4 Year Old Intact Male - Marking Everything

[BaronTheRed]

Hi, question for those smarter and more experienced than us is how we can be better owners to help our 4 yr old male un-neutered Dobie stop marking so much. In the past 2 years his marking has gone up 500%. He now pees on every structure in his backyard, the bbq, bikes, AC unit, plants...I saw him mark a beetle walking in the dirt. I have a hunch it's because there's (always) been a family of squirrels living in our huge pine tree and he's feeling like his domain is threatened, but...when I take him on walks we can't go more than 10 feet without him stopping and marking something. Even if I snap the leash, he won't stop and ends up marking my leg or foot. It's out of control. We brought home a kitten 18 months ago and our Dobie acclimated very well..they get along great but in the past 2 months he started marking the letterbox inside the house that's been there for 18 months. It's a real issue now.

Is this a personality thing that we just need to deal with? Or is there something I can do to educate myself and be a better owner?

Thanks so much.

Baron's Dad

 

[Kaiser2016]

I saw him mark a beetle walking in the dirt

ends up marking my leg or foot

Gotta watch out!

he started marking the letterbox inside the house

Well that’s not so funny, because the cat will get mad about that. We have an intact male as well, 7.5 years old, and the key for us was to never let him mark anywhere we didn’t want it. That means having them leashed when they go to the yard.

At 4, Baron has had a long time to practice this bad habit so it will be extra hard work to get him to stop. But they are smart so don’t be deterred. It has to be clear to him that the area is off limits. First, you will need an enzyme cleaner to properly eliminate his old markings. Then if he’s about to lift a leg inappropriately, reinforce with a pop on his collar and say no.

For walks, sniffing is key and we let Kaiser mark anything and it is pretty obsessive behavior. He will also mark the ground with his paws by repeatedly wiping his feet, and if he runs out of urine in a really important spot, he will force a poop lol, even if he already pooped before that spot! The only way to prevent marking on walks is if you do any sort of a focused walk with them where sniffing isn’t allowed.

 

[Ravenbird]

The one & only reason your dog marks so much is simply because you let him. Period. As long as there is no price to pay, he has no idea that he needs to do anything differently. And as @Kaiser2016 said, the longer it goes on the harder it is to stop because it's a self rewarding thing. If you say no and pop the leash and he does it anyway, even as you are dragging him off his mark, that means the reward of getting to mark is worth more to him than trying to please you. In other words, he's blowing you off and doesn't respect you or your commands, much less your wishes. Get tools (prong collar for instance) that mean something and that enable you to control him. Say NO like you mean it. Put the cat box in a room where he can't get to it (I have put a string on the door knob tied to a hook so it can open wide enough for a cat, but the dog can't push it open further. Or a baby gate. Don't allow him access. If he's marking anywhere else in the house you need to put him in a crate unless you watch him and have a collar & tab leash to grab him up with. Give him a correction for just sniffing. 99.9% of marking is proceeded by sniffing. Watch him like a hawk and blow the match out, don't wait until you have a fire! Same on walks. Hold him in one area to sniff & pee and mark for several minutes, then go on a walk and allow zero sniffs or pee until YOU decide to stop and let him do his sniffs again. He can go all night without peeing, he can go on a 20 minute walk without marking, I promise. Personally if you have a fenced back yard, and want him to have free time, I would just let that go. Off leash could be his personal time. But on leash and in the house you need to take control with no apologies about it. Sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you give him an inch with this he will take a mile, as he's already demonstrated. You might also find that he begins to look up at you with more respect (and admiration!) in more ways as you become a leader in his life.

Best of luck, it may take a little work on your part, but it can be done!

 

[Kswoodssue]

Agree with folks above. It is time to put the hammer down on that behavior. He won’t like it, but it won’t take him long to understand what you want.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Well, this evening brought a deeply disturbing occurrence.

During dinner, Zephyr (intact 1 yr., 1 mo. male) sniffed at the base of a sort of china cabinet then stepped into position and marked on it.

His house training has been complete for some time now and we are beyond worrying about it.

This would appear to be territorial marking.

The first thing that came to mind is: Is there the scent of a rodent under that cabinet or in the wall behind it?

What could cause him to feel he needed to mark inside the house suddenly?

We sure don't need a serious problem like this.

Yes, he has been lifting his leg when peeing outdoors for some months now, and I'm glad about it. Chiefly, I'm glad because it has almost eliminated him peeing on his front legs!! I would be lying though if I said I don't want my male dog to lift leg when peeing. It's a masculine trait and just part of being a boy dog, in my opinion. Male dogs that squat to pee are just sort of wimpy to me. Sometimes he'll squat to pee if there is nothing to pee on, but a lot of times he will go ahead and lift leg to pee even if there's nothing to pee on.

Anyway, I saw some were saying that we ought to discourage leg lifting outdoors??

I know as a large male he is slow maturing and we haven't yet seen the entirety of his man-self. He has gradually gained confidence when playing with dogs off leash (he was disappointingly timid about encountering other dogs or even hearing one bark in the distance early on, and I needed to get him over it). He is becoming slowly more dominant over other dogs, and I am fully aware that I need to watch him like a hawk when off leash around other dogs. His breed makeup is not supposed to get along with dogs outside his pack. He is a big sweetheart and just loves to play. Even when a dog lashes out at him, he just jumps away but jumps right back in and tries to turn it into a play session. He's a big goofy, sweet guy. Just to give you an idea of his temperament and development.

Boy oh boy, I hope this marking was a complete anomaly and that this is not going to be an emerging tendency in him. I have taken him repeatedly to places like outdoor patios of restaurants and breweries and he has not once marked even on the bare concrete in those spaces.

I am recalling, however, that he will mark on the pavers in the backyard instead of going to the mulch to pee, and he will mark the house and garage etc. but I firmly condemn that. The other day he peed right on the sidewalk instead of walking a couple feet over to the grass.

 

[Rits]

We sure don't need a serious problem like this.

How did you react to him? He will continue to do it if it isn't cleaned up well enough and if you don't correct him.

I have two intact boys in the house right now. The second one came in and attempted to mark our couch. Never marked before. I immediately corrected him and outside he went. Hasn't tried or thought about it since.

The boys are allowed to leg lift in the yard only but not out on walks. I dont want them thinking they can mark the world how they please which to me can easily transition to inside.

I think in your case it's a coming of age and maturity thing. I personally would pull him from the dog park before waiting until something happened. Especially given his breed's temperament and his maturity progressing.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

How did you react to him? He will continue to do it if it isn't cleaned up well enough and if you don't correct him.

I have two intact boys in the house right now. The second one came in and attempted to mark our couch. Never marked before. I immediately corrected him and outside he went. Hasn't tried or thought about it since.

The boys are allowed to leg lift in the yard only but not out on walks. I dont want them thinking they can mark the world how they please which to me can easily transition to inside.

I think in your case it's a coming of age and maturity thing. I personally would pull him from the dog park before waiting until something happened. Especially given his breed's temperament and his maturity progressing.

Thanks for the ideas!

I treated him, it sounds like, just like you treated your Dobe who attempted to mark your couch. Well, I didn't physically correct him, but I sternly verbally reprimanded him as did my wife simultaneously. I grabbed him (by the scruff since he had no collar on) and commanded him to go outside and pee. I walked him out there and insisted that he pee. I think the big difference may be that you caught your boy before he started peeing. ? With us, we were just having dinner and talking when I heard liquid hitting a hard surface

I have to say that a big part of the reason I didn't physically correct him is that it doesn't seem to have any effect on him. He is really a conundrum and a challenge in this way. The scruff grab and shake seems to have no effect. A related side note: At dinner when he puts his beak over/on the table which he is tall enough to do while just standing normally, the scruff shake is ineffective, as is pushing him away while verbally reprimanding him or giving him the version of the No command that we use.

One quality Zephyr has is persistence. He just goes ahead and does the thing again that you just firmly told him to not do. This may be repeated three or four times. (Yes, this goes directly against my training style in a way. Yes, I do correct before repeating a command). Very interestingly, he is like this when a dog lashes out at him. He jerks back out of range to protect himself, but then gets right back in there and tries again, and pesters the dog. So, one thing that my older daughter discovered at the dinner table is pushing the top of his snout down and away. This actually seems to be much more effective. She, I guess, got this from horse training and handling.

So, no marking on walks and when away from his own property? I can see how this could help the problem, but I'm not ready to try that. How do you accomplish this? Making sure he pees pretty fully in your yard, then when you walk him, don't let him pee, or just make sure he pees with his leg down? Do you assume that if he's emptied his bladder sufficiently at home he should not need to pee on a walk, so you just disallow it? I've never thought about disallowing my dog from peeing on walks, but I wonder if I did disallow him to lift leg on walks he might still consider peeing without lifted leg to be marking.

 

[Rits]

So, no marking on walks and when away from his own property? I can see how this could help the problem, but I'm not ready to try that. How do you accomplish this? Making sure he pees pretty fully in your yard, then when you walk him, don't let him pee, or just make sure he pees with his leg down?

They can pee on walks when I pull them aside and say "go potty" but no pulling me to a tree or trash can or whatever to hike a leg. They won't potty without me telling them to if I've sufficiently pottied them beforehand. A leash is on so it is easy enough to correct and redirect the behaviors leading up to it. Ie: Sniffing, circling, stalling.

Do you assume that if he's emptied his bladder sufficiently at home he should not need to pee on a walk, so you just disallow it? I've never thought about disallowing my dog from peeing on walks, but I wonder if I did disallow him to lift leg on walks he might still consider peeing without lifted leg to be marking.

Depends on how long your walk is and if they've had water while on the walk. A walk does get things moving. Either way, mine are so used to only pottying when I tell them to because of dog shows. So just because there's grass (outdoor dog shows for example) or a stray trash can or insert any item here... doesn't mean they can pee on it.

I'm pretty sure male dogs always leave some behind for marking. That's why I sort of hate when they hike their legs to potty. I know my males bladder is much more likely to be empty when he stands still to pee with all 4 on the ground.

It will likely be harder with your male because of his livestock guardian breeds. He was bred to be independent and not need direction.

 

[Ravenbird]

So, no marking on walks and when away from his own property? I can see how this could help the problem, but I'm not ready to try that. How do you accomplish this?

I agree with @Rits here and repeat my comment above: Before your walk, give your dog the length of the leash to circle and sniff and pee all he wants for several minutes. Hold your space so he can't drag you anywhere else of his choosing. Then off you go on your walk, no sniffing or marking until you stop, let out the leash and let him sniff/pee/mark in that one area, again without him dragging you off to make his own decisions about when & where. You are a big believer in the structure of leadership with your dogs, this is just another version of it. Marking has nothing to do with needing to pee. Zero. It's marking, 3 drops will make his point. He will not lose his "manly-ness" to the strange dogs who have peed on the grass previously, he won't turn into a wimp, he will just be a dog that respects you and your space and furniture. I personally don't think lifting a leg should be discouraged. They lift a leg to empty their bladder just the same as lifting a leg to mark, so trying to stop it could send weird conflicting signals. Correct the sniffing that indicates "about to move up and mark this".

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I agree with @Rits here and repeat my comment above: Before your walk, give your dog the length of the leash to circle and sniff and pee all he wants for several minutes. Hold your space so he can't drag you anywhere else of his choosing. Then off you go on your walk, no sniffing or marking until you stop, let out the leash and let him sniff/pee/mark in that one area, again without him dragging you off to make his own decisions about when & where. You are a big believer in the structure of leadership with your dogs, this is just another version of it. Marking has nothing to do with needing to pee. Zero. It's marking, 3 drops will make his point. He will not lose his "manly-ness" to the strange dogs who have peed on the grass previously, he won't turn into a wimp, he will just be a dog that respects you and your space and furniture. I personally don't think lifting a leg should be discouraged. They lift a leg to empty their bladder just the same as lifting a leg to mark, so trying to stop it could send weird conflicting signals. Correct the sniffing that indicates "about to move up and mark this".

Thanks, Ravenbird!

I'll have to think about this, but your methodology sounds sound. I think if I were in a position to be devoting special time to training and doing an activity with my dog, I'd feel I could limit him so on his walks. As it stands, I incorporate training into everyday life and so he doesn't get much outlet/stimulation except for those sit-stays while I go to the basement to get his food, that heeling training as we walk to the park or walk wherever, the recall training and retrieving work.This, and romping with other dogs at the park. So I would feel he might not be getting enough time to just blow off steam, if you will, if I forbade sniffing on walks. They say dogs do get something out of sniffing the outside world on walks. Hmm.

For you and Rits and others who are really into training time and doing specific training/competing activities with your Dobes, I can see your system working well.

But I'm reaching out for ideas to combat what hopefully will not become a marking problem in the house, so I appreciate the time you took to provide your thoughts.

 

[Ravenbird]

So I would feel he might not be getting enough time to just blow off steam, if you will, if I forbade sniffing on walks.

The thing is you can do this as much or as little as you wish. You can do a sniff walk in the morning letting him sniff & mark everywhere you go, then go for a quick walk around the block in the evening and not let him sniff/mark at all. Or you can be on a sniff walk and just challenge yourself to see if you can go from one street to another without letting him sniff, then release him again to do his thing. He will learn when it's "recess" and when it's time to listen. It will increase his overall view of you being in charge no matter if it's a relax walk "just for him" or if it's a walk "on Dad's wishes". It shouldn't be confusing to him as all you're doing is saying "nope, come on with me, we're not sniffing or pulling to sniff/mark" and correct him only if he argues. This teaches him not to argue with you whenever he doesn't get his way. I take Asha on miles long hikes off leash and she does whatever she wants, but if I call her she comes to me and if we run across a stranger I can down her until they pass, then she's up & free again. Point is, I'm always in charge and that's the message she got when she was growing up. It can be fun & games or it can be obeying, but it's always my decision. This should carry over into respect for you and the house. And as @Rits mentioned, your dogs breeding is not as geared to working with people as being independent, so it may be that he needs even more understanding that your house/space is not his to mark, He's young yet and will learn. Keep us posted on his progress, sounds like he's a pretty good boy all around, right?

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I suppose those relatively brief sessions of heel work would qualify as me taking total control of the walk, and yes, there is zero sniffing allowed during a heel and of course zero peeing.

As I write this, I am realizing that while I am running with him, he is not allowed to stop. Well, if he is up next to me (not on a heel) then slows/stops to sniff he gets jerked ahead (and my forward progress jerked to a slower pace for a few seconds) when the end of the leash is reached.

Yes, he is really a good boy in so many ways, and such a good family dog. He is remarkably tolerant and does not tend toward resource guarding. He tolerates hugging around the neck (I know, not a great thing to do). He's a good watchdog and his ability to turn on suspicion simply via me saying a certain word or breathing would do a Doberman proud!

He is a big risk, his breed makeup being so very unknown to me. I will be able to be more and more secure and relaxed about him the older he gets. He's still immature on paper.

Hey, what if the marking was not him exerting dominance or claiming territory or exercising an urge? What if he detected a pest? He has for some time sniffed at the baseboards of a few places of the house. It makes me worry that he is smelling ants. We've had ants in one are of the walls he sniffs. Also: I have him attack (tee hee) and kill these beetles we get in the house. He winds up eating them. I know his breeder says his dogs eat everything they catch. I have a vid of his grandsire munching crunching a mouse. If Zephyr detects one or more of the beetles, say, in a wall or under/behind a cabinet, might he mark?

 

[Ravenbird]

I suppose those relatively brief sessions of heel work would qualify as me taking total control of the walk, and yes, there is zero sniffing allowed during a heel and of course zero peeing.

I'm not talking about heeling, just a nice walk together without him pulling you off the sidewalk to mark. Not a formal heel at all, just your regular walk, sans sniffing. Just like your biking only walking. He want to stop to explore, leash pop and a "no, not now".

If Zephyr detects one or more of the beetles, say, in a wall or under/behind a cabinet, might he mark?

I'd say no. There doesn't seem to be any animalistic reason to mark where insects have crawled.