Dog Parks and Psychological Benefits?

[EricA]

I can understand this to a point but my Dobermans do not play/interact with other unknown dogs.

SNIP

Dogs at a public dog park and a stranger come in with an aggressive breed?

Got it. So loud noises and other dogs your fidos cant manage because you never let them even 'try' (or expose them to it) and gain confidence at it.

(My Doberman girls do not have these fear issues like yours do - Take a wild guess why not)

All this garbage about the Pitts and 'aggressive breeds' is comical. You do realize you have a Doberman right and that there are lots of people out there that lump YOUR dog in that same group of dogs correct?

As watered down and sissyfied as our breed is currently we STILL have difficulties thanks to BSL (breed specific legislation) due to people that are irrationally fearful of stuff they know very little about. This is WHY we have trouble getting simple stuff like insurance and have to sign waivers excluding any liabilities due to our dogs breed. (not due to their 'actions' - simply due to their 'breed')

What do you people like you do if you are out in public (lets just say at a Petco or a TSC or at a beach like Rits recently was) and someone comes along or heaven forbid 'inside' with a Pitt? Are you going to go hide in a corner someplace and hope the evil Pitt does not see you or summon an employee and ask her to make the person with the 'potentially aggressive breed' leave the store because you are scared for the safety of you and your fido???
(I actually HAD a goofy damn woman do that crap to ME and my dogs in a Petco one time - The employee was told to go pound sand and insults were loudly directed at the irrationally fearful woman)

 

[EricA]

I haven't stepped foot in a dog park with my dobermans. And yet, my dogs can play with other dogs! They do not need a dog park to be "socialized" (rather for socialized I think the better word is desensitized) or to know how to play with other dogs. They learned this from their mother and littermates.

Be honest.

Considering your recent comments about the random dog at the beach and then more recently your dog having those issues at the whatever competition thing because of the other dog there that did what?

No. That is not what you see from a 'desensitized' owner or dog. Not even close.

 

[StateOfMine]

Got it. So loud noises and other dogs your fidos cant manage because you never let them even 'try' (or expose them to it) and gain confidence at it.

(My Doberman girls do not have these fear issues like yours do - Take a wild guess why not)

All this garbage about the Pitts and 'aggressive breeds' is comical. You do realize you have a Doberman right and that there are lots of people out there that lump YOUR dog in that same group of dogs correct?

As watered down and sissyfied as our breed is currently we STILL have difficulties thanks to BSL (breed specific legislation) due to people that are irrationally fearful of stuff they know very little about. This is WHY we have trouble getting simple stuff like insurance and have to sign waivers excluding any liabilities due to our dogs breed. (not due to their 'actions' - simply due to their 'breed')

What do you people like you do if you are out in public (lets just say at a Petco or a TSC or at a beach like Rits recently was) and someone comes along or heaven forbid 'inside' with a Pitt? Are you going to go hide in a corner someplace and hope the evil Pitt does not see you or summon an employee and ask her to make the person with the 'potentially aggressive breed' leave the store because you are scared for the safety of you and your fido???
(I actually HAD a goofy damn woman do that crap to ME and my dogs in a Petco one time - The employee was told to go pound sand and insults were loudly directed at the irrationally fearful woman)

Well behaved dogs aren't a problem. Leashed dogs are rarely a problem. I don't fear pitbulls, I carry a firearm on my hip for those as well as dangerous humans.

I was once a pitbull advocate myself until I took an honest step back and looked at the evidence, then I woke up.

Pitbulls Unleashed

This video, along with my own research afterward, pretty much set me against pitbulls for the rest of my life and is also a reason will never adopt a shelter dog or rescue a dog ever again (all of my previous shelter dogs had severe behavioral issues so I was pretty much on that train anyway). Kudos to people giving homes to dogs with an unknown history and those that are willing to work with insane behavior problems of shelter dogs, but I have found it is not for me. I have had much more enjoyable experiences with puppies from breeders.

Anyway @EricA if you are very very certain I don't know what I'm talking about, find time to watch that whole documentary. It's a long one, but it allows pitbull lobbyists (because that's what they are) to speak their side as well as those against bully breeds. Personally I thought the bully lobbyists' side was emotionally charged and the argument overall was very lacking, but you judge for yourself if you end up watching it.

I will tell you this: Lying about a breed that you love, ignoring it's breeding and purpose, does the breed no favors nor yourself. I wouldn't tell anyone "my dog wouldn't hurt a fly." I would say, "Its a doberman, they were bred originally to protect and to guard. They have been watered down from their original purpose but I won't say that if you break into my house or try to attack me he won't bite. He might."

 

[Rits]

about the random dog at the beach

Yes, a strange dog ran AT my dog, me, my husband, and our puppy. My dog does not appreciate rude dogs. She is dog reactive to RUDE dogs.

or at a beach like Rits recently was

Yes, my dogs were ON LEASH and were charged at by an OFF LEASH dog. But I'm in the wrong because my doberman responded appropriately to a rude dog charging at her pack?

because of the other dog there that did what?

The dog lunged and bit at my dog for walking by in a focused heel. My dog hackled up in response. She did not lunge back, growl, or bark.

No. That is not what you see from a 'desensitized' owner or dog. Not even close.

Get real, guy. You do realize my dog is around THOUSANDS of dogs almost every weekend? And not one reaction from her nor do I worry about her. So, thanks for your unsolicited advice but I think we're doing just fine.

@EricA Do you enjoy being combative with people because they do things differently than you or disagree with you? This isn't the first time you've called me out, directly or indirectly. Now you are personally bringing me into your arguments with other members here "to make a point". This place is fairly peaceful even when people disagree, and there is a way to disagree or share your opinion without being so rude.

 

[MyBuddy]

Given that dobermans are often dog reactive by nature... dog parks are not a good idea. Great idea if you want to spend thousands in training trying to fix your now super reactive or now fearful dog

Well, I can totally relate to that! I recently told a story here of my sister-in-law and her Golden Retriever. Her dog has been very reactive toward other dogs and she was really having a problem with her. This is her fifth golden retriever so she's not new to the breed. And her dogs were always well trained.

I had a conversation with her recently where we both were kind of brainstorming on what happened and how to fix it. When she told me she went to a dog park when the dog was young, that peaked my interest! I said, "and how did that go?"

Well, her dog was young and another dog (or two) had come up to her aggressively! Scared the crap out of her puppy and now she's having problems. I knew that the incident was the culprit. So now she told me she was spending $1,800 to have a trainer check her dog out!! I have yet to contact her to see how that went but I will.

And if I was against dog parks before (I was ), well, you can imagine.

 

[EricA]

@EricA Do you enjoy being combative with people because they do things differently than you or disagree with you? This isn't the first time you've called me out, directly or indirectly. Now you are personally bringing me into your arguments with other members here "to make a point". This place is fairly peaceful even when people disagree, and there is a way to disagree or share your opinion without being so rude.

I was not being rude.

You have some seriously sheltered dogs.

 

[MyBuddy]

I was not being rude.

You have some seriously sheltered dogs.

Sheltered? What do you consider sheltered? I have always been amazed at what she has done with her dogs! They've been everywhere. Exposed to so many different things. And she shows them! That's a lot of exposure. They're very well trained and I think very well-rounded in a lot of different ways. I don't consider that sheltered at all.

 

[Rits]

I was not being rude.

You have some seriously sheltered dogs.

You are hilariously so incredibly wrong. I'd advise you stop making yourself look so silly and take a step back from targeting my dogs.

 

[obbanner]

I But people are creating over stimulated nerve bags.

I'm reading the same thing about children because parents are overbooking them in sports and social activities.

 

[JanS]

You have some seriously sheltered dogs.

Are you serious? They are constantly out there at shows, training and living life.

 

[Kswoodssue]

If I were the fearful woman in Petco, my fears might be doubled by cursing and name calling. @Rits is a tremendous ambassador for the Doberman breed and she has been a tremendous help and inspiration to me. @EricA it is obvious that you love your dogs and the Doberman breed as well. The diversity of this breed is such a strength, as is the diversity of owners and training methods presented here. Please be kind.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

In another thread today, it was posited, quite correctly, that dogs don't need dog friends to be happy. They just need you. (Thank you, @Kswoodssue ). I decided to offer this:

I agree with this tenet; however I will add to it: The no-dog-friends theory can work just fine if the owner has the time and inclination to put in the effort with their dog in terms of providing adequate physical and mental stimulation. Yes, the no-dog-friends thing is probably best if one really wants to train their dog and have their dog learn to ignore other dogs and pay attention.

Dogs do, however, get something out of playing with other dogs. It's a tremendous release of energy, and source of exercise. What's more, you can tell the dogs probably enjoy it. Yes I hear the theory that it is not natural to expect dogs to play with dogs outside of their pack, and that it could stress them out. That may be true sometimes; but just as sure as lots of people say they can look at a dog and see that they're happy owing to the look on the dog's face, I think that you can see dogs really getting into playing with each other and tell that they're happy.

I will add a couple more points:

I did the dog park thing with Oji because I was worried that if I didn't, and one day a dog ran up to him Oji would be so completely unfamiliar with this that he'd react fearfully and cower. Yes, the dog park is a big risk but I am on my dog like a hawk on a mouse. I'm following him, as much as one can follow a running dog, around the dog park and my eyes are on him almost constantly. I'm ready to dash in and intervene if something is about to go wrong. Still a risk? Yep.

With my current young dog: I am really thinking he is being benefitted by going to the dog park in that it's teaching him better physical control of his body. He is large, and thus far, somewhat uncoordinated and clumsy. I can see that he has gained physical balance, and has learned techniques for handling himself physically when mixing it up with other dogs. There is this young female Visla who weighs about 35 lbs. When we'd first go there, this girl would body check Zephyr and most times knock him over! This, despite his being about double her weight at the time. You could observe over the weeks Zephyr developing the physical skill to stay on his feet. He'd absorb most of the energy by rolling/spinning somewhat away from it, or even doing a 360. I also see that he is learning how to play fight which includes lightly biting and snapping and warring with the jaws. Of course, he has a very gentle mouth, I've observed. He will gently place his jaws completely around another dog's head or legs, etc. Some of the bitches there, however, aren't so gentle and Z has received a cut on his face due to one holding on to a bite on his cheek.

But anyway, yeah, a dog park situation can be good for those reasons – especially for someone who doesn't have a lot of time to spend doing long walks and/or training outside of the house.

 

[StateOfMine]

I'd like for Flint to play with pups around his age for the time being, but I feel conflicted. I am worried that his boldness toward other dogs (he barks and stands tall at any dog that dares bark in his direction which is basically all of them) will turn into bullying or aggression. My husband and I wear him out daily, with only the occasional life event getting in the way and he spends more time in his crate than his usual naps. Sorry Flint, life isn't as routine as we'd all like. But he is so good about it. I have had to bring him to work a few times (I work nightshift and I park in a parking garage so the temperature is always safe, especially this time of year) and he hasn't thrown a fit despite me only able to dedicate 15 - 30 minutes every two hours to him while I work. He stays in a large travel crate in my car and he's been incredibly compliant beyond an occasional ten second groan when he realizes I am leaving again.

Anyway back on track, I'd like for him to learn early that dogs are not a big deal. They are not threats, they can be fun if I allow him to play, but for the most part they are just ok. His only interactions with dogs he had had since I got him have been the neighbor's dogs barking at him when we pass by their yards and my mom's dominant female giving him snarls and nips when he tries to play. She just has no patience or tolerance for pups and he outweighs her by 20lbs probably. He will be starting puppy classes on the 13th of this month, and while I am mainly going there so he will learn to listen even with distractions, I'd like for him to have at least a few positive interactions with other dogs. I hoped letting him tussle a little bit with other rowdy pups that are just as socially awkward might help calm his confrontational attitude towards other dogs a bit.

Once he gets a bit older, I planned on teaching him to ignore other dogs entirely unless I say its okay. Does this seem like a good plan to anyone else? Any thoughts at all would be welcome.

 

[Ravenbird]

What @Doberman Gang said and his video of Michael Ellis shows. I've stated my position on dog parks many times here and nothing will change my mind.

The Doberman breed especially wants nothing more than to be close to their human. Your biggest favor to them would be to spend 30 minutes to an hour in a group obedience class where all the pups are under control, so you get exposure to working around other dogs/people. Your dog will consider it an outing with you, not strange dogs. As your puppy gets older add different challenges with your classes: nose work, agility, rally, whatever. Find what your dog loves to do, even if it's just hiking together. You get a Doberman because you want a companion and best friend. Be that.

I'll just post again my opinion that I stated in May. Go back to page 1 of this thread to re-watch the video that DG posted.

Also in your other post yesterday you stated that at 14 weeks he already has some animosity toward other dogs. "pretty socially open with people, though he seems to be increasingly confrontational with other dogs". Loose in a dog park is the last thing you want.

 

[Rits]

I'd like for Flint to play with pups around his age for the time being, but I feel conflicted. I am worried that his boldness toward other dogs (he barks and stands tall at any dog that dares bark in his direction which is basically all of them) will turn into bullying or aggression. My husband and I wear him out daily, with only the occasional life event getting in the way and he spends more time in his crate than his usual naps. Sorry Flint, life isn't as routine as we'd all like. But he is so good about it. I have had to bring him to work a few times (I work nightshift and I park in a parking garage so the temperature is always safe, especially this time of year) and he hasn't thrown a fit despite me only able to dedicate 15 - 30 minutes every two hours to him while I work. He stays in a large travel crate in my car and he's been incredibly compliant beyond an occasional ten second groan when he realizes I am leaving again.

Anyway back on track, I'd like for him to learn early that dogs are not a big deal. They are not threats, they can be fun if I allow him to play, but for the most part they are just ok. His only interactions with dogs he had had since I got him have been the neighbor's dogs barking at him when we pass by their yards and my mom's dominant female giving him snarls and nips when he tries to play. She just has no patience or tolerance for pups and he outweighs her by 20lbs probably. He will be starting puppy classes on the 13th of this month, and while I am mainly going there so he will learn to listen even with distractions, I'd like for him to have at least a few positive interactions with other dogs. I hoped letting him tussle a little bit with other rowdy pups that are just as socially awkward might help calm his confrontational attitude towards other dogs a bit.

Once he gets a bit older, I planned on teaching him to ignore other dogs entirely unless I say its okay. Does this seem like a good plan to anyone else? Any thoughts at all would be welcome.

Skip the dog park and stick with the dog classes. My 5 month boy has never once played with other strange dogs until recently, he's only seen them through classes. He's always been cocky from a young age (alert or woofing at strange dogs) and this has largely disappeared as time has gone on with more exposure to other dogs in a controlled setting. I would ignore the behavior while carrying on through training. I attributed it to a little tough guy attitude because he was unsure. Now that he's been exposed more and more to other dogs, and they don't bother him, and he's focused on me the entire time? I wouldn't want it any other way!! He's had one playdate two weeks ago with a select few well behaved dogs of the trainers/my friend, and there were zero issues. I didn't expect there to be either. That was the first time he's ever played with strange dogs and there wasn't a problem. Socializing is more about exposure indirectly than directly. If you are going to have them directly interact with other dogs, do it with dogs that you know and are well balanced.

My 3yo girl I mistakenly took a class where the place had puppy free for all time before hand, never again. She was too focused on everything else and other dogs that we had to work through that A LOT in the early stages to undo what she had learned. Yes, its cute to see and watch them have fun but it's so much work to try to get them engaged with you after learning that other dogs are a lot of fun. Hard to compete

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I'd like for Flint to play with pups around his age for the time being, but I feel conflicted. I am worried that his boldness toward other dogs (he barks and stands tall at any dog that dares bark in his direction which is basically all of them) will turn into bullying or aggression. My husband and I wear him out daily, with only the occasional life event getting in the way and he spends more time in his crate than his usual naps. Sorry Flint, life isn't as routine as we'd all like. But he is so good about it. I have had to bring him to work a few times (I work nightshift and I park in a parking garage so the temperature is always safe, especially this time of year) and he hasn't thrown a fit despite me only able to dedicate 15 - 30 minutes every two hours to him while I work. He stays in a large travel crate in my car and he's been incredibly compliant beyond an occasional ten second groan when he realizes I am leaving again.

Anyway back on track, I'd like for him to learn early that dogs are not a big deal. They are not threats, they can be fun if I allow him to play, but for the most part they are just ok. His only interactions with dogs he had had since I got him have been the neighbor's dogs barking at him when we pass by their yards and my mom's dominant female giving him snarls and nips when he tries to play. She just has no patience or tolerance for pups and he outweighs her by 20lbs probably. He will be starting puppy classes on the 13th of this month, and while I am mainly going there so he will learn to listen even with distractions, I'd like for him to have at least a few positive interactions with other dogs. I hoped letting him tussle a little bit with other rowdy pups that are just as socially awkward might help calm his confrontational attitude towards other dogs a bit.

Once he gets a bit older, I planned on teaching him to ignore other dogs entirely unless I say its okay. Does this seem like a good plan to anyone else? Any thoughts at all would be welcome.

Overall, I'd say your best option would be to take him to those group training classes. I don't think that they will allow any informal play sessions or even brief meet & greets at the training classes. You never know, they might. You might find some of the class members who will let you have your Dobe meet their dog in the parking lot. Training classes, however, are for you to get your dog to ignore other dogs as much as possible (and for some dogs / Dobes, that can be extremely difficult!) My first Dobe, I trained completely myself. I checked out every relevant book I could get my hands on from the various libraries I could get to via my delivery job that took me to different towns. I would go to book stores and stand there and read the books. I got that Dobe into AKC obedience trials and took him up through the CDX level. He did know the UD routine as well but he hated the obedience ring so much that I retired him from competition. I would train him in the yard where I lived, and I would take him to as many different parks as I could get him to. I did, however, on a couple occasions take him to a group training class where I had pre-arranged that I did not want instruction. I only wanted to work my dog around the other dogs. I'm sure they only agreed to this because they knew me through the dog club. Otherwise they'd have been like: Who do you think you are?

I wouldn't be worried about your Dobe posturing dominantly from across the street or whatever at other dogs. This comes naturally, and does not mean that he would hurt the other dogs. I would not assign the word "bullying" to dogs. That is a bit too human.

As I alluded to, I was worried that my most recent Dobe would react fearfully to a loose dog running up to him unless I "socialized" him with other dogs. I chose to do this at the local dog park. It's not that he was a fearful dog. He was from proven working lines and had plenty of courage (thought I'd be lying if I said that when he was very young and we'd walk at night and he saw a person oncoming on the sidewalk he'd move somewhat behind me – something that concerned me greatly). So yeah, I took the risks of the dog park. In my experience, my Dobes have been very good at playing defense in scraps and they don't take damage. They play very roughly and even stray into the realm. of what I call "scrapping" and it makes other dog owners concerned oftentimes; but they never do damage to other dogs. So, I was equipped with this knowledge when I went to the dog park. Note: Your results may vary! But it's just what I have found with Dobermans. Now, this is not to say that your Dobe will never pick the wrong dog to posture with and that other dog will lay a real beating on your Dobe and could saddle you with vet bills. You have to know dog behavior and body language and assess situations. I remember one time there was a Pit Bull at the dog park – a tough looking male that was fairly dominant (as was mine Dobe). Once they finallly came face to face and it was getting all stiff I actually places a quick push kick to the Pit's hips that sent the dog spinning and he fell over. The Pit took it in stride. I was fortunate in that this didn't trigger the Pit to attack my dog or me; and I was also lucky that I didn't find that the Pit's owner was some 6' 5" 250 pound man who may not have taken kindly to me kicking his dog. So yeah, I took risks, but we socialize (or desensitized) my Dobe for just the cost of gasoline to drive him to the dog park and back. (Sometimes we'd actually literally run to the park and back together, but I found that after the run there he was less inclined to run around and play or do much.)

Anyway, just some thoughts for now.

 

[JanS]

I agree that group training classes are far better than exposing him to unruly dogs in a park. It will give him a chance to work around other dogs and know how to act around them but they don't need to play with each other. We will let our dogs play with our trainers dogs but that's strictly supervised and I know her dogs are well trained.

 

[Kswoodssue]

Our Sasha ignores other dogs because they are not a source of fun for her. Just something to pass on the street.

 

[Dasz88]

Good discussion here! I never took gilly to a dog park with other dogs; just too risky IMO for the amount of work I've put into him. But group dog classes are great!

There IS one way dog parks are good for us, though! I have an issue with Gilly peeing on things when he is supposed to be working. That is a nono! I've been taking him to different dog parks when no one else is there and hiding source for him to find so he is "working." There ARE SO MANY pee smells, it is very good distraction training! But I only do small dog parks where no one is there.

(That guy's balls were saved by this forum, so he can stay intact as long as he doesn't $!&×ing mark on the job!)

 

[Ravenbird]

(That guy's balls were saved by this forum, so he can stay intact as long as he doesn't $!&×ing mark on the job!)

You rock it @Dasz88 / Team Gilly!!!