What action is being taken to save the breed?

Sage024 said:

At what point do official organizations like that step in to save a breed? If it’s been done before with others then surely it can be done with Dobermans. I just wonder at what point do they step in to make the dramatic changes needed.

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That's the question. I literally heard one breeder say "They all die of something". Yes they do. We all do. But it shouldn't be the norm to accept 6, 7, 8 years to become the average lifespan. I use to say why would anyone want a Great Dane? They only live to be 7. Now if a Doberman reaches age 10 they can receive a certificate for longevity from DPCA. 5 years ago when I started looking for another Doberman (after almost 20 years without one) and found this out, it was a shock to me.

Ravenbird said:

That's the question. I literally heard one breeder say "They all die of something". Yes they do. We all do. But it shouldn't be the norm to accept 6, 7, 8 years to become the average lifespan. I use to say why would anyone want a Great Dane? They only live to be 7. Now if a Doberman reaches age 10 they can receive a certificate for longevity from DPCA. 5 years ago when I started looking for another Doberman (after almost 20 years without one) and found this out, it was a shock to me.

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I thought the same thing. My friend and neighbor has a Great Dane, they know their lifespan is only like 8 years. In my head I thought, why would you put yourself through that. But dobermans aren’t far off from that. Yes they all die of something, every breed has their issue, but when they use to live to be 15 years old and now the average is 8, that’s a pretty huge change. Clearly they’re trending in a very wrong direction

Checking in on this- did I read somewhere the Diversity Project is on hold until 2025?
Vet Dr Sophie Lu passed?

BGpa said:

Checking in on this- did I read somewhere the Diversity Project is on hold until 2025?
Vet Dr Sophie Lu passed?

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I have not seen anything about Dr. Lu passing. Googled for obituary and nothing came up, nor does DDP mention it on their website. She is listed as the founder of DDP so I'd think that would be front page information on their website.

@Ravenbird Thanks!
I did same, searched a bit also no joy.
I just cant recall where I read it, or most likely am mis-remembering...

The project does seem to have gone quiet...something about update in 2025?
So maybe an enthusiastic small group but not much wider participation, so waiting on next outcross generation?

I did go back and read about Jazzies mum- dobie/rhodi - and glad she's worked out so well.

Really like the rhodi breed instincts. Had a rhodie-retriever pound puppy given up by an elderly owner when too high drive to manage- with an active family with kids she thrived- one of those couple of special sacred dogs you might be blessed with in a lifetime...

My wife jokes Dolly came back as Bonnie as there are similarities- tricksters!

Sage024 said:

As I wait to take Kanda back for his third Holter (first two failed to record, ugh. Third time is a charm I hope) I have fallen down the rabbit hole of trying to understand how the breed got to a place where there’s so little genetic diversity, such high inbreeding and such a high risk of DCM. Hopefully I’m not being super repetitive here or too out there, so excuse any naive questions I may have or stupid suggestions I may put out there. Kanda is my first dog and first Doberman and I love him to death. I don’t see myself wanting any other breed. Doberman are so incredible and it’s so heartbreaking to find that the breed is in a bad place. I’ve been reading some real doomy things about how the breed may be on its way to extinction in our lifetime, how it’s near impossible to breed out DCM and how extreme measures would need to be taken to improve the health of the breed.

Does anyone know if anything besides research is being done to help save the breed? Are there any breeding programs out there that focus on creating more genetic diversity while preserving breed standard whether that be via outbreeding or crossing? At risk of sounding reaaaally dumb, has anyone out there tried re creating the breed? Like what the original founder did, mixing the breeds suspected of creating the Doberman, to try and create a new pool of genes to mix into the existing pool? Re create the ancestor?

Or are there any programs out there focused solely on breed preservation rather than breeding for show etc. (another really dumb sounding idea here) like saving genetic material from dogs with good pedigree, freezing it and waiting out the dogs lifespan to see if it ever develops DCM and then using that to breed to other dogs with good pedigree or out breed?

I know I’m on a soap box here and throwing out some far fetched ideas, and please feel free to correct me if I’m looking at this issue as more dire than it is. Also feel free to link me to any other threads or studies. I just can’t imagine this breed dying out in my lifetime. Surely there are programs and such out there that would take extreme measures to save the breed. I’ve heard of some pug breeders that are breeding to make pugs healthy again (though I don’t think they’re dealing with genetic diseases but more so breeding out undesirable physical traits like short snouts and such).

Im 26, my dog is 2.5 and I’d want it to be standard that these dogs live to be 15, 16 years old like they use to, not 8 and below. Do I sound crazy? I don’t know some late night and shower thoughts to ponder with you more knowledgeable folk

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There is a study being conducted by the University of Minnesota where they will track a number of dobermans throughout their life to see what factors may contribute to certain illnesses. I emailed them and received a swab in the mail. I haven’t heard anything else. But I’m glad he will be one that they’ll observe. Before that, I dna health tested him with an Embark purebreed health test that checks for any hereditary markets for the most common doberman illnesses.

Rama the protector said:

There is a study being conducted by the University of Minnesota where they will track a number of dobermans throughout their life to see what factors may contribute to certain illnesses.

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Yes both of our dogs are enrolled in that. We got the swabs too but I'm not sure you ever hear the results. Our dogs are both Embark tested as well so it's most likely the same things the Disappearing Doberman Project tests for too.

Rama the protector said:

There is a study being conducted by the University of Minnesota where they will track a number of dobermans throughout their life to see what factors may contribute to certain illnesses. I emailed them and received a swab in the mail. I haven’t heard anything else. But I’m glad he will be one that they’ll observe. Before that, I dna health tested him with an Embark purebreed health test that checks for any hereditary markets for the most common doberman illnesses.

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This looks very interesting:


And:

Updated on this thread
(Dr Sophie Liu is very much alive btw! Whew! My bad... )

Thread 'Longevity discussion with Sophie Lou DDP'
Longevity discussion with Sophie Lou DDP

Just a few quick thoughts:

The AKC is a studbook. Nothing more, nothing less. Studbooks sometimes implement policies at the behest of the country's primary breed-specific organization, in the case of AKC, it's the DPCA. But they won't always do exactly what the breed club wants. I'm sure the DPCA wants all albinoid and z-factor Dobes to be barred from the registry altogether, or only be allowed limited registration until that entire bloodline is extinguished. All the AKC seems willing to do is brand the registration with the "z" prefix because there's money in registering "rare white Dobes." Ugh.

There is no real need for an external outcross. There is still decent health and diversity within the breed, it's just not in lines that were inbred around popular sires. The breeders who went all-in with the Eddie fad have a lot at stake and they seem utterly unwilling to unwind and try internal outcrosses, whether it's with European lines or the more obscure, informally-bred North American lines. That I had a healthy female (Kira) with correct temperament who was on the extremely outbred end of the Doberman spectrum, who lived to almost 12 and didn't have a hint of DCM-related cardiac enlargement, is proof enough that these dogs ARE out there and there IS hope. People just have to look and be serious about doing the health testing & building good pedigree data on those obscure lines. Most folks just dismiss the informally-bred Dobermans as being sickly trash. Some are. Most are healthier and will live longer than a well-bred dog.

kaloric said:

Just a few quick thoughts:

The AKC is a studbook. Nothing more, nothing less. Studbooks sometimes implement policies at the behest of the country's primary breed-specific organization, in the case of AKC, it's the DPCA. But they won't always do exactly what the breed club wants. I'm sure the DPCA wants all albinoid and z-factor Dobes to be barred from the registry altogether, or only be allowed limited registration until that entire bloodline is extinguished. All the AKC seems willing to do is brand the registration with the "z" prefix because there's money in registering "rare white Dobes." Ugh.

There is no real need for an external outcross. There is still decent health and diversity within the breed, it's just not in lines that were inbred around popular sires. The breeders who went all-in with the Eddie fad have a lot at stake and they seem utterly unwilling to unwind and try internal outcrosses, whether it's with European lines or the more obscure, informally-bred North American lines. That I had a healthy female (Kira) with correct temperament who was on the extremely outbred end of the Doberman spectrum, who lived to almost 12 and didn't have a hint of DCM-related cardiac enlargement, is proof enough that these dogs ARE out there and there IS hope. People just have to look and be serious about doing the health testing & building good pedigree data on those obscure lines. Most folks just dismiss the informally-bred Dobermans as being sickly trash. Some are. Most are healthier and will live longer than a well-bred dog.

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This had an eye-opening effect on me. I had been of the mind that the breed probably needed outcrossing. Your point is well taken. Unfortunately, it goes against breeders' desires to build their own lines and stick with them, or those they've used.

I recently became aware, however, that one of the working-line Dobe breeders in America is going to do a breeding that will be a blend of working and Euro confo. lines (which have some working titles). The working lines often have good longevity, but not always of course. I have found working lines to be physically tough and not prone to injury. I've also found them to be largely unimpressive looking and not all that attractive.

Both my working Dobes died in their 8th year. So did my hobby-bred first Dobe.

Oh Little Oji said:

This had an eye-opening effect on me. I had been of the mind that the breed probably needed outcrossing. Your point is well taken. Unfortunately, it goes against breeders' desires to build their own lines and stick with them, or those they've used.

I recently became aware, however, that one of the working-line Dobe breeders in America is going to do a breeding that will be a blend of working and Euro confo. lines (which have some working titles). The working lines often have good longevity, but not always of course. I have found working lines to be physically tough and not prone to injury. I've also found them to be largely unimpressive looking and not all that attractive.

Both my working Dobes died in their 8th year. So did my hobby-bred first Dobe.

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The main concern I'd have about outcrossing is that the endearing personality traits that make Dobes special would be at risk. I'm really torn on losing anything except for the health problems, but then again, something's got to give. It might come to that. It might be necessary to infuse some very compatible other breed in to solve some of the problems.

I really worry about internal outcrosses with Euro exhibition lines. They had the worst longevity among all the cohorts which were featured in the recent Doberman Diversity Project longevity study, and it was by a significant margin. But since working lines are also Euro, the longevity effect seen in the study that North American-European "hybrids" experienced likely wouldn't come into play. The benefit seems to come from blending the runs of homozygosity which are somewhat different between European Dobes and NA Dobes, regardless of discipline in their respective cohorts.

One thing I do wonder about is the history on the UK Dobermans. They weren't assigned disciplines, the population may not have been large enough to do so, but they probably have a background in exhibition or working from mainland European lines. If they're basically European exhibition lines, then UK breeders have been doing a pretty good job of not falling into the traps of negligent that the other exhibition line breeders in NA and Europe have.

I agree, the Euro working lines are generally a lot more coarse and blocky, they have wet mouths, and are pushing twice the physical size of vintage Dobes. When they're crossed with NA exhibition lines, though, and I think there's a good chance that's a majority of the "hybrids" featured in the study, the result is generally a fairly refined, but substantial Dobe, which also is more likely to have a stable temperament. Maybe not a real working aptitude level of temperament and drive, but at least not bad to the level of being a fault as so many are.

No breeder in Spain is trying to actively improve this breed's health issues, specially DCM; apart from Dobermann de Covalta. He's trying to find healthy lines, with very little inbreeding, but they are all working line dobermans. (He's bred Dobermanns for 40+ years).

"They all have to die of something" that's their mindset, they just want the biggest and tallest Doberman out there, even if it dies at 5. And people keep coming back to these so called "breeders" after their last Dobermann died, further supporting their awful breeding.

I'm terrified of DCM, I want Draco to live a long healthy life; I know a female Dobermann from my neighborhood named "Vaina" and she's turning 12! She's in perfect health conditions, next time I see them I will ask where they got her from and if she has a pedigree, to see what lines she comes from.

There's another one that I haven't seen in some time, a male who was 11, he had a bit of trouble getting up, but was really healthy too, kept on playing and running.

There are good healthy Dobies out there, very few, but they still exist...it's just heartbreaking to see such an amazing breed disappear due to stupid people.

kaloric said:

the Euro working lines are generally a lot more coarse and blocky, they have wet mouths, and are pushing twice the physical size of vintage Dobes.

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True European working dogs - IGP3 and championship level - are not at all to be confused with the Euro hyper types. Not the same lines at all. The ones I see that truly do the work are not the type you describe.

DracoDobie said:

"They all have to die of something" that's their mindset

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I literally saw (read in print) a breeder say that, referring to concerns about longevity. I lost all respect, then and there.

DracoDobie said:

it's just heartbreaking to see such an amazing breed disappear due to stupid people.

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It is. I share your sentiments and more horrifically there are many people out there trying to do everything right and still it goes to sh!t. I know more now than ever, but it's still a crap shoot. 5 years ago, I did all my research that I knew how, parents health tested, decent longevity in the family, outcross from top & bottom lines. Then Asha's sire died of sudden death before he was 8. I look at her every day trying to convince myself that she will see her 10th birthday. This dog is everything to me as I'm sure Draco is to you, and everyone else's dog is to them.

Ravenbird said:

True European working dogs - IGP3 and championship level - are not at all to be confused with the Euro hyper types. Not the same lines at all. The ones I see that truly do the work are not the type you describe.


I literally saw (read in print) a breeder say that, referring to concerns about longevity. I lost all respect, then and there.


It is. I share your sentiments and more horrifically there are many people out there trying to do everything right and still it goes to sh!t. I know more now than ever, but it's still a crap shoot. 5 years ago, I did all my research that I knew how, parents health tested, decent longevity in the family, outcross from top & bottom lines. Then Asha's sire died of sudden death before he was 8. I look at her every day trying to convince myself that she will see her 10th birthday. This dog is everything to me as I'm sure Draco is to you, and everyone else's dog is to them.

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Thanks @Ravenbird for your summary.
I recall reading the US breeders decided to breed for a temperament that was less fierce than the Euro standard in Germany, to the point judges were bit but it was ok? Sometime in the 50's?

If I were looking for another I'd be interested in learning more. There is one breeder who posts a lot of really useful stuff on the other forum, who is using Euro stock in American lines and seems to be in demand..."Kansadobe" iirc.

I was reminded of your comment on what buyers want- and in my entirely unscientific review of dobie owners and others with "big strong dogs" that I see in nice affluent muni dogparks, on trails, at HomeDepotDogpark and cafes with patios, the vast majority are common crosses from rescues and low end "byb" dobies. Plus doodles. Oodles.

Dont know what that customer base is relative to show dogs but clearly the free market is speaking.

Ravenbird said:

True European working dogs - IGP3 and championship level - are not at all to be confused with the Euro hyper types. Not the same lines at all. The ones I see that truly do the work are not the type you describe

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YES!! They are not the same lines at all! Of course, some show euro lines can work, but most of them are hypertypes so...



This is "Ito de Covalta", 21 months old and already has his IGP III.
No hypertype. He's not blocky, not heavy, just tall and super athletic. A true euro working line, at least the kind we have in Europe.

These dogs are far healthier than euro show lines...there's no comparison, sorry.

Thanks Draco. Appreciate the euro working experience you share.

Given that LEO and MIL users have shifted to GSDs and Malinois, what would you say is best proof of Dobe working talent; IGP or ?

BG1 said:

Given that LEO and MIL users have shifted to GSDs and Malinois, what would you say is best proof of Dobe working talent; IGP or ?

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Working talent is a broad term - gets into a lot of detail of defense and prey. Bite sports are all a game, but they test good nerve over everything else. Early stages it's a game to the dog, but as it gets tougher the helper (decoy) begins putting pressure on the dog, pushing back at the dog, making it harder for the dog to "win". It's also tons of obedience. A very good test, yes, and tons of fun. Many Dobermans can't take the pressure when that gets introduced. LEO & MIL? Dobermans were bred specifically for personal protection. The marine photos you see of Dobes in WWII were used primarily for silent messenger dogs, rarely ever in combat. So maybe @DracoDobie can add more or correct me if I've misspoken, but that's how I've come to understand it.

BG1 said:

Thanks Draco. Appreciate the euro working experience you share.

Given that LEO and MIL users have shifted to GSDs and Malinois, what would you say is best proof of Dobe working talent; IGP or ?

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My last two Dobes came from working breeders who specialized in IGP (IPO, Schuthzund).

They both possessed the ability to full-mouth bite (including lunging in and wedging the jaws around the article).

They were bold, confident Dobes, though my second one did show timidity over walks after dark and having strangers oncoming – this, only when quite young. As with many dog breeders, the breeder lives in a rural setting and I think the transition to my higher density setting was totally unfamiliar.

They had little to no "back down" in them. They showed no fear in confrontations.

They were physically durable.

The learning ability was on par with pretty much all Dobes (which is excellent), and their biddability was great.

Their noses and scenting capability were great.

I would probably rather have a Dobe from proven working lines in personal protection instead of, or in addition to, IGP; but IGP titles on many of their ancestry does ensure you will get a solid working Dobe.

Their physical appearance tends to be not so great, and their intiidation factor less, owing to that. On the other hand I could point you to videos of my last Dobe's reaction to anyone coming up onto my porch. His diminutive frame was not much of a factor in those situations. They carried themselves with extreme alertness and proud, intense carriage at all times when out of the house.

Ravenbird said:

So maybe @DracoDobie can add more or correct me if I've misspoken, but that's how I've come to understand it.

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There's nothing to be corrected, because I think the same way as you!.
What I'm seeing in Dobermanns lately (at least in my country) is a lack of workability and VERY weak nerves. Most Dobermanns won't be able to handle the decoys pressure, and will cower behind their owners. Same thing, if there's a threat coming to them or their owners, they'll be all bark no bite.

Breeders aren't focusing on workability, they only focus on producing perfect family dogs, who love all strangers. All the Dobermanns I've met loved strangers, meanwhile Draco...not at all. But with that being said...

I've heard "Dobermans ain't crap"

"I hate working these dogs"

"They can't work" but the truth is, imo, even a monkey can work a Malinois (of course great trainers can get them to another level so absolutely no hate) but a Dobermann is a very special breed that few trainers can help release their full potential. Their mind is more complex, they don't function the same way, and IGP, PSA and such focus more on let's say "prey drive" which gives herding breeds a clear advantage. Dobermanns were created as PPD, and TRUE working lines, excell at it, they always get the highest score in protection (in my country) and are absolute beasts. Draco will NOT run away from a threat, he will not hesitate to fight a dog or person who's actively trying to hurt me, my sister or his brother.
He's full working line from what I've been told (and seen) so it makes a huge difference.
The two Dobermann hypertypes in our park are huge cowards, and bark hiding under their owners legs, tail tucked behind their paws.

Just the other day, Bran (my other red dobie) got into a fight with a German Sheperd, and before I knew it Draco joined the fight, he pinned the German Sheperd down, giving him fake bites, and made him run away from us. The German Sheperd was COMPLETELY fine, no damage at all, and Draco was as cool as a cucumber, playing but keeping an eye on it. They were all off leash, it's legal here, but the German Sheperd came in full force attack/dominant mood, running at full speed towards us and Bran. Draco did not let him approach us again, nor his owner (who's an idiot btw).

He's defended my younger sister before, when our uncle came into our house unotified, my sister heard noises and went to look around, Draco followed her, and saw my uncle (he was wearing all black) and he went for him, no hesitation. He did not hurt him because I was there and screamed "DRACO OUT" which he did, once he realised who that was, it was over and he was back to his dumb self. But it's safe to say, we almost got a heart attack lol.

Sorry for the rant, I think Dobermanns are GREAT PPD, but breeders are ruining the breed, and it's original purpose. They have no workability, no health, and are mastiff wannabe couch potatoes. I personally don't like that.