I don’t see any side effects.

I am not either for or against Incurin or Proin…just trying to establish some experience for future folks with issues.

 

[JanS]

Thanks for the update on this. I want to have Olive spayed after she's 2 and the incontinence has always been a concern. I just don't want two intact dogs in the household and we would like to leave Elroy intact.

 

[Gpcoguy]

Rose is on Diethylstilbesterol. 1 mg./ week

 

[Ravenbird]

Rose is on Diethylstilbesterol. 1 mg./ week

Because of spay incontinence? What age was she spayed, just curious.

Our next step is to go to down to 1-1/2 tablets and see if that will keep her from dripping. Tbh, I don’t see any side effects.

I am not either for or against Incurin or Proin…just trying to establish some experience for future folks with issues

I appreciate your research and hope the Proin works for her.

 

[Kswoodssue]

Sorry your Freya is going through this. Hot flashes are no fun either. Have you noticed any changes in her temperment with the medication? Also, is it just the urethra or is the bladder also? Appreciate your information!

 

[Ddski5]

Sorry your Freya is going through this. Hot flashes are no fun either. Have you noticed any changes in her temperment with the medication? Also, is it just the urethra or is the bladder also? Appreciate your information!

Through it all, I have not noticed any changes of mood or temperament- which surprises me tbh.

The meds are used to increase muscle tone with the urethra sphincter.