Toddler/puppy dynamic

[Doubletroublemomma]

Hi everyone,

Sorry, this may be long! But any and all advice is welcome!

I'm new to the forum but not new to dobermans. I have a 6.5 year old intact male, Odin, who is an absolute sweetheart. He spent the first year of his life with a very fierce alpha female dog which shaped him into a passive boy. I also have a 3 year old daughter and Odin has been amazing with her from the day we brought her home. Their relationship is amazing.

Recently we decided to add another Dobie puppy to our family as we thought our 6.5 year old would be a good influence and we have the time as my husband recently got laid off so we are both around to train and deal with our toddler.

We've had our new guy, Ekko, for 2 weeks and he is a savage compared to Odin. From everything I've read, Ekko is a pretty typical pup, whereas Odin seemed to have been the anomaly. Ekko is very bitey, quite stubborn, and has a terrible sleep pattern.

I know he will grow out of the nipping and biting, and he seems eager to learn commands when given rewards, however him and my toddlers relationship is concerning and I don't know how to correct it. Because my daughter is small (and 3 so obviously ignores everything I say ), Ekko sees her as a playmate. When the opportunity arises, if she's on the ground, he will nip at her and knock her down. We try and keep them apart as much as possible when he's in his zoomies mood, but she's so eager to pet him and be involved that she makes it her mission to get near him.

How do you all deal with the toddler/puppy dynamic? I feel like I can't keep them apart 24/7 and I don't want this habit of his to continue, especially when he gets bigger and could do serious damage by knocking her down. What's the best way to correct this behavior?

Weve only had him 2 weeks, so we are all still in our adjustment period, but I'd like to correct this behavior asap.

Also, any tips on getting him to sleep longer at night would be awesome! He typically wakes up around 1am for a pee and then thinks it's playtime for 2 hours despite putting him in his kennel or going back to bed.

Thanks for reading this far! I look forward to any advice

 

[Ddski5]

How old is Ekko?

 

[Doubletroublemomma]

How old is Ekko?

10 weeks, we got him at 8 weeks

 

[Cferg]

You’re forgetting about the relationship between the dogs. Your existing dog looks none too thrilled in the picture. If you continue to let Ekko chew on Odin, his puppy pass will expire sooner than later. As passive as you think Odin is he could do a lot of damage very quickly.

 

[Doubletroublemomma]

You’re forgetting about the relationship between the dogs. Your existing dog looks none too thrilled in the picture. If you continue to let Ekko chew on Odin, his puppy pass will expire sooner than later. As passive as you think Odin is he could do a lot of damage very quickly.

Him and Odin are good pals now. That picture was to show the 2 of them. Odin has made it clear he's the boss and when they play, Ekko submits when playtime is up.

 

[Doubletroublemomma]

You’re forgetting about the relationship between the dogs. Your existing dog looks none too thrilled in the picture. If you continue to let Ekko chew on Odin, his puppy pass will expire sooner than later. As passive as you think Odin is he could do a lot of damage very quickly.

I'm unsure how to edit my original post, so here's a better picture of the two.

 

[Cferg]

You’re going to have to monitor or keep your toddler separated for awhile. The biting and roughness will get much worse before it starts to get better. I recommend you start crate training if you haven’t already.
Also I would keep the pup on a leash attached to me in the house for quite sometime. This can help prevent tons of unwanted behaviors. And helps with potty training.

 

[Doubletroublemomma]

You’re going to have to monitor or keep your toddler separated for awhile. The biting and roughness will get much worse before it starts to get better. I recommend you start crate training if you haven’t already.
Also I would keep the pup on a leash attached to me in the house for quite sometime. This can help prevent tons of unwanted behaviors. And helps with potty training.

Ok. We've got him crate trained for naps and he's alright with it at night, but it's not his ideal place for sure. He's doing amazing with potty training, he's great at alerting us when he needs to go.

And yes, they are never left unattended together.

Is there anything I should be doing specifically to correct his nipping? I've read a number of posts on here and my husband and I have started implementing some. I guess I'm just hoping to hear it's normal behavior and he will eventually catch on to the corrections and things will ease up. Odin was a little angel compared to this guy hah.

 

[Ddski5]

You got you a true Dobershark and it’s not going away anytime soon. You need to redirect with toys and training every chance- every time he comes at you. And tbh, you are trying to establish some obedience but really just trying to get through the crazy demon phase.

You can try and train/discipline all you want with his correctness towards your daughter but that’s not changing either. You just need to put a stop to your daughter playing with him when he is in Dobershark mode. If that means she is to not play with him until this phase is over, then so be it. If she continues to play with him and he continues to be forceful and a maniac, I think all you are doing is reinforcing and imprinting in him bad behaviors that will be hard to break in the future- better to just not pattern it now.

As @Cferg stated, to get control of this maniac, I would have him on a leash tethered to me all day long. And his meals would come from my hand as rewards/treats for good behavior.

Good luck…alot of us know what you are going through for we once had a true demon Dobershark.

 

[Cferg]

Ok. We've got him crate trained for naps and he's alright with it at night, but it's not his ideal place for sure. He's doing amazing with potty training, he's great at alerting us when he needs to go.

And yes, they are never left unattended together.

Is there anything I should be doing specifically to correct his nipping? I've read a number of posts on here and my husband and I have started implementing some. I guess I'm just hoping to hear it's normal behavior and he will eventually catch on to the corrections and things will ease up. Odin was a little angel compared to this guy hah.

Sounds like you’re doing it right. And yep this is all normal.

 

[Doubletroublemomma]

Sounds like you’re doing it right. And yep this is all normal.

Oh goodie haha. I guess it's true what they say. The first "child" tricks you into thinking a second is a good idea

 

[Doubletroublemomma]

You got you a true Dobershark and it’s not going away anytime soon. You need to redirect with toys and training every chance- every time he comes at you. And tbh, you are trying to establish some obedience but really just trying to get through the crazy demon phase.

You can try and train/discipline all you want with his correctness towards your daughter but that’s not changing either. You just need to put a stop to your daughter playing with him when he is in Dobershark mode. If that means she is to not play with him until this phase is over, then so be it. If she continues to play with him and he continues to be forceful and a maniac, I think all you are doing is reinforcing and imprinting in him bad behaviors that will be hard to break in the future- better to just not pattern it now.

As @Cferg stated, to get control of this maniac, I would have him on a leash tethered to me all day long. And his meals would come from my hand as rewards/treats for good behavior.

Good luck…alot of us know what you are going through for we once had a true demon Dobershark.

Ok, well that reinforces what we've been thinking. We really don't want this to become a habit.

With how good our first was, I thought the Dobershark was an elusive beast we'd never come across. My mistake

Any tips for cutting out the midnight play sessions? Or will he just outgrow that too?

 

[Kswoodssue]

Our girl learned to self calm in her crate with a sturdy chew toy. We also only did potty breaks at night on a leash. No play time allowed. At 2 yrs old, I would still not feel comfortable with her around a 3 yr old, unless very closely attended. Welcome and hoping for the best for you!

 

[Rits]

Good advice above. Do you have an obedience class lined up for him? I think you'll definitely need it with this one!

Have you looked into same-sex aggression? This breed is known for it, especially males. Everything typically is fine until your puppy becomes mature, around 18-24 months, possibly sooner depending on the dog. Be VERY careful with both your boys out around your toddler when the puppy comes of age. Simple but excitable things can trigger a fight, like another dog or person walking past the window or a toy on the ground. Be prepared for a life of crate and rotate between the two if a fight were to happen.

 

[Ravenbird]

Ok, well that reinforces what we've been thinking. We really don't want this to become a habit.

A quote to remember: "What you don't want to see your adult dog doing, don't let them rehearse the practice as a puppy."

Any tips for cutting out the midnight play sessions?

Out on leash to potty, go to the potty place, stand still, no talking except the word "go potty", or whatever phase you use. when he goes, say good boy, bring him straight into his crate, and lights out. No words spoken at all, no animation, especially no sweet talk or cooing. All business. Cover his crate if you haven't already so nothing outside the crate can attract his attention. Ignore anything he does. You call them midnight "play sessions" - if he's just awake and just amusing himself, I wouldn't worry about it. If he's whining, crying, scratching at the crate, ignoring him is usually the best. Any attention he gets from you will be a win in his mind.

I totally agree with leashing him to your waist. And using his meals for short training. Plus take him out in the yard or in a different room in the house with no distractions for some one on one training with his food. He will learn to look at you (and your husband should do this too) as the most important factors and fun. Once they understand that, the other dog and the child become secondary in his life. It won't happen overnight, but as he matures it will all come together. These harder puppies tend to want to be in charge of the world but at the same time will really appreciate you taking charge, setting boundaries, structure and routine. They thrive on guidance once they understand the rules.

 

[Ravenbird]

You’re forgetting about the relationship between the dogs. Your existing dog looks none too thrilled in the picture. If you continue to let Ekko chew on Odin, his puppy pass will expire sooner than later. As passive as you think Odin is he could do a lot of damage very quickly.

I will point out that this can work the opposite way too. My housemates dog was 5 years old when I got Asha at 10 weeks. Asha was all over Reckless, merciless. Reckless had impeccable manners and had been taught all her life to ignore other dogs. She wanted to play, but Asha would start jumping all over her, biting and zooming, bulldozing and ... Reckless retreated. This built Asha up in just 3 or 4 weeks to think she could bully that older dog and since she was so young, there was very little to do to control her except keep her on leash. This was never allowed inside, but every time we tried to let them play outside, Asha took the reins. If Reckless had just taken control once or twice and put that puppy in place, it would have been a good lesson. As it was, she learned that she could rule that older dog, and now 4 years later it's still true. The dogs get along just fine, but R does submit space anytime Asha moves into it. On one hand, it might work best to have one dominant dog and one passive dog that will never challenge the dominant one. Especially regarding same sex aggression (both our dogs are intact females, now 4 and 9). If you have two dogs that both think they need to be #1, then chances are much greater for fighting. Since adulthood, Asha has snapped at Reckless in a nasty way 3 times, and as @Rits mentioned, it was R coming into the kitchen while Asha was watching me cut up meat, it was R sniffing A's bed when A was in a nesting mode of a mild false pregnancy and lastly was a weird one that I should write a thread about: The arrival of her Holter from her breeder in the mail, when I opened the box both dogs came to look and Asha had the strangest look while smelling the odors of where she was born and snapped nasty at Reckless who was just sniffing curiously to see what the deal was. So all of those were "protective" snaps and a very forward other female may have taken that as an invite to fight, but R being who she is, backed off with apology for being in Ashas space.

Sorry for the ramble, just thoughts...

 

[Cferg]

I also once got a puppy with an existing dog. Thinking my older dog would “mentor” the pup. Although I took the pup with me to work everyday still the time at home alone with my older dog couldn’t be overcome. And the pup bonded to dog more than me.

 

[Doubletroublemomma]

I also once got a puppy with an existing dog. Thinking my older dog would “mentor” the pup. Although I took the pup with me to work everyday still the time at home alone with my older dog couldn’t be overcome. And the pup bonded to dog more than me.

I think that's what we were ideally hoping for. We wanted Odin to have a playmate/buddy. I mentioned earlier he spent the first year of his life with another dog, and he's lived with other dogs on and off his whole life. My brother-in-law has an older husky-Shepard and they've lived with us a number of times in the past few years. Our neighbors also used to have a husky mix that would commonly escape their yard to come play with Odin.

I know he's only 6.5 years old, but some friends down the road from us lost both their dobes around 9, and I'd love to see Odin have a relationship like they did before his time is up. Provided Ekko grows out of this demon phase, I think they could have a good bond. They're both showing signs that they want to be friends.

 

[Doubletroublemomma]

A quote to remember: "What you don't want to see your adult dog doing, don't let them rehearse the practice as a puppy."


Out on leash to potty, go to the potty place, stand still, no talking except the word "go potty", or whatever phase you use. when he goes, say good boy, bring him straight into his crate, and lights out. No words spoken at all, no animation, especially no sweet talk or cooing. All business. Cover his crate if you haven't already so nothing outside the crate can attract his attention. Ignore anything he does. You call them midnight "play sessions" - if he's just awake and just amusing himself, I wouldn't worry about it. If he's whining, crying, scratching at the crate, ignoring him is usually the best. Any attention he gets from you will be a win in his mind.

I totally agree with leashing him to your waist. And using his meals for short training. Plus take him out in the yard or in a different room in the house with no distractions for some one on one training with his food. He will learn to look at you (and your husband should do this too) as the most important factors and fun. Once they understand that, the other dog and the child become secondary in his life. It won't happen overnight, but as he matures it will all come together. These harder puppies tend to want to be in charge of the world but at the same time will really appreciate you taking charge, setting boundaries, structure and routine. They thrive on guidance once they understand the rules.

I wish he would just entertain himself haha. If he's in his crate and doesn't want to be he will cry and cry and cry. He's very vocal. Which isn't terrible but it's not ideal at 2 or 3am when he spends 30 minutes whining. Our house is small and sound travels easily. His whines easily wake up my daughter. It's made for a "moody" couple weeks in the house with a lack of sleep. I've spent the last 3 years running on broken sleep so I can handle it, but my daughter and husband don't do so well.

Do you have any insight on how long this rebellious whining will last at night?

 

[StateOfMine]

Oh goodie haha. I guess it's true what they say. The first "child" tricks you into thinking a second is a good idea

My older brother was the easiest baby out of my mom's 5 children. He slept well, ate well, rarely cried...

Then I came along and my mom said I gave her the most intense morning sickness, I screamed for hours just because and I hated sleep (I still do). I was her most difficult baby and I'm #2. It's me, I'm the demon. I paid back her efforts ten fold when I hit my teens. I followed the rules, I didn't do any of the foolish things most teens do (my older brother was a damn fool), and I was mom #2 to my 3 younger brothers that came after me while she went to nursing school. I made sure to be a positive influence on my younger siblings and they followed in my foot steps, no foolish behaviors like my older brother at all.

My point is, the difficult children, or pups too, turn out to be awesome if you put the time and effort into them. Be patient, be consistent, and keep reminding yourself that the effort you put in now will pay you back ten fold later. I had a lab pup before my current doberman, Flint, and she was much more headstrong than him (so far, as he only just turned 6 months). As an adult, that lab was the smartest and most fearless creature I've ever seen. She chased off strange dogs from our property and away from my brothers more than once, including a rott/shepherd mix. She also chased off a feral hog and several foxes from our chickens, probably saved my brothers' lives more times than I know. She was seriously like Old Yeller, but jet black and small for her breed.

She was well loved and will be missed dearly.

Flint so far feels mild to me, though my husband was taken aback by the biting and nipping at first. The redirect strategy works great for Flint and I've rarely had a problem with him ignoring toys and preferring to mouth us. When he has, we dropped the toys and walked away. Game over. The one time he insisted on being a bitey little butthead after that, he was given a swift correction with a sideways pop on the collar, a firm "NO!" and he was taken outside away from us for a few minutes. That was the worst for him. He loves being with us. I haven't had any persistent biting since.

I have noticed he's getting sneakier in his doberteens and he's pushing boundaries again, so I'll keep everyone updated on how things go.