Why is raw feeding so hard for the neophyte to understand?

[Denissov43]

Raw feeding is easier and simpler than anyone thinks and the ability to give proper nutrition through real food is self explanatory.
Dry kibble has to be supplimented with vitamins because all of the food is dead by heat and processing, therefore feeding a dry food that is NOT supplemented regularly with "raw Real live" food is NOT a balanced diet for a canid.... they need raw meat, plain and simple.. they need to chew on bones and eat raw meat and raw bones to have a properly balanced diet as a canid. Its just that simple.
Dog food companies would like you to believe otherwise, which is why that dog food industry is multi BILLION dollar industry world wide.
We have gotten lazy and we think that since we have learned by the process of 'social agreement' that dog food comes in a bag and is made by a company called a "Dog Food company" that they are the professionals and we are the laymen and we could not possibly have the common sense to feed a carnivore what a carnivore eats in the wild... that would be ridiculous.. wouldn't it?
not really....
Carnivores eat meat... primary consumption is flesh, bone and organs of other animals.
Canids are decendents of the wolf and in the womb, they are still a wolf... when they are born, they are still related to the wolf and consume milk from their mother till she would go out and kill something for them to eat and bring it back for them to consume... they dont bring back something in a bag and pour a few cups into a pan for them to eat now do they? that would be silly...
so why do Dog owners have such a hard time accepting that what the do in the wild is what we should do for them since they have us to provide for them? Why is the concept of feeding a dog raw meat, bones, flesh and varied sources of it including fish so difficult to understand as being GOOD for their dogs and better for them than a bag of kibble?
I just dont get it?

 

[Che_mar_cody]

I don't get it either, but some people are just grossed out by the raw food/parts, etc. My biggerst thing was chicken feet (nails and all) LOL
Price is a bigger too for some people as raw is quite pricey at times. I have to laugh at times when my cart is getting filled with meat and the grocery clerk will say stocking up huh? I tell her no, it's for my dog.
The face is priceless. The benefits of raw so overweigh kibble.

 

[Denissov43]

Che Mar:
LOL! I am a vegetarian.... LOL! so I stock up on meat and pile it on the counter and then tell the checker I am a Vegetarian and this is for my dogs and people's eyes get wide as saucers! They say "You feed your dog RAW meat?" and I laugh and say "What would they be eating if I was not around to feed them?" every time their face gets that 'AHa moment" and a conversation usually begins on how they can also start feeding their dog 'Real food'.... I love that experience!!
Added: Jan 25, 2011 at 2:40 PM
My peke's eat raw meat... they love to gnaw on a chicken wing... its so funny because these guys were rescued from Puppy mills and I know they only got horrible cheap kibble all their life...
Now my peke's love raw chicken wings, and raw turkey burger and hamburger.. their little jaws have a hard time with anything larger than a chicken wing.
But they had runny stools all the time when I first got them, now.. never... little tiny light colored tootsie rolls! LOL

 

[bythenight]

I am glad you brought this up because I have some questions. I am interested in feeding raw, but don't know enough about it yet.

If my dog has been eating kibble, how do you transition to a raw diet? (he is on TOTW)

I am a vegetarian also, and I worry about meat because of bacteria, hormones, etc. This is probably a stupid question, but are there ever cases where dogs got sick from raw meat?

Is feeding Orijen close enough?

How much does a raw diet really cost?

What does the feeding routine look like? Do you have to feed outside?

I'm trying to get a good picture of what it's really like, and if it is something that I can manage to work into my routine. At this point, I feel like I am one of the only people I know who doesn't feed raw

 

[Katja Henriksen]

I usually don't get into these discussions as there is no point. Both sides have their opinions and there is no changing them.

However.....

First of all, the dog is an omnivore, not a carnivore as stated. Cats are carnivores as they can not survive without meat. Dog can eat anything and even be vegetarians and do just fine.

Second of all, I like the way all RAW feeders say that people just follow what the dog food companies say. Where do all of you RAW feeders have your information? I am sure you haven't done your own research but listen to what somebody else tells you etc. I understand that you find that it makes more sense to feed raw etc. but that doesn't make the alternative (dog food) bad. I have no problem with people feeding raw or whatever they want, what I don't like is the way RAW feeders think they are the ones with the right answer and everyone who feeds kibble are idiots. Again it is the 'experts' on RAW that make the arguments that the dog food industry is bad bla bla bla, I have heard the same old thing from everyone that feeds RAW. And yes the dog food industry is a multi billion dollar industry as in the US alone there are $77.5 million dogs to feed, so do the math. Keep in mind that a lot of that money (at least as far as the top brands are concerned) is used on research. If your dog has kidney issues, or some other disease that could be helped by food from the vet, wouldn't you consider feeding that? I don't think it is fair to make people think they are less good dog parents because they feed kibble and not RAW, which is the general consensus among RAW feeders. They are like missionaries. It's wonderful to have the resource and be able to ask for advice etc. about RAW feeding but I wish that RAW feeders would stop trying to convert everyone. It's like with religion. Don't try to convert the people who don't believe the same as you.

Anyway, that would be my 2 cents, and to all of you kibble feeders out there. Don't feel bad about not feeding RAW. We don't all have to convert and I am sure you love you dogs and do the very best for them anyway. In regards to various qualities of kibble that is another subject all together.

 

[AandK]

I don't get it either, but some people are just grossed out by the raw food/parts, etc. My biggerst thing was chicken feet (nails and all) LOL
Price is a bigger too for some people as raw is quite pricey at times. I have to laugh at times when my cart is getting filled with meat and the grocery clerk will say stocking up huh? I tell her no, it's for my dog.
The face is priceless. The benefits of raw so overweigh kibble.

The checkers were always confused with why the heck I bought so much chicken too.. I would get it on sale at Wal Mart and fill my deep freeze every month or so.

 

[Denissov43]

Katja:
the discussion as to whether dogs are 'true omnivores' or 'carnivores' is still up and debated.. however, it is an argument that can be substantiated on either side, under the semantics of the following:
Dogs CAN eat anytyhing as is evidenced by the fact that for the past 60 years Dog Food companies have been doing their damndest to prove that dogs are Omnivores and doing their damndest to get the average citizen to "Believe their research"....
However in recent years (past 30 or so) many of us have stopped taking their words for it and started going the research, along with a vast majority of science, doctors, educators and dog 'professionals' on board.
So to argue with you about whether dogs are 'omnivores' or carnivores? not gonna go there...
My choice is made and its to disagree; they are carnivores and will be carnivores as long as they are Canids...
Regarding 'social agreement' on the issue, I would further disagree with you regarding Raw feeders, because most of US have done our/the research and thats why we are raw feeders.
Social consensus dominantes the world of NON raw feeders far more aggressively and people still fight for their right to believe whatever they are passionate about. If you are passionate about feeding processed food to your dog, god bless you! as long as you aware whats in the particular brand of bag you choose to scoop your pets food out of.
Its all about quality.... thats the bottom line.

Regarding Aand K's statement:
Dogs die of processed food related issues 100 times more often than the rare, occassional cases of dogs dying from a splintered bone because that particular feeder did not know not to feed their dog CUT SHARP bones from a standard butcher/ human cut meats.
Dogs die from allergy related, food recall related, poisoned food source related and failure resist things like cancer, tumors, immune related issues all resulting from a processed food diet that they NATURE never intended them to eat...
they die from being hit by cars and by failure to be properly cared for 1000's of times more often than the rare occasional case of a 'splintered/fractured bone' in their digestive tract. so not feeding your dog the raw quality meat he needs to have a truly balanced and healthy diet because of one persons careless choice NOT to be more knowledgeable about what/how to give your dog this essential element of his diet, is hardly a reason not to... its a poor reason at best...

 

[Casi]

Raw feeding is something I've always wanted to do but it won't be for awhile before I could actually afford to feed it. I can hardly afford meat for my own family, let alone exclusively for the dogs. Whatever I can afford to feed my dogs is what they get. Right now they are being fed Diamonds High Energy...when I had more money over the summer they ate Diamonds Naturals. I'm still confused about RAW and Prey Model feeding though.

 

[DreamValley]

It's easy to determine if your dog is omnivores or carnivores. Let him/her to choose between veggies, carbs and meat.
What do you think your dog will eat first?

I fed my Dobermans dog food, cooked food and raw. They loved whatever I gave them if they didn't know better.

I feed Gino meat/organs/bones in ratio 80/10/10. He doesn't like veggies (any). I juice them and mix with his food. I believe chlorophylle is good for dogs.
If Gino had a choice he would eat meat only.

While feeding raw I noticed:
- he never begs for food when we are eating
- he never picks up garbage on our walks
- he doesn't take treats from people
- he is slim with well-developed muscles
He gets enough nutritions from his raw food. His coat is shiny and silky. His gums are pink and healthy looking.

Cons: It's hard to keep weight on a dog when you feed raw.
Pros: Less poop to pick up That's a good proof dog food has a lot junk in it.

I agree dog owners should have a choice. It's much more comfortable to feed kibble.
Feeding raw takes more time and effort. Nobody likes bloody meat and cleaning after. Do you like a smell?! Oh... tripe stinks!
Kibble is the only choice for people who travel a lot.

I don't believe raw food makes dog healthier... maybe happier

 

[Che_mar_cody]

Ok let me clear the air. I feed 50/50. Nothing wrong with kibble if it's a good kibble. Benefits of me feeding raw? and being HEALTHIER?
My dog has never had and doesn't need a dental. His teeth are awesome and turning 12 this year that's pretty awesome and he has everyone! Now take into consideration that greys have no dental care and really BAD teeth when you adopt them. Others, like above stated. tootsie rolls. I'm big on less poo to clean up in the yard. So were speaking of butt issues I've never had to have anal glad expressed either. The bone takes care of that. Now onto coats, dander. After feeding raw my boy has the best coat ever, no dander. A good coat comes from the inside out (good kibble or raw)
Next and this issues is discussed in another threat - BLOAT. Cody had stage one bloat and if not for Ohio State Vet I would have lost him. With raw he doesn't inhale the food, he has to work for it and thus eats it slower. Also, he drinks SOOOOO much less with raw.
Please note (maybe a greyhound thing) but those in the greyhound world that feed raw, also feed veggies. My boy loves cantalope, apples, green beans and few others.
Also nuts are a great source of protein without meat, and yes my boy has picked up raw nuts dropped from trees and had a snack.

I think there is a lot of misconseption about raw. Dreamvalley, of course my boy would chase that squirrel/rabbit or bird and eat it if it got in my yard in a heartbeat, it's what he likes. He's a great hunter and my yard has less "critters" due to his prey drive. I've never had a problem with the weight issue with Cody on raw or when we crossed over to the 50/50 feeding.

On conclusion, if you feed just kibble, fine...make sure it's a good kibble and the company doesn't involve animal testing or abuse. I'm a firm believer in raw = healthier and according to my vet "just keep doing what your doing because he's in great shape for an old guy" I know what it has done for my boy, that's enough proof for me.

If you have any intentions on feeding raw, start small. A little package of hearts and gizzards from the grocery store won't cost you but 1 -2 bucks and if feed as treats you won't have any issues. Don't feel bad about doing kibble and raw. I've been doing it for years. For me raw doesn't have to be just meat...just not kibble alone as it's processed by man.
A dog in the wild can and has eaten veggies, raw game, etc. This is what I want to simulate..the natural eating habits of dog....

 

[Denissov43]

Raw feeding is something I've always wanted to do but it won't be for awhile before I could actually afford to feed it. I can hardly afford meat for my own family, let alone exclusively for the dogs. Whatever I can afford to feed my dogs is what they get. Right now they are being fed Diamonds High Energy...when I had more money over the summer they ate Diamonds Naturals. I'm still confused about RAW and Prey Model feeding though.

Casi:
prey model feeding and raw feeding is one and the same with a 'new name'...
nothing mysterious about it...
and to those who have taken a defensive posture in defense of their 'feeding model' with respect to my information:
I see people here taking a really "Hard defensive posture'... about 'what they are feeding their dogs'' as if my information and opinions were directed right at them in some "critical" demeaning fashion...
that kind of interpretation is coming from someplace other than me... My position is not accusatory nor is my tone or my words or my information.
so, If you are offended by an anonymous persons ideas that differ from yours, perhaps its time to take a look at your current beliefs and check in with yourself and see if they are really yours and why?
The information articulated here is the opinion and belief of myself, and many others who like myself were disgusted with the news/information regarding the Dog food industry/ big businesses approach to and for selling us something, a bill of goods... their bill of goods... Historically dog food as a business has only been around for about 50 years... Purina started their campaign to 'sell us their product' back when I was just born... in the late 50's.. they had the bright idea to sell not only pig chow and chicken feed, but to use that same formula and sell "Dog Chow"... the "Dog Chow" campaign started by selling the idea that they were the authorities on feeding animals and that the average person was not. They started the campaign that 'Dog food was a balanced diet for dogs'.. they also started the campaign to make those who fed their dogs 'people food' to be 'hicks from the sticks'... Sophisticated "people' fed their dogs 'Dog chow"... and the campaign (which was created by an advertising agency not the FDA, not the Veterinary college, not the animal nutritionists of america) but an Ad Agency created and started the "idea' that dogs should NOT eat "people food' because that was not a balanced diet.. so the entire belief system that 'we as a aggregate of people believe' is a 'notion, not a truth mind you but a notion that was created from an ad campaign to sell this new idea "Dog chow" to the american people...
I guess they were successful, since many of you would not even think to feed your dog raw food because you have bought into the ad campaign, not the truth about what is 'good for your dog' and what is not good for him/her.
I posted my thread here IN the RAW foods 'thread' so as NOT to offend.. but to share information...and because when I posted my thread in a K9 Nutrion thread several fellow Dobie lovers got offended and defensive about my opinions...
so I took their advice and posted a thread elsewhere...
and still I find that people want to defend their position as if it were a sacred place of hallowed ground...
its not something that needs to be defended or fought over..
Either you are welcoming new and uncharted new to you, information and are interested in learning how to do something different and see that maybe its worth looking into because contrary to what Purina and the Dog Food industry 'says'... people food IS dog food... or more archaically, the world is not really flat after all... or you are not...
but hey... its not worth getting 'upset' over and spending time defending what you feel is your very best effort for your dogs...
I know you love them, that goes without saying!
I am not accusing anyone of having less love and care for their dogs than I do!
I simply do not buy the "load of hogwash' that the Dog Food companies have been selling for 60 years now.
I simply prefer to feed my dog the natural way and that is how they would feed themselves if we were not here to feed them..

 

[DreamValley]

I agree coat, teeth and anal glands benefit from raw feeding. I highly doubt it will cure DCM, cancer, liver problems, wobblers, etc

 

[Denissov43]

cancer and liver problems yes...
Wobblers and DCM are congenital...
but natural diets supports the natural immune systems are they are stronger, longevity is going to be affected and overall well being resistance to disease and tumors, allergies and more is alleviated and supported by natural raw feeding.
Dobies are susceptible to congenital defects like every other purebred dog and if generations are to improve nutrition and diet must improve in a large demographic of dogs. health breeds health.
its all good!

 

[DreamValley]

I am going to do full blood test for Gino to check his liver enzymes. Raw meat makes liver work hard.
Is not a liver disease congenital?

Also, cancer... we don't eat dog food but................

 

[Dobs4ever]

(quote)the discussion as to whether dogs are 'true omnivores' or 'carnivores' is still up and debated.. however, it is an argument that can be substantiated on either side, under the semantics of the following: (qu0te)

If it is still up for debate then seems neither side can lay down the law so to speak. I have known dogs that do very well on raw and I know some that did not. Same with Kibble - Each dog is different but our dogs are far far removed for wolves and wild dogs so their system is different.

For me personally and it is a personal decision that each has to make for themselves - I prefer kibble because when traveling to shows etc is is much easier. Nationals is usually over a week so after showing all day I don't want to have to go to the store to get raw.

For people who only have pets it probably does not matter since they are at home to deal with it daily.

There are plenty of dogs who have lived long lives on some of the worse kibble I have ever seen. I do prefer a good quality but don't think any one person has the complete answer and don't think you can critize others because they see it a little differently.

It has been my experience if you as 10 people 10 querstions you will be lucky to get them to agree on 5. People are different and dogs are different. Each has the right to make their own decisions and who am I to chastize them for something that is still being debated????

 

[Marinegeekswife]

and to those who have taken a defensive posture in defense of their 'feeding model' with respect to my information:
I see people here taking a really "Hard defensive posture'... about 'what they are feeding their dogs'' as if my information and opinions were directed right at them in some "critical" demeaning fashion...
that kind of interpretation is coming from someplace other than me... My position is not accusatory nor is my tone or my words or my information.
so, If you are offended by an anonymous persons ideas that differ from yours, perhaps its time to take a look at your current beliefs and check in with yourself and see if they are really yours and why?

Um, whoa! Back up for a second. You need to remember that you are on a forum here. And while in some thread somewhere you explained your weird use of bolding, italicizing, and capitalizing, not everyone has read that post and the general ideas for posting online is that those same textual emphasis tools make you come across as yelling, too intense, accusatory, and a flat out jerk a lot of times. That combined with statements like those above are going to put you in a very bad light. Ever heard the saying you catch more flies with honey? You'll get your point across a lot better if you don't rant so much, use normal text, and don't throw out attacks like that (whether you mean them as attacks or not they are coming across that way). What you're doing will put anyone on the defensive when they read it and therefore less receptive to what you have to say. When posting online nobody can read anything more to your inflections than what you put on the page.

 

[Ingrid H]

I'll stick strictly to the question posed in the title of this thread...

As a person who was a neophyte at raw feeding at one time, I can say that when I was researching raw feeding I found tons of conflicting information. Sifting through websites and all the published books I bought on the subject was really confusing, and I had nobody to talk to in person on the subject. So yes, raw feeding was very hard for this neophyte to understand at first Once I had started feeding raw and got into the routine, it was actually quite simple and not a whole lot of extra work. Had I not gotten a second dog, I'd probably still be doing it since Ladybug did so well on the diet. But two dogs would double the expense and work. They are on kibble and doing well.

 

[Katja Henriksen]

Well I guess my dogs get a bit of raw feeding when they go out and catch mice and moles. Ha ha ha They chomp them down with a grin on their face. We also feed the occasional lamb shank or marrow bone etc. as a treat and giving them something to do.

Marinegeeksvife I totally agree.

 

[TrinityDobes]

Denissov43 - converstation and debate are best when conducted with mutual respect - calling those that don't agree with your point of view "neophytes: automatically will pit those of opposing viewpoints on the defensive, especially since quite a few on this forum are not "new or beginners or undeducated" in the world of dogs and feeding - so labeling those that don't understand your position on raw as "new with the inferrance that they are lacking in experience and knowledge", sets the debate up on poor footing at the outset - you are forcing those that engage in this dicussion to be on the defensive and when that happens the tone turns adversarial.

Lets get this back on a level playing field and lets discuss Raw Feeding calmly, taking the opportunity to share your knowledge on the subject. ok?

On the other thread that you abandoned, I responed and am going to copy that text here. At the end I asked you a few questions, and I would appreciate it if you could respond with a reply that provides, books or research studies that you used in support of your statements, or if your position is based solely on your personal experience and your statements are "your opinion" based on your personal experience that is fine. Please just be clear and share with the group the research you have done that has helped form your decision to feed raw food.

Instead of getting bogged down in whether it is right or wrong, good or bad -how about you share what you know about successfully feeding a Raw regimen. Where you get your raw protein, and fat etc. This has the makings of a great discussion and an opportunity for people to learn.

Dennisove43 - Namaste

IMHO I don't think there is one right or wrong way to feed your dog, cat or family, so that you, as its caregiver can feel good about meeting their daily nutrition needs

I will beg to challenge the statement that "Dry kibble has to be supplimented with vitamins because all of the food is dead by heat and processing, therefore feeding a dry food that is NOT supplemented regularly with "raw Real live" food is NOT a balanced diet for a canid...." Purina, has probably the longest record for research and development for dog food, horse food, rabbit food, etc. I think it a bit over to the top to think that the scientist they employ are perpetrating a huge fraud on the general public, and as much as I try and do my research and feed the best food I can afford to feed, I have to tell you I get my considerable sized nickers in a huge twist when I visit my relatives in the "country" (still the USA, but they don't really speak the language if you know what I mean *grin*) and I see their labs, dobes, rotties, GSDs, beagles and chihuahuas living to be 15+ and they are fed OLE ROY when the relatives are flush, and the rest of the time they are eating whats left over from the family table. Now this is the country and those dogs (Not the chihuahua *LOL*) have been known to steal eggs, catch rabbits and eat the odd chicken or duck that has wandered too far from the goose that protects them all *LOL*

I guess what I am trying to say is that I am not convinced that processed food that has been research and tested to meet minimal nutritional requirements based on species is factually detrimental as opposed to feeding raw food. I do feel feeding raw is more of a challenge because its your responsiblity to ensure the daily raw diet has the right amount of calories, the right amount of fat, minerals and vitamins and the right balance of those ingredients in any one serving. For instance, all dogs need calcium and phosphorus in a certain ratio to be balanced. How do you determine that you are meeting this need in the proper balance without doing any testing? are you pulling blood to be sure that you do not have a calcium over load or a sugar imbalance? I know some raw feeders feed chicken necks or backs daily with the raw meat protein source, and I know some raw feeders who only feed necks every other day, and then some only 2 days a weak, each swearing they are meeting the calcium requirement needed by their dog. Without a lab or the ability to test the exact same portion every time you feed to ensure you have the exact weight and the excact proportion of protein, fat and bone - how can you so equivocally say that because it is raw, the diet you have chosen to feed your dog is better than the processed food that has scientist, years of research and portion testing?

In closing, dogs in the wild do eat raw meat, they also eat the hide, the feathers, the beaks, the feet, the eyeballs and the intestines. Dogs left to their own devices in the wild will also eat horse and cow manure while its still steaming, hell any type of manure and they will also eat horse hooves and other less than appetizing things too.

In fact in the wild the wolves eat the stomach and its contents FIRST! So I guess my question to you is.... since your desire is to feed your dog as it would be fed in the wild as opposed to processed kibble, do you also include daily portions of hide, hair, feathers, beaks, feet, intestines etc? or are you selective and self limiting in the protein, fat source provided? If you are selective then how do you know you are getting it right?

Would you share with us a typical weeks menu and what the percentage of protein, fat, vitamins, minerals etc is contained in each portion and how did you figure it out?​

 

[bythenight]

I don't know if anyone was able to answer any of my questions, but if so, please just let me know.

I can't stand to read through all of this back and forth bickering over facts and opinions. Sorry but true