Miller Dobes
Novitiate
In Texas they often say, "the proof is in the pudd'in." I wonder just how many whites or Z factored dogs that have achieved a performance titles of any kind. There are many dogs with faults according to the standard that have had performance titles but the question is why haven't more whites or Z factored dogs? Where are they?
Know the AKC has a website to look up dogs with Z factored or whites....and we know that the ethical and knowledgeable breeders of the past felt so passionately about excluding them they put a "Z" on their papers, but what else do we know for sure.
So if you support the breeding of Z factored dogs or whites, where are their titles? I think this is a fair questions.
The only place I have seen whites or Z factored dogs are in rescues, for sale by byb, or defended by those that breed them. Before I'm blasted, I do not discourage adopting rescues but I think this is something that would be educational.......and if you support them let's hear the proof.
Everyone knows I don't....
Becky
my first thought is gezzzzzzzzzz!.........followed by the fact that when I fell in love with dobermans I had NEVER even heard of the z factor. in fact I am pretty sure my last doberman probably was a z factor since the kennel he came from had a white. I had never seen one before. I know I worked with my dog and titled him in obedience......as I am sure many dog owners who had a z factor did also..........as I said.........back them hardly anyone even knew of a z factor.
now I can see people saying whites may have more health problems and such........but really! I doubt the z gene is going to make a dog unable to work as well as any other dobe. and I highly doubt you or anyone else could just pick out a z factor dog just by looking and interacting with the dog.
Back when I was a newbie to Dobermans, I bought a Z Doberman.I did know know what Z was either. I didn't title him but I could have in Schutzhund, he was amazing at it, but we weren't in it long. I had transportation problems, so now he is a lazy house pet
I just want to add........ the one breeding of one z factor dog into a pool of non z's and that makes all future pups z from that point on........ but 8 to 10 generations back one z should not effect the dogs working or showing if well bred to start with. it is just plain silly to think the z gene would be anything other then a gene. just like a gene for hair color lol!!!! do blondes really have more fun????? I can see the desire to stop producing white dobermans......but I can also see why some folks love them and want to keep them around. I do not believe the white doberman will ever be extinct! somewhere they have a place that loves them and wants them around ~smiles~ and all the poor z factor dogs well their owners love them too! and many of them are darn nice looking dogs. they just have that silly z gene following them around making life a bit harder and reducing thier sex life ha! none the less they are all doberman!
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have the actual factual stats on how many Z factored dobermans are registered, because they are registerable with the AKC, vs. dobermans being registered which don't have the Z factor in their pedigree?
MLR here is the z list http://whitedobes.doberinfo.com/zlist.html I was just looking for my old doberman lol!!!! since he came from lorinich kennel many many years ago. and lorinich has been a breeder of whites for like-----ever! but after searching my boy did not have the z gene. but that was just by luck since I am sure lorinich was trying to keep all the white genes she could ha! I still think that woman was pure evil! I was so happy to see her kennel raid on the news several months ago. I was one who didnt stand for her so called repo contract and fought her in court and won
sort of....lol!!! since it sure did cost me to hire my attorney 20 years ago lol!
also......show breeders wouldnt be caught dead handling -showing a z dog. no need since they wish they would just disapear! I cant think of anyone who breeds whites who also shows them. hmmmmmm maybe lorinich did back in the day. but probably in canada not really sure though. I would think there are many more non z dogs then z but I dont know really.
That list has not been updated since 2004.
(updated 6/2/04)
There sure aren't as many in the CKC (Canadian Kennel Club)
http://newsite.dpcc.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6&Itemid=7
good to know silent. is there a more current list? but really it isnt a true count as I am sure many of those dog listed are long gone by now.
I wonder if we could get the stats from akc? Thing is most dogs are never reported deceased to akc of any breed so it would not reflect the true number alive today. They may be able to give a # registered each year though.
It would be interesting to see what % of registries per year are z registered.
http://www.dpca.org/zlist.html
The lists contain the name, registration number, and color for every descendant of Rasputin VI and Dynamo Humm registered with the AKC. The lists include registrations through 12-31-07.
I did a brief reading of some of the information Zoorox posted and have another question. Does anyone know what is meant by phenotypically albinistic vs. phenotypically normal dogs carrying the albinistic gene (factored)???
phenotypically albinistic = dog is albino visibly
phenotypically normal dogs carrying the albinistic gene (factored)??? = white factored, but appears by phenotype to be colored
pheontype is what you see
genotype are the genes the dog has whether visibly expressed or not
a red dog for example is phenotypically red
but if it carries dilution its genotypically bbDd it takes 2 recessive genes for a reccessive to be expressed, a single dominate gene will prevent the reccessive from showing in pheotype
Good points guys. I'm sure there are some that have obedience or some performance titles. One website listed there were only four but I would think there were be a few more if it didn't effect intelligence and working ability. I really wonder about the statistics.
In people and other mammals, albinos are said to sometimes have problems with the liver, kidney, and other issues besides sight and skin. Lower intelligence was sited in one study. Albinoism is not just a color, it is a mutation in mammals. Studies in dobermans maybe limited but in mammals, the studies are numerous and clear enough not to want to risk breeding.
I know that when you have a rescue that it doesn't matter what it has- Z or otherwise. It's a doberman and you have to love them because they give their all to you. I understand and agree....but also think they should be fixed, as almost all rescue will be from a ethical group.
I just don't personally know the name of any with titles. Does anyone know?
Becky
Good for you! I read about that kennel and the cruelty that now prevents her from ever breeding again. It's a shame, as we are our dogs protector....they just pretent to be in certain circumstances. Glad you took those steps!
Becky
With only 1.8% of all non albino dobermans taking titles this really doesn't surprise me at all.
I wonder if anyone just knows of one that has a title. There is a black dobie at the training center where I train with a white spot on his chest. I think he is a rescue and fixed. I assume he is Z factored. They train at different times. I'll have to stay late and find out. He is a bit aggressive but is getting better. He has an owner that will go the mile with him.
Becky
hahahahahaha! funny story on that!!!! how I got to lorinich in the first place! I wanted to AVOID the evil BYB and went searching for what I thought was a real breeder ha! I recall driving up to her place and seeing the buildings behind the fence...I recall asking if I could take a look back there......no! she said because she had pups back there and she didnt want them exposed to stuff I might carry in. made sence to me! since I had a friend who didnt allow anyone inside when she had pups. anyhow.....I also paid a hefty price for back then 500. on a co-own.....with the opiton to buy outright for another 500 within a year.....I opted to buy him outright. she tried to take my dog back for breach of contract.I fought and paid over 1,000 to bring my lawyer to detroit ha! ontop of all the schooling that dog had he was by far the most expensive dog I ever had. but I was a lucky one....and too darn stubborn to ever return my dog to the likes of her. I would have put him down first. anyhow 20 years under the bridge.her daughter I am sure took over the kennel.......the dogs will still be bred. even after the raid I saw a doberman on the deck in a news clip! she was allowed to keep a few. she kept dobermans.
I dont think you will find many z factors in the show world. because that is a big no no! but I would imagine there are plenty in obedience and agility. stupid is as stupid does.......I am a silly fool who really believes any dog can learn! it just depends on who is training it! if a dog doesnt do something it is because it was not trained to do it. I do not believe a z gene makes the dobe any less smart. just most of them are not in homes that will take the time to train them to be more!
White on the chest is not related to being z factor they are entirely different genes. The white spots on an animal is the piebald gene.
Yea the white spot on a Dobermans chest has nothing to do with the Z gene, it is where the greyhound was introduced in the Doberman and sometimes a white spot on the chest or toes can be seen
OK, so what do all the other letters appearing after the W in a dogs pedigree mean? Like P, F. or S. The AKC information line was closed for the day so I couldn't ask them this question. Anyone know? I understand that a Z means Z factored. But what do the other letters stand for?
The first letter is the akc group, w= working group. The second letter runs in sequence. ie they used all the waxxxxx first then went to wbxxxxxx etc.
The last 2 numbers represent the pups place in the litter.
so......if the paper say's wz wouldnt the last numbers show how many z's where registered?
I'm just wondering, if the AKC registers Z factored dobes and they can compete in obedeance, who made it illegal to breed them, or is it illegal in the strictest sense of the word?
The last 2 #s would show the pups place in the litter. I have no idea if they started out with the first wz as wz0000000.
Before they designated wz there were dogs in the lines that had non z registration numbers before they started using wz. In fact if you look on the most recent wz list on the dpca website, #21, the first 2 numbers and names are not wz numbers. I'm not sure how old those are or why they appear on list 21 when it is solid wz for several previous lists. (#19, #20 etc.)
They can compete in anything but the conformation ring. The parent club considers it a disqualifying color so they can not compete in conformation which is to evaluate breeding stock.
It is not illegal, but it is not condoned or supported by the breed parent club. The dpca determined it to be a harmful gene. The white you see is not a color it is not on the loci that the color genes are on B for black b for red, it is a masking gene.
Back to the original question of achievements of white's; according to the link provided by Zoorox the following applies:
Kasper Blanco Schnepp CD, WP61614201, Male Doberman Pinscher, white, born 3/13/95
The Warriors Magic Crystal CD, WP32599306, Male Doberman Pinscher, white, born 12/11/90
Mousethatroared Von Ernest CD, WP49530405, Female Doberman Pinscher, white, born 6/14/93
Kathy Bates' Ice Phantom CD NAJ, WP69373608, Male Doberman Pinscher, white, born 4/7/96
My Fair Lady Lexus CDX, ILP99023, Female Doberman Pinscher, white, born ?
Lornich's Lunar Ice CD, WZ00200005, Female Doberman Pinscher, white, born 4/9/2001
Wisteria's Vanilla Frosting NJP, WZ00133704, Male Doberman Pinscher, white, born 2/5/2000
I know part of lorinich contract said must title the dog before age 2.........so I am sure several of hers have titles of some sort.
and another thing that gets me about the z list........is some of the pups born and put on that list probably dont even carry the white gene! but they are z forever....gene or not just because they MAY have the gene. stupid if you ask me.....you should be able to test for the gene and if your z dog doesnt have it they should be given the ok.
There is no test for it at this time. The z is to identify dogs that could carry the gene so that breeders can avoid it. If a test is found there will be dogs that are wz that do not carry the gene.
exactly.......so some are unfairly labled. I realize right now this is a eazy way to know what dogs might carry it. but just because they are z factored on the papers does not meen they do for sure carry the naughty white gene
You mean there's no test to prove any of this? Humph. If they can put a man on the moon, it would certainly seem some scientist would have come up with some sort of viable means of testing for this by now.
Very true however most breeders of titled dogs do avoid breeding to z dogs because the parent club says to. The result would be that the dogs used as breeding stock are probably not generally the highest quality.
some? hahahahahhaa I would say all titled dogs avoid the z's. I just think it is a bit unfair since probably half the z dogs dont even have the white gene
I can't say all because there may be someone who has performance titles who does not. I don't know everyone lol
I think you probably just have to dig around a bit. I found this quite easily:
http://www.geocities.com/dpaa_03/White_Doberman_With_Titles.html
true......I just think it is unfair to the z dogs who dont even have the gene. I recall years ago people who like me had no idea of z factor could make or dobe the best he or she could be. show if we wanted! whatever......can you imagine how pissed some poor folks where to discover their dog had a white or a z a few generations back.
Now, I'm not saying I necessarily agree or disagree with what I am about to say and ask, I just want to make that clear. I really do have concerns about all this. So here goes:
Because the parent club says so it's not right? And this is for the betterment of the breed? I want to understand this. I really do. Seems to me something is amiss here with this theory.
I have living proof that this isn't always the case. My male dobe's linage followed all the AKC standards as far back as I can see and yet he was born with the worst case of Von Willebrands desease my vet has ever encountered.
I believe this was brought up philosophically in another thread and I mean no disrespect to the AKC but, I really want to know: How are these guidelines against whites or any other thing which is faulted in the conformation ring doing anything to improve the breed except for appearance sake?
I totally agree MLR and I think it was proven that the White Dobes can be useful...thank you Emily for a great response!
I have said before, some of the worse things ever done to the breed were in the name of showing... showing is simply the "current fad" of the day...and if anyone watched Westminsters - the announcer old breeder/handler said it - the standard is only a "template" with room for interpretation....
AKC is only a registry they do not determine the standard for any breed, the indiviual breed club does. DPCA is the offical breed club for dobermans, they create the standard. The standard in any breed club is designed for the betterment of the breed per the breed clubs ideal of the perfect dog.
I am not a DPCA member and it is very doubtful I will ever be so beyond that I can not say.
My personal opinion is that sometimes in breeding for the perfect conformation other things are sacrificed be it health, longevity, temperament or in working breeds working ability. Ideally one breeds for the 'total' package but that is an elusive goal that is not as easy to reach.
I often hear that a dobe is a dobe is a dobe regardless of color, size, line etc. however if we breed dogs who are for example too large, the trade off may be a shorter lifespan, look at danes for example.
If we breed for only conformation with long graceful necks we *may* loose working ability or temperament. We say a dobe is a dobe because they act a certian way but if dogs are bred that do not, eventually the descendents slowly move further and further from what we recognize as unique dobe traits.
Titles are a way to evaluate a dog against the standard, the wae for temperament, working titles for working ability, conformation for type and performance titles for trainability and intellegence. Each evaluates a different aspect of the total doberman.
Breeding is a lot like work, if you do not breed towards a goal how do you know when your there? Any goal needs a plan to get there. Breeding for the total doberman so that our grandkids and great grandkids and their grandkids have the same quirky lovable dog that we have come to love, while hopefully improving the health and longevity.
But then what would I know I'm a novice.
I agree Silent - but I also think that AKC needs to take a stronger approach in their part in the dog world. I also think the breed clubs should insist that show dogs be tested prior to showing.... "they" say it can't be done, basically because some testing has to be done after the age of two - but is that a bad thing? A dog that is mature that shows you what it will be? We're breeding unhealthy dogs - that is a fact. Most of the unhealthy dogs had their start in show homes - that is a fact as well.
I know it would cut down on the amount of dogs in the ring if health testing was required...before they hit the ring... doesn't it make sense - healthy from the inside out?
jstlovesdobes~
Amen to what you said.
Silent~
Then it's the DPCA who sets the standards for the breed not the AKC? And the Great Apes are disappearing from the planet as we speak. Yea, boy. Someone needs to take a good long look at the grand scheme of things in this universe.
Since the doberman is a totally man created breed reletively new to the sceene, I think we can do a better job of setting these goals than what is currently in place. Just my opinion. Who do we write to to set this in motion??
oooooo I so agree the show dogs should be tested before the ring for health.
and I also agree that we should try to keep the dobe looking like a dobe. but as I have said many times before.......the look of a show dobe today.....is not the look I recall years ago. I will have to dig out some old show pictures if I can locate them.
I do know my zoo boy is all show and a beautiful boy! but he is more narrow then I recall my old male. now rescue chance is not built like zoo.......he lacks the deep chest. but I like his tail set better..... but all 3 of my dobes look and act like a dobe. but they do have different looks to them......zoo is american show-roxie I am told has euro showlines and rescue chance is anyones guess.
I often think about all the dogs in rescue....I cant help but to think since these dogs are picked up on the streets beaten and starved.....they could come from anywhere! just because they are down and out doesnt meen they started life from a byb or a puppy mill. some probably are the sons and daughters of champions! I think all pups should be micro chipped now that it can be done.
Most responsible breeders require by contract the pup be returned if it must be rehomed. They try to keep up with the homes and some require they be notified of changes of address or phone but the puppy owner has to do their part too.
There is a variance in show dogs, each judge is a person who has their own preferance and their own opinion of which faults are worse than others. It can also vary by area. A judges job is to choose the best example of the written standard that is present at that time in the ring but they all have opinions.
Some breeders will see what is winning and breed towards that preferance, some hand pick who they show under to choose shows where the judge is known to put up that style of dog.
I have never shown in conformation, my male is a euro/american show line cross and my female is all american.
I wish show people would speak up here who have more experience than I do and correct anything I may be wrong on.
I also have to agree with you on the chip. While there is some risk to it, there is risk in crossing the street or driving to the store with your dog in tow. I am not a breeder but if I ever did breed I would absolutely have them chipped before they left my house. As if I would let any leave LOL!
What is the address or email address for the DPCA? Anyone know?
http://www.dpca.org/
There is a physical address as well as email contact address on that page.
Conformation can be done to show breed type before the dog is old enough to breed. A responsible breeder will not breed a dog that fails the health testing even if they have a Ch. title already. As I have said before not all Ch. dogs should be bred. I don't feel they have to be tested prior to obtaining a conformation title, but that title is also not a free ticket to breed regardless of health. I do feel the health testing should be done prior to breeding.
Great. Thanks for the web site Silent.
Yes each breed has a club that is the controlling body for the breed, the akc is a registry.
The DPCA sets the standard the AKC makes the rules for the show ring
If I remember correctly Zoo is still young? Dobes are a slow maturing breed and don't seem to fill out until 2-3 years old especially males.
as far as rescues being from show breeders I find that highly unlikely - Look at the available dogs at IDR they are all BYB looking (but beautiful as all dobes are)
yes zoo is only a year......but I just dont think he is ever going to get to be the dobes I recall from 20 years ago. he is beautiful! just not what I remember.....as far as the dogs that wind up in shealters and rescues....well... some of them look pretty darn good.not all.......but there are pets in every litter. I just think all litters should be chipped. that would answer as to where the dog started out and where they end up. chance almost got to go to IDR have you seen the english bulldog they got in? dagwood?
Zoorox is right. Drug dealers, for instance, can afford top of the line dobermans when they are flush. It's an entirely different story when the police raid their premises and confiscate their prize pets along with anything else of value as part of state and federal sezure laws. Then what does law enforcement do with the dobermans? That's right, they go to local shelters. It can and does happen more than you think.
Even a poorly bred dobe looks good (granted some better than others) I'm not familar with Dagwood but a lot of bulldogs seem to go through IDR
I would think drug dealers are getting there dogs from commercial kennels like K-tal, House of Hoytt ect than from a reputable show or working breeder that screens puppy buyers. Expensive doesn't mean quality. Neither does looking good it's hard for any dobe to look bad
IDR just placed 12 dogs confiscated in Chicago over Christmas none of them were well bred but they were beautiful.
We had two dobes in our local shelter from a drug raid in the next town over a few years ago when I was looking for a companion for my male. The breeder was notified but wouldn't touch them because of they way they had been trained to protect their owner. These were beutiful dogs, too, but they ended up being put to sleep as soon as the drug case went to trial and the forfeiture proceedings were complete because they were one owner dogs and nobody could get near them.
That is not a good breeder in my opinion - To me a good breeder would prevent their pups getting into that situation to begin with - but if it did would take the dogs and euth them themselves - Breeders need to be responsible for all puppies they produce for the life of the dog
I agree in an ideal world that would be the way it should happen. It's not my place to judge others though. I don't think any of us knows for sure what we would do in a given situation until presented with it personally. And I've found in the long run that judgement is best reserved for the man upstairs.
Not judging anyone really just stating what I consider a responsible breeder to be and if ever I buy a doberman rather than rescue (highly unlikely) - what I would look for in a breeder.
Not sure we need to bring the man upstairs into a doberman forum at least not on my account Thanks though
I was referring to my personal beliefs, not inferring anything about anyone in particular. Sorry for not stating that more clearly.
You are so right! Things happen and when they do we protect them, take them back, learn, and make it better. This is why visiting their home is so important before the dogs are placed and I'm sure why most ethical rescues do that too.
And thank you silent for bringing lots of facts to the forum.
Is this ALL the whites that have titles?
Becky
I wanted to also make it clear that the people that belong to dpca are very dedicated to the breed. There can be good and bad in any group, but usually they hang themselves. The doberman clubs do have rules. They show their dogs to compare them to other dogs. They test their dogs to make sure they are healthy and they give you information on that testing. They check out the homes. There are a lot of the best in that group and I know a few. I do not belong to the group but I respect what they are doing as a group and the breed. They are a group of owners that may or may breed dogs, but they spend a lot of time trying to protect the breed. :SwinginStar:
I appreciate the list of Z or albino dogs that have titles. I'm surprised there were that many. I have yet to see an albino that could compete in the confirmation ring, even if they were not disqualified.
Z factored may not carry the gene, but I assume the lack of quality to the standard would be lacking because of the dogs they came out of. If you're not breeding the dog, being Z factor doesn't matter. So they are labeled "z" factored. Since there is no gene to identify it, how else would you be sure. I personally, am glad to know if there is even a chance of that. It is known they came out of that or they wouldn't be on the list. It doesn't mean they can't be your pet.
Becky
Just a thought,I don't think just because someone is able to breed great dobermans automatically means that person is an ethical person and won't be motivated by profit more than morals.My opinion is that great dogs do end up in rescue situations,probably not as often as byb or puppymill dogs but I'm not sure all breeders care as much about their nonshowquality puppies or are as vigilant about where they end up.
I totally agree.
Most I think do worry about the pet puppies because their reputation within the breed is based in part on how they handle every puppy they breed.
Now that they have proved that Z factored dogs are valuble members of families, and are able to compete and hold titles in competitions maybe we can change the subject...
What do you say....
This thread has been educational and has kept the question in the thread.
Very true silent, and it sure has proved that Z factored dogs have many accomplishments... Thanks
I believe there are many more z's working with titles......but that is just a guess.
I do know that many many many z dogs are great family pets and that alone is a wonderful title. it seems the z dogs are moslty only loved by families that just want to love them. working dogs work-show dogs show-and z's take their zzzzzzzzzzzz's on thier owners lap
Well if we think about it.... how many of us would be here on this forum today if all dobies cost over $1000. Not many! How many dobies have blessed the world and the people they met regardless of there color or background....
Just because a dog is not titled does not mean he/she can not be, it just means that his owners have not taken the time to train for competition. Not the dogs fault...
We have all seen great dogs sent off to rescues not because of the dog, but because the owner can not or do not take the time to train and handle them.
Maybe we should work more toward informing owners of all the amazing things the AKC has to offer rather then blamming the dogs themselves...
Personally I am more worried about the health and the health history of the lines and that the dogs do have the intellegence, trainability and conformation I like than I am worried about titles. Titles are a way of evaluating all of those things.
We all love our pets, I personally want to know mine came from long lived lines and has a good chance at also being around to hog my bed a long time. To me health and longevity are the most important things, but I also want a dobe that will have the temperament, trainability and look I expect in a dobe. Since my dogs are chosen to be service dogs and it is far from cheap to train one, an expected long working life is vital.
True enough Zoo. My head is still swimming from scrolling through all the lists of whites which you and Silent posted the other day; there must be several hundred thousand Z factored dobes out there. I doubt this matter will be resolved in our lifetime or the next generation either. Sooner or later the DPCA will catch up with the times, or not. I didn't know a thing about this when I bought Chloe. It wouldn't have mattered to me one way or the other if I had. Unless your showing a dobe for confirmation none of this matters. I doubt anyone could legally take out an ad to promote operation white-out in this day and age and get away with it without being sued by some law firm somewhere for discrimination anyway. So the whole point is moot in my opinion.
Before anyone jumps in here and decries what I have just said, I want to make it clear that I'm not advocating for or against this issue. I'm just stating the facts as I see them.
Dela, there have been very few compared to those that are not Z factored. Let's be clear. While they have had titles, few have advanced titles and far fewer titles than those dogs that aren't Z. Did you see the Z list. This is a very very small % of those dogs. In addition, even fewer Z factored have championship titles and no albino dogs, as they are disqualified.
Thanks for letting me know about the titles and we congraduate all those dogs....and their owners.
Becky
I can't wade all the way through this thread, but I personally know of a few albino Dobes with performance titles - every single one of them is a rescue.
Thanks velma, thats great to know...
Wow velma...just checked out your site... very nice...
I wouldn't consider a Z factored dog obtaining a CGC and a TDI (which are not titles, in actuality, but certificates) to be a claim that Z factored dobermans do have titles.
There is at least one additional albino doberman with a title - again, a rescue - one living in my house, who has a CD, RA, (and yes, a CGC), and will soon also have his agility titles, an RL1, and a CD-H, as well as his CDX.
The only albino in the history of the breed to attain ANY advanced title at all has been Lexus - also a rescue, and also adopted through the same rescue as Mercury, the one that lives with me.
A long time ago Ione made an offer to pay money to the first owner of an albino doberman to put an advanced title on a dog - and Rhonda did it first. I believe she's put up more money for more advanced titles. Show me the albino breeders out there working their dogs and tell them to put their money where their mouths are. My best friend has had to work her ass off to get this dog where he is - and it has not been easy. He's far from breed worthy, but he's a nice dog in his own way - but he has his own issues. Yet he is still certainly showing up most of the other albino dobes out there, that's for sure!
Yes, and I am all for rescues!
becky
My hats off to you and your dog and this valuable post.
Becky
I've had the pleasure of meeting both of the Albino's Kim mentions in this post. Rhonda has adopted at least two Albinos and I've talked to her several times about the work that went into training her dogs - she also trains and competes with Corgis. Rhonda has told me that she cannot normally show her albino outdoors due to bright sunlight making her almost blind. I got to meet Kim's roommates Albino boy "Mercury" about 1 1/2 years ago and I know that they have done a great job with him. These dogs were all really damn lucky to end up in the rescue homes they are in.
This is an older thread (sorry I am just now seeing it) but i wanted to reply......
A friend of mine (who shall remain nameless) has a gorgeous white male (now neutered) from her own breeding that she trained and worked with herself in Schutzhund. When she decided to go to a club and get some professional help and possibly titled the dog, she was told in no uncertain terms she would never get a white dog titled in schutzhund and to go home.
I have another acquaintance that has owned and bred WZ dogs but she keeps her involvement with the whites undercover so to speak for fear of repercusions in her working dog club.
I had a WZ blue female years ago that I wanted to get into obedience with but when the trainer I was talking to found out she was WZ factored (had two whites in her pedigree 7 GENERATIONS back) i never heard from her again......
I know breeders that have tried showing their wz dogs and where harassed and bullied at the shows (people running up on their dogs in the go arounds, making rude comments on the side lines, bringing the fact the dog is WZ factored tot he attention of judges.)
People will say it doesn't happen but it does. .
Again, if the breeders of WZ's are so proud of what they are producing and stand behind their so called ethics, what others think should not bother them. If it does, then they obviously do not, whole heartedly, believe what they are doing is right. (???) I personally have never seen an Exhibitor walk up to a judge before or during a class in either AKC or UKC.
As far as running up on another dog...I've seen it happen, in AKC & UKC with many different breeds.
Hello this my first day post here. I just changed over from a different Doberman chat. You guys can guess which on that was. I was tired of being abused because of my white dobe. I was attack an gained up on just because I refused to call my dog an albino dobe! But I won't get into all the details. But my question is can there be a white dobe then can come out with exceptional genes (making it better then regular excepted color dobe)to be a working dog? An has there ever been a white dobe with a sch title? I know that no all dogs have the ability to be working dogs this why I say better then. But I'm not claiming my dog to be bettern the Anyone's dog. Thx
All white dobermans are at least considered partial albino. Here's some good info to read on the topic: http://dpca.org/albino/albino_about.htm
Now on working, I'm not sure if they are even allowed? I will let someone else like Dobs4Ever answer that as she is much more knowledgeable on the subject than me. I wouldn't look into getting an albino for the sole purpose of titling it as they come with health problems and shouldn't be bred, purchasing one is supporting the breeder that bred them. They can be sensitive to light, easily susceptible to skin cancer due to lack of pigment and often have poor temperament... all of these things are very important in a working Dobe and can interfere with it's job.
On the other hand, there are many canine sports you could enter instead but again, you would have to take in consideration of any health issues that may interfere with the happiness and health of your dog.
She has no other issues like people claim whites (albino)have. I was just asking when she competes if she gets titled would she be the first one or there been other.
There has never been a white (albino) Doberman title in much of anything. First they are banned by the DPCA and are supposed to only be on limited reg and never bred. AKC agreed and implemented the Wz registration to identify the gene pool.
It would be very hard for them to make ti to Sch I even as they have to work in the sunlight for tracking, obedience and protection which is very difficult for them not to mention the possible temperament issues which are greater that the albino popultion.
I am not sure any of the working clubs would even reg one to show as it is a genetic defect that has serious health concerns and since their object is to promote good health they would not approve of an genetic defect being promoted.
Correct me im wrong here. I know conformation is evaluation of breeding stock. Couldn't schutzhound, and obedience also be considered the same. Your working to title your dog and show that animal has a great working drive. If health and color don't fit in wouldn't that defeat the purpose of getting the title in the first place.
Whitedobe - I am sure you love your dog and that is awesome. But what are you wanting to acoomplish if you succeed in titling her??? Does she have her BH???
My accomplishement are personal gradification for the hard we've done. If you are asking if intend to breed the answer is no. Like in my introduction post I said she was spayed. Hear in Florida it gets to hot to compete during summer. Last competion was in November an jan an she was to young. She is only a year an 5 month. She has no bh but she does have a akc good k9 award, which I know is not a big deal. She got that when she was 6 month. I can almost guarantee a bh with her her sch 1 title will be a challenge but I feel we will get it.
Good luck to you! Don't feel like getting in an argument on a Friday.
Whitedobe - I know it is confusing and since you are new to the breed it is probably a little overwhelming and then with all that has gone before it tends to put one on the defensive.
As to the black Z factored - they are not glaringly obvious and with an ILP or Pal # and spay/neuter requirement they often go unnoticed by the unscrupulous Albino breeders if they did manage to title one. Anyone would immediately see that the dog was albino and it would take about 3 seconds for it to go viral and then the unscrupulos albiono breeders are off and running about how great albinoism is and how it is not true albino and all their other deliusionary stuff. Fact is they are banned by their own breed club and AKC from showing and competeing in the breed ring. They are disallowed by their own standard which only calls for 4 approved colors.
As we see there is always those who do not care about the standard and feel they should have the right to do their own thing even if it destroys the breed. While I know you love your girl you are finding that there are problems being accepted in regular Doberman circles.
Yes I read where your girl was spayed and that is a good thing. But it would be a very bad thing for the standard and the breed. You have some hard decisions. Do you have a scorebook yet. I know you will not be allowed to obtain one through UDC anbd without a scorebook you can't show period. You do have to have a BH before you can pursue anything else in Schutzhund.
I'm not trying to pick on you but I cannot allow false information out there without a counter, as well. I hope you understand that.
[quote="
And that is why Whitedobe will continue to receive a less than thrilled reaction from people in the Doberman world. It is great that you are training your dog but you have to realize the greater implications that come with titling your dog. Those out there that are breeding these albinos and confusing people like you about their health, genetics, etc. will use your dog as an example of how great these dogs can be without acknowledging the health problems she will face in the future or that her temperament is the exception not the rule with the albinos.
I'm not trying to pick on you but I cannot allow false information out there without a counter, as well. I hope you understand that.[/quote]
This is what I was trying to say WhiteDobe. I have no problem with you loving your dobe, and training him. With that said titling your dog is just adding to the problem. BYB's will find any excuse they can to do something and latch on, when they found out an albino was titled it would be fuel to an ongoing fire.
What exactly is in a title though? Your doberkid may not have problems with the sun yet, so go out there and do bite work. The health issues unfortunatly will come, so if your pup loves this sport do it now while you have a chance. Just be careful these are not intermittent health issues with z factored dobermans they show up eventually with or without you noticing.
If you are deadseat on getting the titles, it may be time to look at reputable breeders for a working dog.
I hope you do not think we are "bashing" you. I think you might have gotten some mis-leading information, and we hope to help you out.
Z-factored dobies are a huge problem, and that is not just the whites. The whites need love to, but spaying and neutering needs to be the answer in EVERY z-factored dobe. Especially the black/red since it is not easily noticable. Z dobies still need love, and im glad he has you to give that to him. This can be a touchy subject because of how huge of a problem it is in the doberman world.
Know the AKC has a website to look up dogs with Z factored or whites....and we know that the ethical and knowledgeable breeders of the past felt so passionately about excluding them they put a "Z" on their papers, but what else do we know for sure.
So if you support the breeding of Z factored dogs or whites, where are their titles? I think this is a fair questions.
The only place I have seen whites or Z factored dogs are in rescues, for sale by byb, or defended by those that breed them. Before I'm blasted, I do not discourage adopting rescues but I think this is something that would be educational.......and if you support them let's hear the proof.
Everyone knows I don't....
Becky
my first thought is gezzzzzzzzzz!.........followed by the fact that when I fell in love with dobermans I had NEVER even heard of the z factor. in fact I am pretty sure my last doberman probably was a z factor since the kennel he came from had a white. I had never seen one before. I know I worked with my dog and titled him in obedience......as I am sure many dog owners who had a z factor did also..........as I said.........back them hardly anyone even knew of a z factor.
now I can see people saying whites may have more health problems and such........but really! I doubt the z gene is going to make a dog unable to work as well as any other dobe. and I highly doubt you or anyone else could just pick out a z factor dog just by looking and interacting with the dog.
Back when I was a newbie to Dobermans, I bought a Z Doberman.I did know know what Z was either. I didn't title him but I could have in Schutzhund, he was amazing at it, but we weren't in it long. I had transportation problems, so now he is a lazy house pet
I just want to add........ the one breeding of one z factor dog into a pool of non z's and that makes all future pups z from that point on........ but 8 to 10 generations back one z should not effect the dogs working or showing if well bred to start with. it is just plain silly to think the z gene would be anything other then a gene. just like a gene for hair color lol!!!! do blondes really have more fun????? I can see the desire to stop producing white dobermans......but I can also see why some folks love them and want to keep them around. I do not believe the white doberman will ever be extinct! somewhere they have a place that loves them and wants them around ~smiles~ and all the poor z factor dogs well their owners love them too! and many of them are darn nice looking dogs. they just have that silly z gene following them around making life a bit harder and reducing thier sex life ha! none the less they are all doberman!
Just out of curiosity, does anyone have the actual factual stats on how many Z factored dobermans are registered, because they are registerable with the AKC, vs. dobermans being registered which don't have the Z factor in their pedigree?
MLR here is the z list http://whitedobes.doberinfo.com/zlist.html I was just looking for my old doberman lol!!!! since he came from lorinich kennel many many years ago. and lorinich has been a breeder of whites for like-----ever! but after searching my boy did not have the z gene. but that was just by luck since I am sure lorinich was trying to keep all the white genes she could ha! I still think that woman was pure evil! I was so happy to see her kennel raid on the news several months ago. I was one who didnt stand for her so called repo contract and fought her in court and won
sort of....lol!!! since it sure did cost me to hire my attorney 20 years ago lol!also......show breeders wouldnt be caught dead handling -showing a z dog. no need since they wish they would just disapear! I cant think of anyone who breeds whites who also shows them. hmmmmmm maybe lorinich did back in the day. but probably in canada not really sure though. I would think there are many more non z dogs then z but I dont know really.
That list has not been updated since 2004.
(updated 6/2/04)
There sure aren't as many in the CKC (Canadian Kennel Club)
http://newsite.dpcc.ca/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=6&Itemid=7
good to know silent. is there a more current list? but really it isnt a true count as I am sure many of those dog listed are long gone by now.
I wonder if we could get the stats from akc? Thing is most dogs are never reported deceased to akc of any breed so it would not reflect the true number alive today. They may be able to give a # registered each year though.
It would be interesting to see what % of registries per year are z registered.
http://www.dpca.org/zlist.html
The lists contain the name, registration number, and color for every descendant of Rasputin VI and Dynamo Humm registered with the AKC. The lists include registrations through 12-31-07.
I did a brief reading of some of the information Zoorox posted and have another question. Does anyone know what is meant by phenotypically albinistic vs. phenotypically normal dogs carrying the albinistic gene (factored)???
phenotypically albinistic = dog is albino visibly
phenotypically normal dogs carrying the albinistic gene (factored)??? = white factored, but appears by phenotype to be colored
pheontype is what you see
genotype are the genes the dog has whether visibly expressed or not
a red dog for example is phenotypically red
but if it carries dilution its genotypically bbDd it takes 2 recessive genes for a reccessive to be expressed, a single dominate gene will prevent the reccessive from showing in pheotype
Good points guys. I'm sure there are some that have obedience or some performance titles. One website listed there were only four but I would think there were be a few more if it didn't effect intelligence and working ability. I really wonder about the statistics.
In people and other mammals, albinos are said to sometimes have problems with the liver, kidney, and other issues besides sight and skin. Lower intelligence was sited in one study. Albinoism is not just a color, it is a mutation in mammals. Studies in dobermans maybe limited but in mammals, the studies are numerous and clear enough not to want to risk breeding.
I know that when you have a rescue that it doesn't matter what it has- Z or otherwise. It's a doberman and you have to love them because they give their all to you. I understand and agree....but also think they should be fixed, as almost all rescue will be from a ethical group.
I just don't personally know the name of any with titles. Does anyone know?
Becky
MLR here is the z list http://whitedobes.doberinfo.com/zlist.html I was just looking for my old doberman lol!!!! since he came from lorinich kennel many many years ago. and lorinich has been a breeder of whites for like-----ever! but after searching my boy did not have the z gene. but that was just by luck since I am sure lorinich was trying to keep all the white genes she could ha! I still think that woman was pure evil! I was so happy to see her kennel raid on the news several months ago. I was one who didnt stand for her so called repo contract and fought her in court and won
Good for you! I read about that kennel and the cruelty that now prevents her from ever breeding again. It's a shame, as we are our dogs protector....they just pretent to be in certain circumstances. Glad you took those steps!
Becky
With only 1.8% of all non albino dobermans taking titles this really doesn't surprise me at all.
I wonder if anyone just knows of one that has a title. There is a black dobie at the training center where I train with a white spot on his chest. I think he is a rescue and fixed. I assume he is Z factored. They train at different times. I'll have to stay late and find out. He is a bit aggressive but is getting better. He has an owner that will go the mile with him.
Becky
hahahahahaha! funny story on that!!!! how I got to lorinich in the first place! I wanted to AVOID the evil BYB and went searching for what I thought was a real breeder ha! I recall driving up to her place and seeing the buildings behind the fence...I recall asking if I could take a look back there......no! she said because she had pups back there and she didnt want them exposed to stuff I might carry in. made sence to me! since I had a friend who didnt allow anyone inside when she had pups. anyhow.....I also paid a hefty price for back then 500. on a co-own.....with the opiton to buy outright for another 500 within a year.....I opted to buy him outright. she tried to take my dog back for breach of contract.I fought and paid over 1,000 to bring my lawyer to detroit ha! ontop of all the schooling that dog had he was by far the most expensive dog I ever had. but I was a lucky one....and too darn stubborn to ever return my dog to the likes of her. I would have put him down first. anyhow 20 years under the bridge.her daughter I am sure took over the kennel.......the dogs will still be bred. even after the raid I saw a doberman on the deck in a news clip! she was allowed to keep a few. she kept dobermans.
I dont think you will find many z factors in the show world. because that is a big no no! but I would imagine there are plenty in obedience and agility. stupid is as stupid does.......I am a silly fool who really believes any dog can learn! it just depends on who is training it! if a dog doesnt do something it is because it was not trained to do it. I do not believe a z gene makes the dobe any less smart. just most of them are not in homes that will take the time to train them to be more!
White on the chest is not related to being z factor they are entirely different genes. The white spots on an animal is the piebald gene.
Yea the white spot on a Dobermans chest has nothing to do with the Z gene, it is where the greyhound was introduced in the Doberman and sometimes a white spot on the chest or toes can be seen
OK, so what do all the other letters appearing after the W in a dogs pedigree mean? Like P, F. or S. The AKC information line was closed for the day so I couldn't ask them this question. Anyone know? I understand that a Z means Z factored. But what do the other letters stand for?
The first letter is the akc group, w= working group. The second letter runs in sequence. ie they used all the waxxxxx first then went to wbxxxxxx etc.
The last 2 numbers represent the pups place in the litter.
so......if the paper say's wz wouldnt the last numbers show how many z's where registered?
I'm just wondering, if the AKC registers Z factored dobes and they can compete in obedeance, who made it illegal to breed them, or is it illegal in the strictest sense of the word?
The last 2 #s would show the pups place in the litter. I have no idea if they started out with the first wz as wz0000000.
Before they designated wz there were dogs in the lines that had non z registration numbers before they started using wz. In fact if you look on the most recent wz list on the dpca website, #21, the first 2 numbers and names are not wz numbers. I'm not sure how old those are or why they appear on list 21 when it is solid wz for several previous lists. (#19, #20 etc.)
They can compete in anything but the conformation ring. The parent club considers it a disqualifying color so they can not compete in conformation which is to evaluate breeding stock.
It is not illegal, but it is not condoned or supported by the breed parent club. The dpca determined it to be a harmful gene. The white you see is not a color it is not on the loci that the color genes are on B for black b for red, it is a masking gene.
Back to the original question of achievements of white's; according to the link provided by Zoorox the following applies:
Kasper Blanco Schnepp CD, WP61614201, Male Doberman Pinscher, white, born 3/13/95
The Warriors Magic Crystal CD, WP32599306, Male Doberman Pinscher, white, born 12/11/90
Mousethatroared Von Ernest CD, WP49530405, Female Doberman Pinscher, white, born 6/14/93
Kathy Bates' Ice Phantom CD NAJ, WP69373608, Male Doberman Pinscher, white, born 4/7/96
My Fair Lady Lexus CDX, ILP99023, Female Doberman Pinscher, white, born ?
Lornich's Lunar Ice CD, WZ00200005, Female Doberman Pinscher, white, born 4/9/2001
Wisteria's Vanilla Frosting NJP, WZ00133704, Male Doberman Pinscher, white, born 2/5/2000
I know part of lorinich contract said must title the dog before age 2.........so I am sure several of hers have titles of some sort.
and another thing that gets me about the z list........is some of the pups born and put on that list probably dont even carry the white gene! but they are z forever....gene or not just because they MAY have the gene. stupid if you ask me.....you should be able to test for the gene and if your z dog doesnt have it they should be given the ok.
There is no test for it at this time. The z is to identify dogs that could carry the gene so that breeders can avoid it. If a test is found there will be dogs that are wz that do not carry the gene.
exactly.......so some are unfairly labled. I realize right now this is a eazy way to know what dogs might carry it. but just because they are z factored on the papers does not meen they do for sure carry the naughty white gene
You mean there's no test to prove any of this? Humph. If they can put a man on the moon, it would certainly seem some scientist would have come up with some sort of viable means of testing for this by now.
Very true however most breeders of titled dogs do avoid breeding to z dogs because the parent club says to. The result would be that the dogs used as breeding stock are probably not generally the highest quality.
some? hahahahahhaa I would say all titled dogs avoid the z's. I just think it is a bit unfair since probably half the z dogs dont even have the white gene
I can't say all because there may be someone who has performance titles who does not. I don't know everyone lol
I think you probably just have to dig around a bit. I found this quite easily:
http://www.geocities.com/dpaa_03/White_Doberman_With_Titles.html
true
......I just think it is unfair to the z dogs who dont even have the gene. I recall years ago people who like me had no idea of z factor could make or dobe the best he or she could be. show if we wanted! whatever......can you imagine how pissed some poor folks where to discover their dog had a white or a z a few generations back.Now, I'm not saying I necessarily agree or disagree with what I am about to say and ask, I just want to make that clear. I really do have concerns about all this. So here goes:
Because the parent club says so it's not right? And this is for the betterment of the breed? I want to understand this. I really do. Seems to me something is amiss here with this theory.
I have living proof that this isn't always the case. My male dobe's linage followed all the AKC standards as far back as I can see and yet he was born with the worst case of Von Willebrands desease my vet has ever encountered.
I believe this was brought up philosophically in another thread and I mean no disrespect to the AKC but, I really want to know: How are these guidelines against whites or any other thing which is faulted in the conformation ring doing anything to improve the breed except for appearance sake?
I totally agree MLR and I think it was proven that the White Dobes can be useful...thank you Emily for a great response!
I have said before, some of the worse things ever done to the breed were in the name of showing... showing is simply the "current fad" of the day...and if anyone watched Westminsters - the announcer old breeder/handler said it - the standard is only a "template" with room for interpretation....
AKC is only a registry they do not determine the standard for any breed, the indiviual breed club does. DPCA is the offical breed club for dobermans, they create the standard. The standard in any breed club is designed for the betterment of the breed per the breed clubs ideal of the perfect dog.
I am not a DPCA member and it is very doubtful I will ever be so beyond that I can not say.
My personal opinion is that sometimes in breeding for the perfect conformation other things are sacrificed be it health, longevity, temperament or in working breeds working ability. Ideally one breeds for the 'total' package but that is an elusive goal that is not as easy to reach.
I often hear that a dobe is a dobe is a dobe regardless of color, size, line etc. however if we breed dogs who are for example too large, the trade off may be a shorter lifespan, look at danes for example.
If we breed for only conformation with long graceful necks we *may* loose working ability or temperament. We say a dobe is a dobe because they act a certian way but if dogs are bred that do not, eventually the descendents slowly move further and further from what we recognize as unique dobe traits.
Titles are a way to evaluate a dog against the standard, the wae for temperament, working titles for working ability, conformation for type and performance titles for trainability and intellegence. Each evaluates a different aspect of the total doberman.
Breeding is a lot like work, if you do not breed towards a goal how do you know when your there? Any goal needs a plan to get there. Breeding for the total doberman so that our grandkids and great grandkids and their grandkids have the same quirky lovable dog that we have come to love, while hopefully improving the health and longevity.
But then what would I know I'm a novice.
I agree Silent - but I also think that AKC needs to take a stronger approach in their part in the dog world. I also think the breed clubs should insist that show dogs be tested prior to showing.... "they" say it can't be done, basically because some testing has to be done after the age of two - but is that a bad thing? A dog that is mature that shows you what it will be? We're breeding unhealthy dogs - that is a fact. Most of the unhealthy dogs had their start in show homes - that is a fact as well.
I know it would cut down on the amount of dogs in the ring if health testing was required...before they hit the ring... doesn't it make sense - healthy from the inside out?
jstlovesdobes~
Amen to what you said.
Silent~
Then it's the DPCA who sets the standards for the breed not the AKC? And the Great Apes are disappearing from the planet as we speak. Yea, boy. Someone needs to take a good long look at the grand scheme of things in this universe.
Since the doberman is a totally man created breed reletively new to the sceene, I think we can do a better job of setting these goals than what is currently in place. Just my opinion. Who do we write to to set this in motion??
oooooo I so agree the show dogs should be tested before the ring for health.
and I also agree that we should try to keep the dobe looking like a dobe. but as I have said many times before.......the look of a show dobe today.....is not the look I recall years ago. I will have to dig out some old show pictures if I can locate them.
I do know my zoo boy is all show and a beautiful boy! but he is more narrow then I recall my old male. now rescue chance is not built like zoo.......he lacks the deep chest. but I like his tail set better..... but all 3 of my dobes look and act like a dobe. but they do have different looks to them......zoo is american show-roxie I am told has euro showlines and rescue chance is anyones guess.
I often think about all the dogs in rescue....I cant help but to think since these dogs are picked up on the streets beaten and starved.....they could come from anywhere! just because they are down and out doesnt meen they started life from a byb or a puppy mill. some probably are the sons and daughters of champions! I think all pups should be micro chipped now that it can be done.
Most responsible breeders require by contract the pup be returned if it must be rehomed. They try to keep up with the homes and some require they be notified of changes of address or phone but the puppy owner has to do their part too.
There is a variance in show dogs, each judge is a person who has their own preferance and their own opinion of which faults are worse than others. It can also vary by area. A judges job is to choose the best example of the written standard that is present at that time in the ring but they all have opinions.
Some breeders will see what is winning and breed towards that preferance, some hand pick who they show under to choose shows where the judge is known to put up that style of dog.
I have never shown in conformation, my male is a euro/american show line cross and my female is all american.
I wish show people would speak up here who have more experience than I do and correct anything I may be wrong on.
I also have to agree with you on the chip. While there is some risk to it, there is risk in crossing the street or driving to the store with your dog in tow. I am not a breeder but if I ever did breed I would absolutely have them chipped before they left my house. As if I would let any leave LOL!
What is the address or email address for the DPCA? Anyone know?
http://www.dpca.org/
There is a physical address as well as email contact address on that page.
Conformation can be done to show breed type before the dog is old enough to breed. A responsible breeder will not breed a dog that fails the health testing even if they have a Ch. title already. As I have said before not all Ch. dogs should be bred. I don't feel they have to be tested prior to obtaining a conformation title, but that title is also not a free ticket to breed regardless of health. I do feel the health testing should be done prior to breeding.
Great. Thanks for the web site Silent.
Yes each breed has a club that is the controlling body for the breed, the akc is a registry.
The DPCA sets the standard the AKC makes the rules for the show ring
If I remember correctly Zoo is still young? Dobes are a slow maturing breed and don't seem to fill out until 2-3 years old especially males.
as far as rescues being from show breeders I find that highly unlikely - Look at the available dogs at IDR they are all BYB looking (but beautiful as all dobes are)
yes zoo is only a year......but I just dont think he is ever going to get to be the dobes I recall from 20 years ago. he is beautiful! just not what I remember.....as far as the dogs that wind up in shealters and rescues....well... some of them look pretty darn good.not all.......but there are pets in every litter. I just think all litters should be chipped. that would answer as to where the dog started out and where they end up. chance almost got to go to IDR have you seen the english bulldog they got in? dagwood?
Zoorox is right. Drug dealers, for instance, can afford top of the line dobermans when they are flush. It's an entirely different story when the police raid their premises and confiscate their prize pets along with anything else of value as part of state and federal sezure laws. Then what does law enforcement do with the dobermans? That's right, they go to local shelters. It can and does happen more than you think.
Even a poorly bred dobe looks good (granted some better than others) I'm not familar with Dagwood but a lot of bulldogs seem to go through IDR
I would think drug dealers are getting there dogs from commercial kennels like K-tal, House of Hoytt ect than from a reputable show or working breeder that screens puppy buyers. Expensive doesn't mean quality. Neither does looking good it's hard for any dobe to look bad
IDR just placed 12 dogs confiscated in Chicago over Christmas none of them were well bred but they were beautiful.
We had two dobes in our local shelter from a drug raid in the next town over a few years ago when I was looking for a companion for my male. The breeder was notified but wouldn't touch them because of they way they had been trained to protect their owner. These were beutiful dogs, too, but they ended up being put to sleep as soon as the drug case went to trial and the forfeiture proceedings were complete because they were one owner dogs and nobody could get near them.
That is not a good breeder in my opinion - To me a good breeder would prevent their pups getting into that situation to begin with - but if it did would take the dogs and euth them themselves - Breeders need to be responsible for all puppies they produce for the life of the dog
I agree in an ideal world that would be the way it should happen. It's not my place to judge others though. I don't think any of us knows for sure what we would do in a given situation until presented with it personally. And I've found in the long run that judgement is best reserved for the man upstairs.
Not judging anyone really just stating what I consider a responsible breeder to be and if ever I buy a doberman rather than rescue (highly unlikely) - what I would look for in a breeder.
Not sure we need to bring the man upstairs into a doberman forum at least not on my account Thanks though
I was referring to my personal beliefs, not inferring anything about anyone in particular. Sorry for not stating that more clearly.
You are so right! Things happen and when they do we protect them, take them back, learn, and make it better. This is why visiting their home is so important before the dogs are placed and I'm sure why most ethical rescues do that too.
And thank you silent for bringing lots of facts to the forum.
Is this ALL the whites that have titles?
Becky
I wanted to also make it clear that the people that belong to dpca are very dedicated to the breed. There can be good and bad in any group, but usually they hang themselves. The doberman clubs do have rules. They show their dogs to compare them to other dogs. They test their dogs to make sure they are healthy and they give you information on that testing. They check out the homes. There are a lot of the best in that group and I know a few. I do not belong to the group but I respect what they are doing as a group and the breed. They are a group of owners that may or may breed dogs, but they spend a lot of time trying to protect the breed. :SwinginStar:
I appreciate the list of Z or albino dogs that have titles. I'm surprised there were that many. I have yet to see an albino that could compete in the confirmation ring, even if they were not disqualified.
Z factored may not carry the gene, but I assume the lack of quality to the standard would be lacking because of the dogs they came out of. If you're not breeding the dog, being Z factor doesn't matter. So they are labeled "z" factored. Since there is no gene to identify it, how else would you be sure. I personally, am glad to know if there is even a chance of that. It is known they came out of that or they wouldn't be on the list. It doesn't mean they can't be your pet.
Becky
Just a thought,I don't think just because someone is able to breed great dobermans automatically means that person is an ethical person and won't be motivated by profit more than morals.My opinion is that great dogs do end up in rescue situations,probably not as often as byb or puppymill dogs but I'm not sure all breeders care as much about their nonshowquality puppies or are as vigilant about where they end up.
I totally agree.
Most I think do worry about the pet puppies because their reputation within the breed is based in part on how they handle every puppy they breed.
Now that they have proved that Z factored dogs are valuble members of families, and are able to compete and hold titles in competitions maybe we can change the subject...
What do you say....
This thread has been educational and has kept the question in the thread.
Very true silent, and it sure has proved that Z factored dogs have many accomplishments... Thanks
I believe there are many more z's working with titles......but that is just a guess.
I do know that many many many z dogs are great family pets and that alone is a wonderful title. it seems the z dogs are moslty only loved by families that just want to love them. working dogs work-show dogs show-and z's take their zzzzzzzzzzzz's on thier owners lap
Well if we think about it.... how many of us would be here on this forum today if all dobies cost over $1000. Not many! How many dobies have blessed the world and the people they met regardless of there color or background....
Just because a dog is not titled does not mean he/she can not be, it just means that his owners have not taken the time to train for competition. Not the dogs fault...
We have all seen great dogs sent off to rescues not because of the dog, but because the owner can not or do not take the time to train and handle them.
Maybe we should work more toward informing owners of all the amazing things the AKC has to offer rather then blamming the dogs themselves...
Personally I am more worried about the health and the health history of the lines and that the dogs do have the intellegence, trainability and conformation I like than I am worried about titles. Titles are a way of evaluating all of those things.
We all love our pets, I personally want to know mine came from long lived lines and has a good chance at also being around to hog my bed a long time. To me health and longevity are the most important things, but I also want a dobe that will have the temperament, trainability and look I expect in a dobe. Since my dogs are chosen to be service dogs and it is far from cheap to train one, an expected long working life is vital.
True enough Zoo. My head is still swimming from scrolling through all the lists of whites which you and Silent posted the other day; there must be several hundred thousand Z factored dobes out there. I doubt this matter will be resolved in our lifetime or the next generation either. Sooner or later the DPCA will catch up with the times, or not. I didn't know a thing about this when I bought Chloe. It wouldn't have mattered to me one way or the other if I had. Unless your showing a dobe for confirmation none of this matters. I doubt anyone could legally take out an ad to promote operation white-out in this day and age and get away with it without being sued by some law firm somewhere for discrimination anyway. So the whole point is moot in my opinion.
Before anyone jumps in here and decries what I have just said, I want to make it clear that I'm not advocating for or against this issue. I'm just stating the facts as I see them.
Dela, there have been very few compared to those that are not Z factored. Let's be clear. While they have had titles, few have advanced titles and far fewer titles than those dogs that aren't Z. Did you see the Z list. This is a very very small % of those dogs. In addition, even fewer Z factored have championship titles and no albino dogs, as they are disqualified.
Thanks for letting me know about the titles and we congraduate all those dogs....and their owners.
Becky
I can't wade all the way through this thread, but I personally know of a few albino Dobes with performance titles - every single one of them is a rescue.
Thanks velma, thats great to know...
Wow velma...just checked out your site... very nice...
I wouldn't consider a Z factored dog obtaining a CGC and a TDI (which are not titles, in actuality, but certificates) to be a claim that Z factored dobermans do have titles.
There is at least one additional albino doberman with a title - again, a rescue - one living in my house, who has a CD, RA, (and yes, a CGC), and will soon also have his agility titles, an RL1, and a CD-H, as well as his CDX.
The only albino in the history of the breed to attain ANY advanced title at all has been Lexus - also a rescue, and also adopted through the same rescue as Mercury, the one that lives with me.
A long time ago Ione made an offer to pay money to the first owner of an albino doberman to put an advanced title on a dog - and Rhonda did it first. I believe she's put up more money for more advanced titles. Show me the albino breeders out there working their dogs and tell them to put their money where their mouths are. My best friend has had to work her ass off to get this dog where he is - and it has not been easy. He's far from breed worthy, but he's a nice dog in his own way - but he has his own issues. Yet he is still certainly showing up most of the other albino dobes out there, that's for sure!
Yes, and I am all for rescues!
becky
My hats off to you and your dog and this valuable post.
Becky
I've had the pleasure of meeting both of the Albino's Kim mentions in this post. Rhonda has adopted at least two Albinos and I've talked to her several times about the work that went into training her dogs - she also trains and competes with Corgis. Rhonda has told me that she cannot normally show her albino outdoors due to bright sunlight making her almost blind. I got to meet Kim's roommates Albino boy "Mercury" about 1 1/2 years ago and I know that they have done a great job with him. These dogs were all really damn lucky to end up in the rescue homes they are in.
This is an older thread (sorry I am just now seeing it) but i wanted to reply......
A friend of mine (who shall remain nameless) has a gorgeous white male (now neutered) from her own breeding that she trained and worked with herself in Schutzhund. When she decided to go to a club and get some professional help and possibly titled the dog, she was told in no uncertain terms she would never get a white dog titled in schutzhund and to go home.
I have another acquaintance that has owned and bred WZ dogs but she keeps her involvement with the whites undercover so to speak for fear of repercusions in her working dog club.
I had a WZ blue female years ago that I wanted to get into obedience with but when the trainer I was talking to found out she was WZ factored (had two whites in her pedigree 7 GENERATIONS back) i never heard from her again......
I know breeders that have tried showing their wz dogs and where harassed and bullied at the shows (people running up on their dogs in the go arounds, making rude comments on the side lines, bringing the fact the dog is WZ factored tot he attention of judges.)
People will say it doesn't happen but it does. .
Again, if the breeders of WZ's are so proud of what they are producing and stand behind their so called ethics, what others think should not bother them. If it does, then they obviously do not, whole heartedly, believe what they are doing is right. (???) I personally have never seen an Exhibitor walk up to a judge before or during a class in either AKC or UKC.
As far as running up on another dog...I've seen it happen, in AKC & UKC with many different breeds.
Hello this my first day post here. I just changed over from a different Doberman chat. You guys can guess which on that was. I was tired of being abused because of my white dobe. I was attack an gained up on just because I refused to call my dog an albino dobe! But I won't get into all the details. But my question is can there be a white dobe then can come out with exceptional genes (making it better then regular excepted color dobe)to be a working dog? An has there ever been a white dobe with a sch title? I know that no all dogs have the ability to be working dogs this why I say better then. But I'm not claiming my dog to be bettern the Anyone's dog. Thx
All white dobermans are at least considered partial albino. Here's some good info to read on the topic: http://dpca.org/albino/albino_about.htm
Now on working, I'm not sure if they are even allowed? I will let someone else like Dobs4Ever answer that as she is much more knowledgeable on the subject than me. I wouldn't look into getting an albino for the sole purpose of titling it as they come with health problems and shouldn't be bred, purchasing one is supporting the breeder that bred them. They can be sensitive to light, easily susceptible to skin cancer due to lack of pigment and often have poor temperament... all of these things are very important in a working Dobe and can interfere with it's job.
On the other hand, there are many canine sports you could enter instead but again, you would have to take in consideration of any health issues that may interfere with the happiness and health of your dog.
Honestly, no. The "white" Dobe is an albino (this is the truth, I'm sorry if you don't like it) and with that condition comes problems that will always limit them in competition like sensitivity to light that could make it difficult or impossible for them to compete in full sun or under bright lights. Beyond that there is no reason that a color (or rather lack of color in this case) as the only factor being considered would make a dog better than another dog in anything even if the albinos did not have the other genetic problems that come with the condition. A red/brown Dobe is not better than a black Dobe. It is about the temperament that is developed both from genetics and upbringing and the training the dog is given.
I agree with the sunlight issue but my dobe has been practicing schutzhund for a year now down at the local schutzhund club. She does the routine and bite work very well and will be competing at the end of the year. Because she is akc there is nothing in rules says she can't compete. Only one thing she can't compete is confermation. I live in Florida my dobe spends lots of time on my boat fishing with me an no problems.
She has no other issues like people claim whites (albino)have. I was just asking when she competes if she gets titled would she be the first one or there been other.
There has never been a white (albino) Doberman title in much of anything. First they are banned by the DPCA and are supposed to only be on limited reg and never bred. AKC agreed and implemented the Wz registration to identify the gene pool.
It would be very hard for them to make ti to Sch I even as they have to work in the sunlight for tracking, obedience and protection which is very difficult for them not to mention the possible temperament issues which are greater that the albino popultion.
I am not sure any of the working clubs would even reg one to show as it is a genetic defect that has serious health concerns and since their object is to promote good health they would not approve of an genetic defect being promoted.
Correct me im wrong here. I know conformation is evaluation of breeding stock. Couldn't schutzhound, and obedience also be considered the same. Your working to title your dog and show that animal has a great working drive. If health and color don't fit in wouldn't that defeat the purpose of getting the title in the first place.
Whitedobe - I am sure you love your dog and that is awesome. But what are you wanting to acoomplish if you succeed in titling her??? Does she have her BH???
My accomplishement are personal gradification for the hard we've done. If you are asking if intend to breed the answer is no. Like in my introduction post I said she was spayed. Hear in Florida it gets to hot to compete during summer. Last competion was in November an jan an she was to young. She is only a year an 5 month. She has no bh but she does have a akc good k9 award, which I know is not a big deal. She got that when she was 6 month. I can almost guarantee a bh with her her sch 1 title will be a challenge but I feel we will get it.
This is what's upsetting if I understood you correctly cause I'm not really understanding what you are trying to say, but I'll try to answer best as I can. No schutzhund are not based on color or size ect just on the ability to show (like u say) working drive. First if my dog had health issue she would not compete. Second she has awesome drive. Her favorite is bite work she exceeds in this area most. Like ive mention before last year white dobe was the least amount of doberman registered carry the z gene. I don't see anyone telling the black n rust dobe owner anything cause they have a huge number of this genes in them. Not All I know. So what you are saying despite my dog showing great skills in the sport an I should not compete cause she is White (albino gene). That's bs cause we won't do that with a human who looks different an want to compete in the olympic. If she can do it then y not despite of looks or gene carry.
Good luck to you! Don't feel like getting in an argument on a Friday.
I wasn't trying to argue thx have a good weekend
Whitedobe - I know it is confusing and since you are new to the breed it is probably a little overwhelming and then with all that has gone before it tends to put one on the defensive.
As to the black Z factored - they are not glaringly obvious and with an ILP or Pal # and spay/neuter requirement they often go unnoticed by the unscrupulous Albino breeders if they did manage to title one. Anyone would immediately see that the dog was albino and it would take about 3 seconds for it to go viral and then the unscrupulos albiono breeders are off and running about how great albinoism is and how it is not true albino and all their other deliusionary stuff. Fact is they are banned by their own breed club and AKC from showing and competeing in the breed ring. They are disallowed by their own standard which only calls for 4 approved colors.
As we see there is always those who do not care about the standard and feel they should have the right to do their own thing even if it destroys the breed. While I know you love your girl you are finding that there are problems being accepted in regular Doberman circles.
Yes I read where your girl was spayed and that is a good thing. But it would be a very bad thing for the standard and the breed. You have some hard decisions. Do you have a scorebook yet. I know you will not be allowed to obtain one through UDC anbd without a scorebook you can't show period. You do have to have a BH before you can pursue anything else in Schutzhund.
I had a whole long reply written out and my computer died. I'll try to recreate it as best I can. She may not have the sensitivities yet but she will. The older she gets the more and more sensitive her eyes will become. Also, every time you take her outside without some form of protection, like tons of sunscreen, you are risking a bad burn that could result in skin cancer. Without pigment and without color in her hair she is at serious risk.
They are the least registered because there are very few of them (creating a funnel of inbreeding to create more). The breeders that produce them are less than reputable (if they were responsible and reputable they would not breed for color, especially one that is banned by the breed club and associated with so many health problems) and more worried about money than about proper breeding practices like registering. Of course many of them register to get a few more bucks, too. The Dobes of an accepted color that carry the Z gene are not singled out as often as the albinos simply because they are not as easily recognized at a glance. However once their Z factored status is known, especially if they are used for breeding, they are singled out and told how bad of an idea that is. You cannot compare dogs to humans, the ethical implications are completely different between the two. We don't breed people the way we breed dogs, do we? No.
And that is why Whitedobe will continue to receive a less than thrilled reaction from people in the Doberman world. It is great that you are training your dog but you have to realize the greater implications that come with titling your dog. Those out there that are breeding these albinos and confusing people like you about their health, genetics, etc. will use your dog as an example of how great these dogs can be without acknowledging the health problems she will face in the future or that her temperament is the exception not the rule with the albinos.
I'm not trying to pick on you but I cannot allow false information out there without a counter, as well. I hope you understand that.
[quote="
And that is why Whitedobe will continue to receive a less than thrilled reaction from people in the Doberman world. It is great that you are training your dog but you have to realize the greater implications that come with titling your dog. Those out there that are breeding these albinos and confusing people like you about their health, genetics, etc. will use your dog as an example of how great these dogs can be without acknowledging the health problems she will face in the future or that her temperament is the exception not the rule with the albinos.
I'm not trying to pick on you but I cannot allow false information out there without a counter, as well. I hope you understand that.[/quote]
This is what I was trying to say WhiteDobe. I have no problem with you loving your dobe, and training him. With that said titling your dog is just adding to the problem. BYB's will find any excuse they can to do something and latch on, when they found out an albino was titled it would be fuel to an ongoing fire.
What exactly is in a title though? Your doberkid may not have problems with the sun yet, so go out there and do bite work. The health issues unfortunatly will come, so if your pup loves this sport do it now while you have a chance. Just be careful these are not intermittent health issues with z factored dobermans they show up eventually with or without you noticing.
If you are deadseat on getting the titles, it may be time to look at reputable breeders for a working dog.
I hope you do not think we are "bashing" you. I think you might have gotten some mis-leading information, and we hope to help you out.
Z-factored dobies are a huge problem, and that is not just the whites. The whites need love to, but spaying and neutering needs to be the answer in EVERY z-factored dobe. Especially the black/red since it is not easily noticable. Z dobies still need love, and im glad he has you to give that to him. This can be a touchy subject because of how huge of a problem it is in the doberman world.
