I don't watch either one of those trainers, I was under the impression that ZG was a bit of a joke so never bothered... and haven't looked at the link you provided yet, but I will.
For now, I'll say what I've said over & over:
You can train a dog to do anything with click & treat, and I've used this to train almost everything I've taught my dog, but you can't train them NOT to do something without some kind of correction. The correction depends on the dog and how determined they are to do the wrong thing. You can't do food scatters to distract your dog from chasing the chickens. You can't click and treat your dog from growling at you when you try to sit on the couch next to him.
I know you've been gone from here for a while, but I'd suggest you can do a quick run through these Training & Behavior threads and I'd be interested how you'd deal with some of these aggressive dogs.
I think positive training is the way to go when training tricks & tasks, which is obviously Zak's focus, and he seems to be very good at that. That's the reason I was interested in his methodology originally, but I don't think he's ever really shown "rehabbing" a reactive dog or otherwise dealing with a high-drive working dog with problem behaviors with his positive-only training. He shows how to "stop unwanted barking" and stuff like that, but I don't recall seeing any critical training for severe problem behaviors.
You're spot-on that positive-only is great for teaching a dog to do things, but not very effective at training them to not do things, although I wonder if negative punishment falls into the "positive only" training philosophy and that's the cop-out, because reducing operant conditioning to one out of four tools seems pretty silly, and negative reinforcement & positive punishment can certainly be minimized and a matter of degree.
When dealing with problem behaviors such as aggression, the method really depends on the primary motivation of the problematic behavior. Punishing dominance-fueled aggression really requires correction. Punishing fear-motivated behavior aggravates the reactivity, and I think the only way to correct behaviors motivated by fear & anxiety are positive experiences such as "touch it" and careful desensitization that sets a dog up for success & builds confidence.
Both are sort of jokes. Especially DD. He was finally banned on TikTok.
I wonder if that's why I'm being bombarded with his shorts on YT. The guy seems more image than substance, I've only seen a couple of videos with him explaining anything. The one thing that Zak is 100% correct about is that dog training is usually more about the owner than the dog, but that's hardly an insight that he has a monopoly on, I've heard that from all competent trainers as long as I've had dogs. Same with horses. You simply can't expect to have a trainer spend a few hours or days with an animal and then put it back into the care of idiot owners and expect anything from the training to stick.
I’m lucky that very early on of owning Stassi I was able to fully realize in person, the glaring shortcomings of positive only. Especially if a trainer has turned it into an ideology.
I needed another pair of eyes on Stassi when she was 4 months old after her reactivity started. It was the middle of the Covid lockdowns. And when you Google local trainers the majority of trainers are going to be positive only at least in California. Stassi being only 4 months was positively trained anyway at that point. So I called and scheduled an appointment for my house. If nothing else maybe the trainer would critique my timing. And I figured that even though they were positive based they would have some suggestions about adding something else to what we were doing. Which clearly wasn’t working.
Soon as the lady got there and Stassi was blowing her up and not trying to get away. I point blank asked her “so I’m supposed to sit here and let her lose her s**t, then wait minutes for her to stop, and then mark and reward?” She replied yes! That’s when I saw that some people turn it into an ideology. She was still completely embracing the idea of just giving her treats. And let her lose her mind, no matter how obvious the self rewarding of her reactivity was. It’s like there wasn’t even any conceivable other option.
It can work to do that, if the trainer isn't charging by the hour or you have unlimited money and time, but it depends a lot on the cause of the reactivity. Beyond that, though, why spend a huge amount of time and effort just for the sake of the ideology, when a minor correction that won't traumatize the dog in any way might get things on the right track quickly and minimize frustrations for everyone, especially the dog?
I don't care too much for trainers who think like that. It's like they're just trying to make a point at their clients' expense.
Wow that's amazing and not the way to do it; especially with this breed who wants to get all of the leverage they can figure out. Then get rewarded for it???
There's a vet tech/dog trainer at our vet and she was talking about doing at least one group class. I picked up her card so I had her contact info, then I looked at the back of the card saying "strictly positive reinforcement clicker training" so that was that.
Even at the local humane society that I volunteered at as a dog training apprentice a few decades ago, while the focus to make the dogs more adoptable was in positive clicker training (they were also huge on the Gentle Leaders that were a fad at the time), they absolutely were not shy using correction when necessary.
The challenge dealing with intelligent, self-motivated, assertive animals is that they absolutely will test and take advantage of anyone they know is not really in control of the situation.
My first horse ownership experience could've ended really badly. I was a beginner, he was not a beginner horse, he had a habit of causing problems even for the supposedly intermediate rider I bought him from. I definitely learned fast from that crash course and he was an amazing horse after we reached an understanding, which was mostly that I was not a pushover when he tested boundaries. I let other folks ride him from time to time, it often didn't go too well, because he'd ignore them and treat them like baggage, until they exhibited some meaningful ability to enforce their will, so he actually was a pretty good teacher for a lot of folks I met over the years I had him.
My third Dobe (Kor) took advantage of a coworker who had no experience with dogs. I'd taken him to work for the first time, all seemed to be going well, he was doing fine with everyone all morning after meeting my teammates, so I left him in the team office when I went out to meet with an end user. When I came back, he had said coworker cornered (literally backed into a corner) and was forcing him to pet him. Whenever the petting stopped, the growling/menacing would start, so my coworker had been in the corner, petting him for about 20 minutes, waiting for rescue.
That's hilarious, but at the same time, horrifying. The coworker took it all in stride and wasn't traumatized too badly. Kor tried similar naughty behavior on another coworker who did have some experience with dogs, who assertively told him to "knock it off," and that was that.
What kind of positive reinforcement is going to stop an assertive animal from just doing what they want and bullying their handler and anyone else? What happens if someone doesn't have a bribe that's better than what the animal is already getting from their misbehavior?
I used the laugh emoji because I did go look at the Zak video trashing DD. Zak and his drama made me LOL, and DD and his shiny gold outfits and sunglasses made me LOL even harder. The link wouldn't load so I may have watched a different one than suggested, but both these guys are in it for ego.
I think it's fair to say that any animal trainer that is writing books about themselves, starring in TV shows, putting on clinics with their names in huge letters, wearing ridiculous flashy costumes, and selling branded merch are in it for the ego, and that definitely includes both of these guys, Cesar Milan, Monty Robets, and basically anyone whose sensational personal brands and showmanship outshine the methodology. I see Zak in a different light knowing that he's been brand-building and doing cable TV shows for a while.
That said, I do approve of anyone calling-out charlatans, especially when their nonsense can harm animals or humans.
Basically my story as well. If you put the word Never or Only in your vocabulary you are burying yourself and your dog. I gave it a good ol' college try, but my dog just ate my lunch over it. Glaring Shortcomings is a great description.
Absolutely spot-on.
Personally, I try to start with as much positive reinforcement as is effective and minimizing the negative reinforcement & positive punishment as much as possible, escalating only as needed.
I think the real key to any unpleasant stimuli is to put the animal in control of the stimulus (or give it the perception that it's in control), and make sure it's aware that it can end the unpleasantness at any time. Working dogs with correct temperaments are supposed to be self-motivated, hard (resistant to backing-down when pressure/punishment are applied) and some degree of stubborn/tenacious. Throwing-out most of the toolkit just seems to be asking for trouble when a dog or horse is more interested in doing its own thing than receiving positive reinforcement.
