The thinking dog

[jazzies mum]

Recently I have been traveling and stayed at a dog friendly B&B where the owner had a lot of experience of dog training, especially boxers. We had some good chats and since she has sent some short video clips of tricks she taught her dogs and how she did it.

Now Jazz has plenty of intelligence to perform pretty much anything. But. She doesn't easily learn "tricks" that have no real purpose or that there seems to be a better way to do! She can compress her body to go through a tunnel, but going around makes much more sense to her. If I need her to go through a small space on a walk she does it willingly, but not as a "trick"!

She will crouch to go into a cardboard box to eat if I put her bowl in there so it isn't fear, just her thinking I'm mad to want her to run through awkward spaces when around is better!
I have taught her how to negotiate over and under logs and to run along them, even climb a slanted log with no problems. If something is unstable underfoot she is out-of-there though. And that is also sensible when you think about it!

I know I can get compliance with all these things if I persist, but have decided that she is just not the type of dog who enjoys this, and I don't need her to either. My previous dog Freckles would literally do backflips if asked to, and any trick was super fun for her so I have been a bit surprised at Jazzies disinterest.

Are Dobes inclined to need more serious jobs to do? Seems like this is the way with Jazz. She has her watch dog duties down, and is now to be relied upon to stay in her home territory. I do still tether her at night but these days she is freed at first light, before I am even out of bed. If all is quiet I sneak a peek and she is on her outside bed surveying her domain. This is without a fence of any type. On a last walk a few nights ago she was showing reluctance to return with me and as it was dark I kept on walking and slipped her collar over her bicycle seat head! She turned and trotted off away down the track and when I called her back, she about turned and trotted back to me, then sat quietly while I slipped her collar back on. She still was reluctant and it was clear she was trying to tell me something so I just unclipped the leash and told her she was ok to go. A leap of faith on my part on a dark night. She trotted off into the bush and out of sight but I could still hear her rustling the leaves, then silence. I waited quietly and listening and after about a minute called her. She came trotting happily back, stopping for a pee on the way, then happily came on home. I think she needed some privacy for a potty break. This is just an example of who she is, and how she is, and I have learned to be less rigid and authoritative and prepared to allow for her needs.

In so many ways I can now trust Jazz to be well behaved and trouble free. Her obedience levels are very good, If there appears to be a difficulty, there is usually a good reason! So as a great companion and fantastic home security she is hard to beat! If we do any further training for fun it will be something like nosework or search and rescue. Something that has a purpose anyway.

I know that @Panama Dalmatian Diva thrives on learning tricks and is brilliant but I was wondering how many Dobermans do as well? And @LifeofRubie Moose, a Lab, is enthusiastically getting into agility whereas Ruby seemed to lose interest after a while. It does seem to me that a Dobermans intelligence is much more questioning than many dogs.

Thoughts?

 

[Oh Little Oji]

My first Dobe and I achieved extensively in the area of tricks, and achieved a CDX obed. title, and I trained him in the UD level routine as well, but he hated the obed. ring so we retired after CDX. Though he was my hobby-bred, low-dollar Dobe, he was highly intelligent and supremely biddable. No trick or trained skill or behavior was beneath him, or saw a lack of compliance in him.

My second Dobe (respectable working lines) was biddable and almost robot-like in obedience – not to say he wasn't a pain. I didn't happen to get into too much trick training with him.

Oji here (respectable working lines) is not biddable and questions and hesitates. It's like he's an independent Dobe, or maybe just not the best working prospect from his litter. I told his breeder I was not intending to do formal IPO training with him, so I have to assume I got the worst male (or maybe dropped on his head or something?)

 

[PhilT]

@jazzies mum I have never really tried to teach any off my dobies lots off tricks just the obedience to commands i required of him to live in the home and for being out on walks, when I got my first dobie Winston I used to live next door to a police dog handler / trainer and he spent a lot off time with me teaching Winston how to behave to my instructions and thats how I've been with all my dogs have done the usual give paw lay/sit before taking treats , I have found that they will always find the easiest way to get around broilers they encounter like fences, gates, ditches etc , but i have found it was inbuilt about sensing when something was not right and needing to investigate, all three had their own character but they all behaved the same when they had the sense something was out of place , they all had to be with any off the family when someone came to the front door pushing infront to check out who's there and checking if it was OK to let them in all sorts off protective things , but ask one to go through a storm pipe or through restricted spaces they would look at me like I was stupid and get round the problem their own way ie over or around so yes I would say they use their intelligence

 

[Tropicalbri's]

When Bogie and Bacall were about a year old and we tried the tunnels, Bacall happily ran through it without treat baiting. Bogie on the other hand thought it was too hot and stupid to run through it. I put a treat at the exit end of the tunnel and tried to get him to run through. Nope, he ran around the tunnel and entered the exit to get the treat then laid down in the tunnel out of the heat of the sun.
The trainer had raised the height of the jump because Bogie was known for his jumping proclivities. Again I was embarrassed as he ran toward the jump and went under it. It was a good laugh for everyone.
He has learned a lot of tricks by observing things not being taught by me.
He knows I keep treats in my file cabinet drawer so he learned to open the drawer, so I locked the drawer but left key in the lock. He eventually learned to turn the key and then open the drawer and devour the treats. Ugh. So now the key is hidden.
He has learned to open doors, refrigerator, cabinet doors etc.
Bacall is content to watch him, then run to me barking to tell on him. It’s a zoo but a very loving and entertaining zoo.

 

[LifeofRubie]

Rubie will appease me to some degree but if she doesn't WANT to do something, there is no convincing her. Thus why agility is kind of a bust for her. Not amount of me trying to reward, make it fun, get her pumped, etc., convinced her it was worth doing. She's AMAZING at it: fast, intuitive, accurate. But she has no motivation to do it.

I will say though, hiking-wise (which we do a lot of), she's by far one of the best 'technical' dogs I've seen. That she enjoys.

Barn Hunt taps into her prey drive more so she WANTS to do it and the difference is incredible (but let's talk once we start trialing).

Moose, on the other hand, will do anything I ask him to as many times as I ask him to do it. If he doesn't get it right, he doesn't care. He'll try again. That being said, if something spooks him or looks suspicious, it's hard to convince him it's not a boogie man. We've been working through it during our neighborhood walks, though.

As far as tricks, they each know enough to have earned their Novice titles and probably could manage Intermediate titles but it's mostly stuff more related to just being good doggo's!

 

[LifeofRubie]

Has anyone here watched The Last Dance about the Chicago Bulls in the era of Michael Jordan, Scotty Pippin, and Dennis Rodman?

Rubie is Dennis Rodman: He would disappear and go on week long Vegas benders, randomly show up to a game or practice, and still be the best one there. All the talent, none of the motivation but liked to reap the benefits of stardom.

Moose is Michael Jordan: He worked, and worked, and worked and when people said he was perfect, he knew he could be better. Not the most naturally talented played but definitely the hardest working.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I don’t know if I shared this here, but I used to have my first Doberman ride on the back of my Harley. Not as spectacular looking as you might at first think, I had attached an airline crate where the passenger seat used to be.

This was just a Sportster, the small Harley, so I chose a crate as small as possible. My 28”, 95 lb. boy would just fit in there if he made himself small, as our breed is wont to do.

He would actually jump into the crate after I got on the bike, and I’d reach back and shut the door and take off.

As a younger single man, basic liability car insurance was too expensive for me to afford, so this was my only transportation besides a bicycle. Getting to obedience trials and to the training I did, just him and me in various parks and locations, required a motor vehicle and this was it.

On one evening, I wanted to take Magnum to a meeting of the Metropolitan Baltimore Doberman Pinscher Club we were members of. We loaded up and set off for I-95 and on to the meeting location.

When the club members thought about the fact I always rode a motorcycle, yet I had brought my Dobe, they asked and I told them how.

After the meeting, some of the ladies (‘cause these clubs are made up mostly of ladies as we know) wanted to see me get my big boy on/in my bike.

We went out there and I told Magnum to load up. He didn’t. Embarrassed, I told him again. My boy never balked or hesitated at a command, you see. Looking stressed, he still did not jump up there. I told him a third time, probably with a bit more emphasis, and he complied.

A moment later, after a rousing several seconds of accolades and me giving that sort of Ralph Cramden “Well, I’d like to think that…” expression, I looked into the crate and to my shock, saw that I had left my leather jacket and full-face helmet in the small crate!!

Faithful Magnum was huddled in there with those bulky items.

So, a little bit of thinking for himself there, but overridden by unquestioning faithful service.

 

[Ravenbird]

As the comments show, I think they are all different. Motivation is important, without it you can train the dog, but it will be lackluster. My '90's Doberman couldn't get enough. She'd be like: "I know that word, teach me a new one". She could pick up all her toys, one at the time, by name and take them to her crate - about a dozen of them - before she was 6 months old. She lived to please me. Asha is as independent as they come and her look is "make me". Unless it's something extremely fun. She loves to jump on something, so teaching her to walk a board was easy. Now we go to a park and are heeling by a bench she jumps on and walks it to the end and jumps off and continues the heel. She is much harder to train than the other one but at the same time I'd say she is way smarter, but her life revolves around doing what pleases her, not necessarily pleasing me.

 

[Kaiser2016]

Are Dobes inclined to need more serious jobs to do? Seems like this is the way with Jazz. She has her watch dog duties down, and is now to be relied upon to stay in her home territory. I do still tether her at night but these days she is freed at first light, before I am even out of bed. If all is quiet I sneak a peek and she is on her outside bed surveying her domain. This is without a fence of any type.

I'd say they are more serious at night, but getting a Doberman to stay on an unfenced property is quite the feat so wow, way to go! I wouldn't trust Kaiser to do that, that's for sure. We did rally obedience in the beginning and Kaiser was super bored of what they were teaching there. He would often lay down in protest lol. I could make it more fun if I ran the course with him because anything at high speed is what he loves! The repetition of basic commands, however, gets very boring for him, he needs variety and excitement. He can do some tricks like handshake without needing a treat motivation, but trying to put food on his head, he looks at you like you're insulting him, like, why are you putting food on my head when it should be in my mouth you morons! Lol, the attitude on this dog. The whole idea of keeping things fun, it sure rings true for this Doberman.

 

[jazzies mum]

So many different, and often funny, stories! It does seem that there are quite a few Dobermans who do think for themselves. With Jazz having a mixed breed heritage I did wonder if some of her independence might have come through from the Ridgeback side. I know they do have a reputation for stubbornness. Jazz is obedient but not above trying to tell me that my way isn't to her liking! Life is short so in regards to the training we do for fun I will keep it to things that she gets equal enjoyment from.

@Kaiser2016 Jazz learning to stay on her home territory was a long process and I was never really sure if she would be trustworthy. A female is probably easier to home train than a male. Even a desexed male.

 

[AnnV]

Same with Bedja, @Kaiser, try to put a treat on his head and he goeshuumans...

Also, when he can't reach a toy behind or under furniture he lets me know to assist him, however, sometimes when there are shoes where I assume he won't reach he surprises me by stealing them!

 

[Rosa]

Ok, I just decided to attach this comment to this thread. I had an interesting discussion with this guy. He is planning on breeding his dogs, and he wanted some advice. Having grown up around dog breeding and handling our breeding program for the past three and a half years, I was happy to help with some ideas. Anyway, he was like, how to you read a dog's emotions when they have a stubby tail and cropped ears. I said that was from someone who had had floppy eared dogs all his life, but that body language and eye motion can tell you a lot. Then he said, knowing I'm a Doberman fan, "Why do Dobermans look you in the eye and stare a hole right through you!" I had heard that about Dobermans, but having been able to see it for myself, so I was really excited to hear that. What do you guys think about that. I know I have freaked out quite of few dogs by looking them in the eye.

 

[Ravenbird]

I know I have freaked out quite of few dogs by looking them in the eye.

In the dog world it is not polite at all to stare them in the eye. It translates to a challenge, so for a strong dog they will take it as such and stare back or growl or bark. For a more submissive dog they can get into fear defense, barking but looking for a way out. A cornered fear-biter is worse than a brave dog because its afraid for it's life and has no escape. Never stare at someone else's dog, it brings up unwanted behavior most of the time. I have a mantra I repeat to anyone meeting my dog: No touch, no talk & no eye contact.

 

[Ddski5]

how to you read a dog's emotions when they have a stubby tail and cropped ears.

"Why do Dobermans look you in the eye and stare a hole right through you!"

Ragnar is 3.5yrs old and I can pretty much tell you what to expect from him in any given situation.

But....if you ask me to read his expression? I still, to this day, look at him and wonder what is going on. Dark eyes with cropped ears- he hardly ever shows any inkling.

 

[Ravenbird]

I still, to this day, look at him and wonder what is going on. Dark eyes with cropped ears- he hardly ever shows any inkling.

Ah, but he does! This is what I call an "inward thought" look. I could well be wrong, but both these photos (to me) show relaxed but thinking, mulling over a situation that doesn't require action, if that makes sense? I have no idea what the situation is, 2nd is in his working harness, but he doesn't look amped up... maybe looking at the field or helper, like "what was that all about" or maybe "I think we're about to have some fun". I love the first photo. I'd venture to say he's gazing at something he loves and is confident in - his home? a favorite park? you? watching the girls play soccer? I don't know, he just looks content and happy and loving where he is at this moment. Again, I'm just guessing.
My own dog? I can read her like a book. Mad, Happy, Alert, Pout, Excitement, Tired, Sleepy - it's written all over in neon. LOL she wants the whole world to know what she thinks.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

My own dog? I can read her like a book. Mad, Happy, Alert, Pout, Excitement, Tired, Sleepy - it's written all over in neon. LOL she wants the whole world to know what she thinks.

This reminds me of years ago when my best friend said, after knowing, and even living with, my Dobe for a lot of his life said to me one day that he's never been able to tell what is in that dog's mind. He'd never been able to read his face.

Of course, I could read my Dobe; but I do think that Dobes may tend to have the gift of a good poker face. This really comes to the fore now that I have children. Whenever my little one gets close to Oji, I am watching him – his body language and his facial expression. I must admit I often don't receive sufficient information. It's a bit harrowing, because I see a look similar to that far away look my previous Dobe would get when he'd stiffen up and attack; but it's not that with Oji.

I'm also reminded of one night I talked to an elderly gentleman who had a big pit bull with him. He said to me that he didn't trust Dobermans. Pits, yes. Dobermans no.

So I think this all goes to the topic of: What is a Doberman thinking? What's going on in the head of that "Dog with the human mind?"

 

[jazzies mum]

Jazz will meet just about any ones eyes with a happy look on her face......................until she meets the odd person she Just. Doesn't. Like. Then she either averts her eyes and moves away or glares and barks. Not much doubt in either case what she is thinking!

 

[Rosa]

Y

In the dog world it is not polite at all to stare them in the eye. It translates to a challenge, so for a strong dog they will take it as such and stare back or growl or bark. For a more submissive dog they can get into fear defense, barking but looking for a way out. A cornered fear-biter is worse than a brave dog because its afraid for it's life and has no escape. Never stare at someone else's dog, it brings up unwanted behavior most of the time. I have a mantra I repeat to anyone meeting my dog: No touch, no talk & no eye contact.

Yes, I knew that. I know my brother used to do it to our dogs just to annoy them. And I told the guy this, if you look a dog in the eye, and he's not afraid of you, he will be more likely to attack. If he is afraid of you, he will back down but bark! Anyway, I can do it with Twilight and Shylah, so I have this bad habit of just looking the dog in the eye the first time we meet. I have to remind myself not to. Twilight it is amazing because she seems to be trying to read my mind!

 

[Rosa]

Ragnar is 3.5yrs old and I can pretty much tell you what to expect from him in any given situation.

But....if you ask me to read his expression? I still, to this day, look at him and wonder what is going on. Dark eyes with cropped ears- he hardly ever shows any inkling.

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He is a lovely dog, but I agree with Ravenbird. Dogs can be read even like that. I like the fact that he seems alert no matter the situation. But, a dog other people cannot understand is sometimes a benefit. They will probably stay away just because of that. I always say, if you want to understand a dog you have to learn to develop a feeling for it. Tune into to the dog. I would say that if this is common for Ragnar, he seems to be in general a very alert dog no matter the situation. But you seem to see this for a lot of Dobermans. They are just amazing! I love this factor! Makes me want one soooooo badly!

 

[Ravenbird]

Yes, I knew that. I know my brother used to do it to our dogs just to annoy them. And I told the guy this, if you look a dog in the eye, and he's not afraid of you, he will be more likely to attack. If he is afraid of you, he will back down but bark! Anyway, I can do it with Twilight and Shylah, so I have this bad habit of just looking the dog in the eye the first time we meet. I have to remind myself not to. Twilight it is amazing because she seems to be trying to read my mind!

For dogs you know, looking into their eyes for communication and mutual is fine, and rewarding. Asha doesn't tolerate a person or a dog staring at her eyes, it's a constant training issue... but we can look into each others eyes all day long.