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Boys fighting, told to neuter

Horselady

Member
Neegan, who just turned a year I think, and Congo (just turned 2, OEB) are arguing. (I didn't want two males, long story). They aren't doing real damage just some scrapes and sometimes a tooth puncture but nothing serious (yet). However getting woke up at 12:30 am by a dog fight isn't fun. I've tried breaking them up, I've tried letting them sort it out, it doesn't seem to be helping and now that I'm working and they are crated, the more time they spend crated the more they fight. You guys think neutering them will help solve this or do I need to do some major corrective training? Or am I going to have to rehome the OEB? Really don't want to because otherwise he's an awesome dog.

Background on it: they've argued here and there for a while. It used to be Neegan would look at Congo, hackles up growling and peeing himself. I honestly took it as Neegan was submitting to Congo and scared of him. Congo looked like he was being nice, wagging his tail, but he was also staring Neegan down.

Now, I cant tell who is starting it. Looks like Neegan most of the time. Congo even will lick Neegans face in a submissive pose and neegan will stand there and growl. That said, I frequently see the reverse where neegan licks Congo and while Congo doesn't growl he will just stand there. I don't want to keep them separate and honestly that seems to make it worse. I came home from new employee orientation and they got into it 4 times in under an hour. I think maybe they are jostling back and forth on who is alpha and neither seems willing to concede. Although Neegan still let's my min pin bitch be alpha, Congo frequently will go after her when she attacks him. That said, MyMy is a witch and she attacks everyone's for looking at her wrong but I have never really seen Congo go after her without her going after him. Both dogs are fine in the presence of other bitches. My parents dogs are bitches and when they get possessive of their space or owner my two dogs back down immediately.

More info about the house: they have two older sporting breed bitches, it's their house, so my dogs get to be upstairs one at a time. Outside I take them out together and or separately, they also have a kennel that only Congo will stay in Neegan digs out. At night I have the basement and so all three dogs are down stairs in my area with me. It's as big as the upstairs. Congo sleeps on the floor because he can't get his big butt in bed, MyMy sleeps in bed and so does Neegan. We don't go crazy and have 5 dogs loose in the house all at the same time, so there are limits to when they are loose or outside etc. I try to spend as much time with them as possible though.

Also Neegan is becoming neurotic! He is super clingy to me, he can get out of his wire crate if it isn't snapped all around, he has dug under the outside kennel. I take them (one at a time) for runs with the 4wheeler and while waiting for me to get going he got so excited he darted in and bit my knee, hard enough to put three bruises and a puncture through my jeans. He's lucky it wasn't my son's knee. So he didn't get to run that day, he got crated while his buddy had fun, but clearly he's got some issues I need to crack down on. I'm also having to make him sit by the door because he will bolt through and knock my son over, so easy solution is to make him sit and settle down, it works.

I'm being told to neuter the boys to settle the aggression. I'm not sold on this idea, but it sounds viable, especially since they now live with 3 un spayed bitches.

I've tried cold water to break them up, shock collar, pulling them apart, hitting them with a cardboard tube. The most effective is putting them in their crates for a bit and starting over, then they will get along. Sadly I believe it is Neegan who is constantly challenging. I could be wrong but reading body language seems to say that Congo is kind of the "whatever dude it's cool," until someone challenges him and then he doesn't back down. If Neegan would leave him alone, Congo would leave Neegan alone, but Neegan feels the need to challenge. Sometimes Neegan ends up on the bottom and sometimes Congo does. If I let them break up on their own they will (they don't fight to death or anything) but it's frustrating and not good for the drywall/house.

Any advice or tips are welcome. My family has always just separated two males who fought for life, but I don't want to do that to these two if there is a way around it.
 
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I wont be much help as a first time dog owner, but a 5 dog household...wow. I can barely handle one!

What's OEB?

Are both boys Dobes? Ugh I just hate the idea that someone might get rehomed, but from what I've read on same sex aggression, crate and rotate might be the only option but that doesn't sound like much fun! Hopefully the others will have some other ideas you can try!
 
The OEB is an Old English Bulldogge, and yes, 5 dogs a two year old and 7 horses feels like "I bought a zoo" most days.... But I feel worse for my parents who had an 8 and 12 year old dogs and then a few horses. They aren't used to a baby, two young dogs and a stallion.

We try to keep it under control. That's why only one of the boys can be upstairs at a time so there are only 3 biggish dogs (MyMy doesnt count, she sleeps 90% of the time).
 
I'm being told to neuter the boys to settle the aggression.
I'm sorry you're having problems. :( I personally don't think neutering will solve much, even though some suggest/push it. I know it's different with things like stallions and bulls (who can get nasty and unpredictable) but dogs are a totally different story there. You can easily have SSA with altered dogs too so that personally wouldn't be a reason for me to do it.

I take them (one at a time) for runs with the 4wheeler and while waiting for me to get going he got so excited he darted in and bit my knee, hard enough to put three bruises and a puncture through my jeans. He's lucky it wasn't my son's knee. So he didn't get to run that day, he got crated while his buddy had fun, but clearly he's got some issues I need to crack down on. I'm also having to make him sit by the door because he will bolt through and knock my son over, so easy solution is to make him sit and settle down, it works.
I was going to say that it sounds like he's trying to take an alpha status so you might need to go back to the basics with the NILIF method, if you aren't already doing it.
 
Not sure what nilif is?

I have noticed if I have the ecollar on one of then the aggression is better/less. I need to buy another color but it seems like I won't be able to correct two at same time unless I get a second controller as well.im pretty sure this one is tritronics and you have to move the color to the corresponding collar, but at least they quit
 
Neutering will not fix your problem, you need to be the alpha and do more obedience training with them. It is possible that they may never be able to be out together if it continues to get worse. I have two males that are not allowed to be out at the same time. Crate and rotate may be the only solution.
 
Scary situation you are in. A lot of animals and everyone vying for Pack Leader. I have never had two males because I was told by my breeder when we bought our first Doberman that if I ever wanted a second one (while having the first), make it the opposite sex. And everything I have ever heard on this board over the years has kept me on that path. :) I've only seen a few people make it work and most of the time it was more work than I ever want to do. lol Crate Rotation and never having all out at once seems to be the only solution. Spay/Neuter doesn't change a dog like it does a Stallion. My gelding is a gentle giant :) but Dogs are different. I fear you will not change much with surgery. Are your females intact too? I don't know how you handle all of that and wish you luck!

Although Neegan still let's my min pin bitch be alpha, Congo frequently will go after her when she attacks him.
I would be very careful with your little one! That doesn't sound like it will go down well. I have a 11lb Chi/Mix and I would be very fearful of something happening to her in your situation. They are too small to withstand even one shake! I think crate rotation will be your only solution. You must be a strong Pack Leader too, not standing for any foolishness between any of them, and stopping anything before it even starts. But keeping them apart seems to be the only solution, I'm sorry.
 
What makes me hopeful I guess is that they get along about 80% of the time. When we had Akitas once they fought they were done and it was game on if they were ever together after that.

When ex and I picked out Neegan he was a present for me because he screwed up (again) and I was sort of like "sure I will let you buy me a Doberman! But we were supposed to buy a bitch but the bitch was ugly so I was veto'ing the idea but the breeder and ex were all "oh it's ok, they will get along" and I guess I sort of figured Congo and ex wouldn't be around long enough for there to be aggression. (Sometimes you just know where it is going)

But when ex was removed from my home he didn't take his dog, (or his daughter) and never mentioned wanting his dog until after I moved... (Didn't get his daughter for a month until I filed for full custody...)

Anyway, little dog usually isn't around them too much, but usually they are nice to her she's just evil and if they get into it she will jump in too, and if they look at her wrong she's in attack mode. Usually they ignore her, but sometimes Congo seems to think "I've had enough you little bitch". Everything one else puts up with her.

But like I said my little girl and my parents one female tend to disappear to a bedroom to sleep allday, so that leaves their one female and one of the boys up in the house, but at night I try to let both boys loose. Last night was argument free, night before was argument free, night before that they got into it and I couldn't get them to stop they stopped on their own so I put them in their crates and then a few hrs later let them back out. (Nothing like waking up 300x a night when you have to work).
 
We recently had a similar situation. I have a pair of dobies and my son has a female, GiGi.
GiGi came to stay with us a few days. Rumor is intact and G is not. They have know each other and have seen each other since about day one of Rumor's homecoming in Dec. At first G treated Rumor like her baby, very motherly. As Rumor grew up she saw G more at G's house cause G lives on 200 acres so we go there for exercise. Like I said, G recently came here. Rumor was like oh hell NO, not on my turf! Interesting what maturity does for dogs. I was all over it from the beginning and think I nipped it in the bud. That said, they will NEVER be left unattended! We reached a place where they could be out together and actually played together. Always under supervision. I told that story because I wanted to point out because they get along when one is a pup, maturity is a game changer. Also once you tho down that road never believe you fixed it. Obedience and supervision will always be necessary.

I would be careful using an e collar. That can actually make the situation worse. The dog not knowing where the correction came from may think it was the other dog. I would refresh myself on dog behavior so you see the ques before the fight, cut down on run time and use some of that time for obedience. SSA is real and sometimes just can't be fixed. Crate and rotate may just be a part of your life.
 
I agree they will never be left together unattended... When I'm gone they're crated. I wish it didn't have to be that way but it is. I'm just hoping since it's only 10-20% of the time that they right that I could make a difference with feeding them, reminding both that I'm alpha, etc. Which I guess I usually do but I tend to have a "do your own thing" attitude until they mess up, then they know who is boss.

They don't challenge me however I think Neegan can be disrespectful about the bed. If he weren't locked in a kennel all day he would sleep in one at night. I just feel bad for them. Being in a crate 20 he's a day isn't a life. :(
 
Welcome to SSA. Happens when they are about 12-18 months. Neutering will not help. This will only get worse without intervention from a certified animal behaviorist. If you don't want to hire one, crate and rotate, or rehoming is your best option. This is why we always advise against same sex households.

Hitting, spraying, shocking will ALWAYS make a fight worse. Your only way to break it up is to not allow a fight to happen at all. Never leave them together unattended.

It may be only happening 10-20% of the time now, but if it's not properly dealt with it will get worse
 

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