Seemingly Random Reactivity in 3yr Female Dobe

[lunathetuna97]

Hi everyone,

I apologize in advance for this lengthy post! I own a three year old American Doberman named Luna. For the past year or so, we've been dealing with some reactivity from her that we're struggling to understand/find solutions for.

Some background because I think it's important to preface the above message:
We've had Luna since 9 weeks old; I met her parents, who had relaxed dispositions and were family dogs. I knew right away when I brought her home that she was a nervous girl. It took a lot of step by step exposure and socialization to get her to walk in public and not pancake out on the sidewalk. We eventually moved past the overwhelming anxiety she seemed to feel outside and we began taking her everywhere with us (other people's houses, pet stores, parks, restaurants, etc) and we went through an 8 week basic obedience class with a trainer. Her trainer utilizes prong collars, which she responded well to. After she graduated from obedience, there was a period of time when she was so well-behaved in public that people thought she was a service dog. Her only behavioural "issues" were being a bit too excited off leash and being a bit overwhelming to small dogs and old people. But, other than that, she was wonderful.

Fast forward to the last year or so: we began to notice pretty intense territorial behaviors from her in the yard. She has a long lead outside since we have no fence and so when she sees a neighborhood dog she goes nuts and runs at them until she's at the end of her lead and just barks. However, I learned that if I got ahead of the reaction (in other words, get a handle on her collar and get her in a sit command), she would just growl a bit and leave it at that. However, things have slowly escalated over the last year. She's now sometimes weird with my fiancé's male friends who come to visit, but very selectively. Usually, if we greet someone at the door she's ecstatic and she brings them toys. However, we had one experience where our friend (tall guy, 30 year old guy) came in the house with a hood on since it was raining. She did not like him at all and would growl and rush him when he moved or spoke. We tried locking her away upstairs since her crate is downstairs in the living room, but I think that made it worse. I kept her on her leash next to me, and she quieted. The next morning (he stayed the night), she greeted him like they had been lifelong best friends. It was so strange.

Another incident was at the vet- she actually doesn't mind the vet because I made a point to take her a lot when she was little just to get a treat and pets from the staff to acclimate her to the vet. We go for her yearly and she's great the entire time, including getting her temp taken and getting SHOTS, but as I'm checking out at the front and she's doing her usual begging for attention from the techs, she randomly freaked out on a female tech. She didn't try to bite or anything, but she took a step back and kind of did a double take and then was barking at her in a similar defensive way that she does in our yard. It scared everyone and I was a little rattled because it seemed so random, especially since she had been the one originally engaging with the techs and asking for pets. This has also happened another time, when we were saying hi to some old family friends in my parent's neighborhood.

She's recently moved past defensive barking in our yard and attempted to nip someone who was walking on the sidewalk. My back was turned tying my shoe and he came up kind of suddenly and she was going after him and I had to grab her. Luckily, she was on a lead and the guy was super nice. We spoke after and she was acting like everything was totally normal, even wagged her nub at the guy and was otherwise relaxed once we were talking.

I've noticed that these incidents only occur when I'm with her. She's our only dog and we're a young couple, so she's our baby. But her dog walker and trainer, who has a doggie day school program for their group class graduates, says she's perfectly friendly and not at all defensive or territorial when they interact with her/walk her. I know that the Doberman breed was originally bred to protect a single person (a tax collector) and so sometimes these issues can arise when she feels like she's protecting me.

Aside from this issue, she's an absolute angel. She's wonderful at home alone, is super affectionate and sweet, is generally great to take with me places, and loves my family and friends. I don't want this issue to cause me to stop taking her places or doing fun things with her and I am 100% sure that she can feel my anxiety when we're out and about now and I am sure that does not help.

I guess my question is what we do from here? Does anyone else here have any experience with this and did you figure something out? I've been looking into getting training, but I am not comfortable sending her away to some 2 week board and train for a multitude of reasons, the biggest being our issues are in my home and when I'm around. I also feel overwhelmed when looking at all the different training techniques and I am not sure which would be best for her and her breed. I want private, in-home training, but the quotes I've been getting for that are in the $3k-$6k range. I don't mind paying that if I have to, but I also don't want to pay for something that ultimately won't work. I just feel like the Doberman breed is so specific and so I want someone who has extensive experience with these dogs to train her.

Any advice would be very appreciated! Thanks in advance!

 

[JanS]

Welcome from Minnesota!

the biggest being our issues are in my home and when I'm around

This is the vibe I started getting while I was reading through your post. It's you who needs some training and that's the case with most people since a trainer can take your dogs leash and it will be perfectly behaved in most cases. We have been lucky enough to have someone come to our home and do one on one sessions for $50/hour and it helps me a lot.

 

[lunathetuna97]

Welcome from Minnesota!


This is the vibe I started getting while I was reading through your post. It's you who needs some training and that's the case with most people since a trainer can take your dogs leash and it will be perfectly behaved in most cases. We have been lucky enough to have someone come to our home and do one on one sessions for $50/hour and it helps me a lot.

Yes I’m 100% learning that I also need training. I just don’t know how to act in those situations so I’m sure I’m doing something wrong. I can’t find anyone near me who does hourly, it’s a lot of flat fees (thousands) for a set amount of visits. Hourly would be perfect though, so maybe I’ll start trying to find that.

 

[Ddski5]

Hmmm…I am not a pro but all the instances you stated are rational to me.

1. Territorial of other animals
2. Big, tall stranger with a hoodie
3. Unfamiliar vet tech
4. Man suddenly appears while tying shoe
5. Older couple?? Idk, she did not like something…

She may be maturing into a protective Doberman. Nothing wrong with that, as you know that’s what they were created to be. There is also an issue with defensive fear reactions. They bark and become aggressive as a fear reaction.

My first was reactive to anything out of the norm, just all out. I constantly had my head on a swivel to settle the situation before it happen. (Kudos to you for recognizing yours). My second is not as bad and I was extremely surprised when (at 3yrs) she went after a black guy with thick dreads and hoodie- he was bringing me a sack of chicken feed. I was completely taken aback for she has never acted so aggressively to anyone anywhere anytime. He stepped back and actually complimented her saying “don’t worry sir, she is only doing her job.” To say the least, I was very happy he took it that way as some others would have been very oppositional. For my sweet Freyja to become reactive like that opened my eyes that she is not a sweet Lassie but will become defensive if she sees it necessary.

I've noticed that these incidents only occur when I'm with her. She's our only dog and we're a young couple, so she's our baby. But her dog walker and trainer, who has a doggie day school program for their group class graduates, says she's perfectly friendly and not at all defensive or territorial when they interact with her/walk her.

-Who is she the most bonded with? you?

-How confident are you with handling her? she feels some anxiety from you?

-How much obedience training do you do with her? Not sweet requests of performance but actual commands given and results expected? obedience training at 8wks any more?

If it only occurs with you and also in her territory (house and yard) then I think she is being protective of what she loves and cares for- her born and bred job.

Solutions:
1. I don’t think I will ever let my guard down with a Doberman. It is just who they are, their job. I say that but there are some like @Katyusharocket who have the sweetest Dobermans who do elderly therapy.
2. Build your confidence with daily obedience training. If she can feel anxiety or hesitation up through the leash, then she will want to protect and take charge. You need to provide the persona of leadership…she should look to you for direction and guidance. How? through daily obedience.
3. Build her confidence in you through consistent daily training- commands given with results expected. Can’t be a drill sergeant, must have fun too but she has to know you are in charge.

I don’t believe you have to get an expensive behavioral trainer…I would start simple- work in the house/yard on consistent basic commands then join an obedience class with other dogs. I know there is a basic, intermediate and then advanced groups with local AKC chapters. I did this with mine and it helped tremendously. Don’t get caught up with performing to perfection…it’s about your performance with her and her with you in public amongst other dogs and distractions.

 

[lunathetuna97]

Hmmm…I am not a pro but all the instances you stated are rational to me.

1. Territorial of other animals
2. Big, tall stranger with a hoodie
3. Unfamiliar vet tech
4. Man suddenly appears while tying shoe
5. Older couple?? Idk, she did not like something…

She may be maturing into a protective Doberman. Nothing wrong with that, as you know that’s what they were created to be. There is also an issue with defensive fear reactions. They bark and become aggressive as a fear reaction.

My first was reactive to anything out of the norm, just all out. I constantly had my head on a swivel to settle the situation before it happen. (Kudos to you for recognizing yours). My second is not as bad and I was extremely surprised when (at 3yrs) she went after a black guy with thick dreads and hoodie- he was bringing me a sack of chicken feed. I was completely taken aback for she has never acted so aggressively to anyone anywhere anytime. He stepped back and actually complimented her saying “don’t worry sir, she is only doing her job.” To say the least, I was very happy he took it that way as some others would have been very oppositional. For my sweet Freyja to become reactive like that opened my eyes that she is not a sweet Lassie but will become defensive if she sees it necessary.


-Who is she the most bonded with? you?

-How confident are you with handling her? she feels some anxiety from you?

-How much obedience training do you do with her? Not sweet requests of performance but actual commands given and results expected? obedience training at 8wks any more?

If it only occurs with you and also in her territory (house and yard) then I think she is being protective of what she loves and cares for- her born and bred job.

Solutions:
1. I don’t think I will ever let my guard down with a Doberman. It is just who they are, their job. I say that but there are some like @Katyusharocket who have the sweetest Dobermans who do elderly therapy.
2. Build your confidence with daily obedience training. If she can feel anxiety or hesitation up through the leash, then she will want to protect and take charge. You need to provide the persona of leadership…she should look to you for direction and guidance. How? through daily obedience.
3. Build her confidence in you through consistent daily training- commands given with results expected. Can’t be a drill sergeant, must have fun too but she has to know you are in charge.

I don’t believe you have to get an expensive behavioral trainer…I would start simple- work in the house/yard on consistent basic commands then join an obedience class with other dogs. I know there is a basic, intermediate and then advanced groups with local AKC chapters. I did this with mine and it helped tremendously. Don’t get caught up with performing to perfection…it’s about your performance with her and her with you in public amongst other dogs and distractions.

This was very helpful to read!

Yes, she is most closely bonded with me. I spend most of my spare time with her and she and I are very in tune. She’s amazing at reading emotions and is the sweetest, cuddliest girl 98% of the time. I’m very confident with her because I feel like I can read all of her body language cues and get ahead of things before they escalate. However, there’s been a few times where my attention was elsewhere for a moment and the situation was the perfect set up for her to have a window to react without having me standing by ready to reel her in.

I definitely agree that these things happen out of a behavioral desire to protect me and her home, so I don’t want to necessarily punish her for that. I do training with her but it’s not really obedience, it’s just treat training in the house with things like “place”, “stay”, “down” etc. We do work on her leash obedience a few days a week on walks, but only when there’s nothing around to scare her or get her animated. I think my biggest struggle is getting her to pay attention to me when there’s a trigger in our environment. For instance, there’s a female doodle that lives next door to us that she cannot stand. I’m not surprised as they’re two female dogs around the same age with territories that are close to one another. But when that dog is walking in the neighborhood or we have to walk past them on our own walks, she stares her down and her hair stands up and then both dogs lunge at each other. I know the staring is a direct challenge, but I’m not sure how else to handle it. I’ve tried having her sit and look at me but inevitably she gets animated at the dog. She’s very food driven but even that won’t necessarily get her attention in these scenarios.

My other big question mark is when she freaks out on someone she initiated an interaction with. The vet tech I mentioned previously was someone she went up to and nudged and was otherwise enjoying interacting with and then she suddenly took a step back, looked at her very intently, and then launched into the defensive barking. I think that’s my biggest problem now because it makes me so nervous for ANY interaction; I feel like even if she seems totally at ease and ready to interact, she can change her mind in the blink of an eye.

 

[JanS]

I think that’s my biggest problem now because it makes me so nervous for ANY interaction;

It definitely does make a huge difference how you react when something happens. If you remain calm and collected, they will usually follow suit.

BTW, we'd love to see some photos of her.

 

[lunathetuna97]

I have 1000s so please enjoy!

 

[JanS]

What a pretty girl!

 

[Ravenbird]

You have some great suggestions already, what @Ddski5 detailed especially.

Since you enjoy doing things with her I would first look into some AKC obedience classes, group classes with other dogs rather than hiring a behaviorist trainer. These classes are usually safe places with dogs on leash and working together. This does several things for you: Luna will learn to always pay attention to you while other dogs and people are doing things around her. You will learn (if you have a good instructor) to push Luna for more precise actions, perfecting her sits, downs and stays (and more), and this in turn tunes her into you waiting for the next move you ask for instead of making decisions independently. It also builds the bonds you have with her to another level. Tons of conversation & videos on the Obedience and Performance threads! You don't have to want to compete, just do these things for fun and self challenges.

From your original post I am suspecting Luna is reacting off other peoples looks/behavior/surprise, and most likely looking at your dog and locking eyes with her. Even for a second or two this will trigger my dog into explosive barking. I'm 5 years into it now and have a very good handle on it, but still to this day if someone looks at Asha, even with a kind admiring look, she can take it as a threat. So the vet tech who she's been totally cool with, is standing back thinking what a beautiful Dobe that is and Luna glances at her and vet tech looks into her eyes, however innocently, this could trigger her. Mine started this at 3 or 4 months old, but your girl may have been a much more stable puppy and as she matured became more confident in herself and independent to voice her opinion. "Accidents" like when you were tying your shoe may continue because honestly we can't control every.single.thing. But if you tell your house guests, the vet staff etc. to avoid looking into her eyes or face it may help. As my pup grew up anytime someone came over or if we were in a group of people somewhere else I would say "Ignore my dog. No touch, no talk, no eye contact." They basically had to pretend there was no dog at my side, don't talk to me while looking at my dog! After a few minutes my dog would be fine and could interact like a "normal" dog.

The barking outside on her long line: There is a thing with dogs called "barrier frustration". Tying back so they can't reach what they want creates a bigger desire to get their target. It's exactly how bite-sports are trained to want to get the sleeve on the helper. Tie or hold them back and it builds drive. It's also the same drive that creates fence fighting between neighbor dogs, but with tie backs on the collar or harness pulling back on their physical body intensifies this. Depending on how often this goes on and how bad it is and how irritating it is to your neighbors and their dogs would make a difference in what I'd suggest doing to stop it.

Luna is a gorgeous dog. I hope you stay around and give us updates on what you do with her and how she improves with your efforts!

 

[MyBuddy]

I absolutely love every bit of advice you've been given! Sound Advice!

I agree that she seems to be protective of you. And that's great. To a point. But she also has to learn that when you say, "I've got this!" That she knows to back off.

Being the pack leader like Cesar Millan used to say, takes some practice. It's not about yelling or being mean. It's showing Authority. Like a parent to a child. I remember watching that show and watching the people try and imitate Caesar and it just didn't come off the same. He would have to teach them about their body language, their attitude. Even watching Caesar deal with a difficult dog, I would see him physically do a change. Take a deep breath, stand straight and tall and portray this, "I am King" attitude. I remember him saying you almost have to think of yourself as the Prom Queen. LOL I used to laugh thinking, yeah I guess you almost have to have an arrogant attitude, like you're all that ! That take charge attitude makes you the Leader to your dog.

Your body language is so important. I know there's been times that I'd be sitting and giving Annie a command that she might blow off. A simple thing like to stop barking (quiet!) or "drop it." And if she blows me off.... I stand up! All I have to do is give her 'that look' of authority, like 'I mean it.'

So even though your head has to be on swivel watching for an event that would set your dog off, your body language, your attitude, will help stop her in her tracks. " I've got this Luna. Back off."

 

[Two Dobes]

She is a beautiful girl, and great advice from everyone here. In my early years of being a doberman owner, we had boys. I did experience that with a few boys that we owned. And it was indeed their feeling that I did not have the situation under control, so felt they had to take charge. We had a male that did not like one friend who would visit, because he wasn't over often enough, and when he was, he would talk with his hands and be very dramatic. We had to put the boy behind a gate when he was over....otherwise our boy would 'rush' him, and freak me out! He was also the type of dobe that did NOT like eye contact from those he did not know like @Ravenbird mentioned.
It would be helpful if you were able to take group classes...it will help build your confidence. And if you are not able; then just working with her daily without distractions, getting her to follow commands. Then transfer that to outside on a walk, where you randomly ask her to down, or sit stay - hang onto leash and walk in front of her as far as you can, then return. Just getting her to rely on you, and understand you are in charge.
Sounds like you have been doing all the right things! You just need to continue and be consistent. She is 3 years old now, and that is pretty much when they reach 'full' maturity, so she is just being a doberman. It takes some work having your head on a swivel as @MyBuddy mentioned, but will be so worth it to get Luna to understand. And if you are concerned when certain people are over, a better option is to put up a gate, and keep her in a room she can see you all; but cannot visit. Dobermans do not like to be shut away...adds to their anxiety.
Please let us know how things go with her as you progress!

 

[lunathetuna97]

Hi everyone! I wanted to provide an update on my girl since I got so many helpful comments here:

1. I reached out to the people we used for her group obedience training and they were great! They said I could come to as many weekend group classes as I needed to keep her training sharp, so we've been going every other weekend as a refresher. I was a bit worried originally that when we went she would be a total basket-case and embarrass me, but she shocked me and was a model trainee. I found it interesting because there were so many dogs, some behaved and some clearly working on behaving, and she wasn't reactive towards any of them. I'd say there were around 20 of us, each with our own large (usually working breed) dogs. She's also going to "day school" once per week with her trainers to provide some controlled socialization with people we know and trust + other well-trained dogs without me having to be present. They say she's an angel and has never exhibited any issues.

2. I invested in a great lightweight tactical vest that has large yellow letters that say "Please Ask to Pet" and "In training" to deter random interactions in public. I've noticed that people are way more cautious this way and it helps keep my anxiety levels down in busy settings. It's helped me to control interactions we have outside of the house and we have not (knock on wood!) had an issue since doing so!

3. I've begun using the "please ignore my dog" advice provided in this forum when new people are over or meeting her, and it's worked wonderfully! If it's someone she knows and loves it usually doesn't last long because she's so desperate for love and affection, but with strangers or people she does not know, it's worked really well. She almost always ends up warming up to them as long as the attention isn't explicitly on her (trying to hard to interact with her when she's in a high-energy state) and she can tell from my body language that the person is not a "bad guy". I've also kept all new interactions to a minimum and only permitted them when she's had plenty of exercise and the environment isn't too over-stimulating.

This isn't to say everything has been rosy; we are definitely still working on being reactive in the yard and sometimes in enclosed public spaces, but I definitely feel like I have more control over the situation and can relax a bit. I know she can sense my agitation, so I am sure that has helped a lot. I do hope we're able to work on an "Thanks for letting me know, I've got this" type of command for when she is reacting to a stimulus, but that part has been a bit trickier and still a work in progress for now!

I'm attaching some photos of her being a distinguished lady because why not!

 

[JanS]

I'm glad things are coming around!

 

[MyBuddy]

Thanks for the update on your girl!! It's always so nice to hear back from someone that posted about a problem. It sounds like you have a firm handle on things now and seeing a lot of improvements! That's awesome!

 

[Ravenbird]

So great that you are having success! And for photos - what a wonderful girl!

 

[lunathetuna97]

So great that you are having success! And for photos - what a wonderful girl!

Yes, she's been her usual sweet self and I can tell she just wants to please me and keep me safe Another reason why they're the best breed but I may be biased.

 

[Two Dobes]

Thanks for the update, just keep doing what you are doing....you will succeed!

 

[Ddski5]

Wow….great job!!

I learned a while back- the more you put in the more you will get of them. Not that you are not but just saying…love that you are hard nosed persistent and figuring it out.

Don’t ever be hesitant or embarrassed about your Doberman. I can promise you the other folks around you, that have an inkling of dog training, understand that trials and errors is what make great training opportunities and learning.