Public Tantrums

[Kbailey34]

Hey guys,

Rajah is well into his teens at 10 months old and we are STRUGGLING with some unwanted behavior. It's strange because it is not a behavior I was prepared for ... I know dobes are vocal but Rajah is VOCAL when he is 1. Overstimulated 2. Frustrated. He only really acts out in public and in the car. He goes from 0-100 really suddenly.

I never know when it's coming, except he whines constantly in the car from frustration and not being able to interact with things we're driving by. Loud, terrible whines. He is definitely calmer after exercising, but that may not stop the whining and he can't always be exercised well before we go somewhere, especially if the plan is to go somewhere to get him exercised...

In public he's always so good with listening to me. His leash manners are decent, he walks by and often ignores other dogs without any problems, he's accepts pets from strangers and he does what I ask, but all of the sudden he'll start to whine/bark/yap Loudly. Like people stop and ask me if something is wrong. If I can find an actual source of something causing him to be overstimulated or frustrated, I try to remove him from it. For example, he usually ignores other dogs, but if we're not walking past them and they're just hanging out in the same general vicinity for awhile, he might start to get frustrated and vocalize, in which case I remove him from the situation if I can. Even then though, he gets going, it doesn't mean removing him will mean he'll automatically stop. He just continues to work himself up sometimes. IDK, maybe it's hormones ...

If I try to distract him by asking him to do tricks, he will do as I ask, while still vocalizing. He'll sit and whine, lay and whine, heel and whine. The only commands he won't do are "quiet" and won't "look (at me)" consistently, even if if does look, he'll still do do while whining. The only way I can guarantee he stops is by bringing out his ball, but his behavior hasn't gotten better so I feel like distracting him with the ball is a crutch.

I'm trying to strengthen his look and quiet commands. I've gotten an e collar, have been studying up on it and have begun conditioning him to get used to the feeling and understanding what it means, but I would love to hear if anyone else has experienced this and if it went away on its own or if they think I'm missing something, any general advice would be great.

Attached is a pic of my beautiful, but frustrating boy

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I'd be interested in knowing what type of lines he's from. Some of that behavior sounds like he could be a relative of Oji.

Oji does a higher pitched (as opposed to his deep defensive bark) barking that sounds like he is being injured. A good example of this is when I have him on a heel and he is at full energy and it's cold outside (the cold gives him extra energy and excitement) and maybe my daughter(s) is walking in front of him. He will vocalize nice and loud out of stress and frustration.

Anytime that he is excited about something, like (sigh) another animal, and I have or put him on a heel, he goes into this pathetic loud barking. If I tell him to stop barking (which he is trained to do) he sort of takes it as a release from the prior command (heel). Ugghhh.

He is going on 7 years old and it has not changed.

 

[Kbailey34]

Yeeeessss his whine sounds like he's being beaten. He also has a very deep defensive bark.

I dont know too much about Dobie lines. I just know he has pretty typical to slightly long lived ancestors. His mom is American and his dad is European. I believe western European. He's quite famous in the ipo world, since there aren't many accomplished dobies. His name is Marco vom Landgraf.

Oh no! Still going at 7? I hope we can work through this. I want to be able to take him everywhere with me and this behavior is very discouraging

 

[Doberman Gang]

Hey guys,

Rajah is well into his teens at 10 months old and we are STRUGGLING with some unwanted behavior. It's strange because it is not a behavior I was prepared for ... I know dobes are vocal but Rajah is VOCAL when he is 1. Overstimulated 2. Frustrated. He only really acts out in public and in the car. He goes from 0-100 really suddenly.

I never know when it's coming, except he whines constantly in the car from frustration and not being able to interact with things we're driving by. Loud, terrible whines. He is definitely calmer after exercising, but that may not stop the whining and he can't always be exercised well before we go somewhere, especially if the plan is to go somewhere to get him exercised...

In public he's always so good with listening to me. His leash manners are decent, he walks by and often ignores other dogs without any problems, he's accepts pets from strangers and he does what I ask, but all of the sudden he'll start to whine/bark/yap Loudly. Like people stop and ask me if something is wrong. If I can find an actual source of something causing him to be overstimulated or frustrated, I try to remove him from it. For example, he usually ignores other dogs, but if we're not walking past them and they're just hanging out in the same general vicinity for awhile, he might start to get frustrated and vocalize, in which case I remove him from the situation if I can. Even then though, he gets going, it doesn't mean removing him will mean he'll automatically stop. He just continues to work himself up sometimes. IDK, maybe it's hormones ...

If I try to distract him by asking him to do tricks, he will do as I ask, while still vocalizing. He'll sit and whine, lay and whine, heel and whine. The only commands he won't do are "quiet" and won't "look (at me)" consistently, even if if does look, he'll still do do while whining. The only way I can guarantee he stops is by bringing out his ball, but his behavior hasn't gotten better so I feel like distracting him with the ball is a crutch.

I'm trying to strengthen his look and quiet commands. I've gotten an e collar, have been studying up on it and have begun conditioning him to get used to the feeling and understanding what it means, but I would love to hear if anyone else has experienced this and if it went away on its own or if they think I'm missing something, any general advice would be great.

Attached is a pic of my beautiful, but frustrating boy

Are you crating him on the car? If not, this will sometimes help him with anxiety or being anxious.
No meeting other people or dogs, he does not need this interaction only to be with you with others and there dogs present. When you try to distract him by doing commands and he still whines, are you still rewarding him? If so, you are reinforcing the whining.
Sounds like his focus and drive are better with the ball. I would use this to reward exercises when he is focused and not whining.

 

[Kbailey34]

My car is too small for a crate, unfortunately, and no i dont reward while he is whining.

The ball is very helpful for redirection, but it sucks if I forget it or it's not always practical to have. I don't want to lean on it too much or all the time.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Yeeeessss his whine sounds like he's being beaten. He also has a very deep defensive bark.

I dont know too much about Dobie lines. I just know he has pretty typical to slightly long lived ancestors. His mom is American and his dad is European. I believe western European. He's quite famous in the ipo world, since there aren't many accomplished dobies. His name is Marco vom Landgraf.

Oh no! Still going at 7? I hope we can work through this. I want to be able to take him everywhere with me and this behavior is very discouraging

Okay, your Rajah's sire is western European and IPO accomplished. Landgraf, yep.

Oji's Dam is a German import IPO III. His sire is Euro, and I believe was a BH at the time of breeding. I'd have to look into his pedigree again.

I see similar structure.

Take heart. You will likely be able to bring this under control better than I have. Yes, the e-collar is an absolute MUST in our lives. Food, water and e-collar. Not necessarily in that order – ha. You sound like you are introducing Rajah to the collar well. Must do the training first before bringing in e-collar to reenforce/enforce.

Oji does NOT ignore other dogs like Rajah does. He acts like Cujo even from like 1/2 a block away. I've worked hard to overcome this. If I don't take charge of the situation, he goes nuts. Embarrassing.

How does Rajah act if you tie him out a few feet away from you? Say, at a park or something? Maybe you haven't needed to do this. Oji explodes into aggressive barking.

This is not the higher pitched "I'm being injured" bark. It's like he wants to attack. He will, in fact, take a few snaps at me as I walk away. Real nice at a park with families. He has separation anxiety, did I mention?

So, I bet your future is brighter.

 

[Ravenbird]

Do you tell him "no" when he starts vocalizing? He has to know that you don't approve of this behavior, especially before starting the e-collar. You don't say what you've been doing for obedience, but I would say do more, plus more often & switch things up constantly. Sit, down, stay, come, 1/4 turns at sit = 4 sits on a 360 turn around. That sire is a high drive working dog and these dogs want & need LOTS of challenges! If you are wanting to take an easy relaxed sniff walk & he starts the angst whining/barking, I'd go right into work mode with some obedience routine that's never the same twice, even if it's just 5 minutes, lots of tiny busy busy busy drills. Reward at the end with a ball or tug, but only if he works with you and stops vocalizing. Don't worry about leaning on the ball or tug for reward, if that's what gets him to behave it's a good trade. He's young & you can wean him off the ball, but right now I'd want to nip this behavior as quickly as possible. Mental challenges exhaust my dog more than physical ones, so new things are always down the pike. Nose work is my go-to for getting her to quiet down (after, not during - it hypes her up while searching). If you can do some simple hides in the house before you go out, that may help, but I've never used it that way, I just know when we're done she's ready to be quiet for a while. Also we've set hides in public parks and when she has on her nose work harness she knows what we're doing and she ignores EVERYthing except searching. So that might be an idea too, going public places to work on lessons, then in the car and back home. The e-collar will help, esp in the car if he starts up, it's like they know we're helpless while driving. Ha. That little tap is like magic.

Keep us posted how it goes and let us know what works for you.

 

[Kbailey34]

Okay, your Rajah's sire is western European and IPO accomplished. Landgraf, yep.

Oji's Dam is a German import IPO III. His sire is Euro, and I believe was a BH at the time of breeding. I'd have to look into his pedigree again.

I see similar structure.

Take heart. You will likely be able to bring this under control better than I have. Yes, the e-collar is an absolute MUST in our lives. Food, water and e-collar. Not necessarily in that order – ha. You sound like you are introducing Rajah to the collar well. Must do the training first before bringing in e-collar to reenforce/enforce.

Oji does NOT ignore other dogs like Rajah does. He acts like Cujo even from like 1/2 a block away. I've worked hard to overcome this. If I don't take charge of the situation, he goes nuts. Embarrassing.

How does Rajah act if you tie him out a few feet away from you? Say, at a park or something? Maybe you haven't needed to do this. Oji explodes into aggressive barking.
View attachment 116881
This is not the higher pitched "I'm being injured" bark. It's like he wants to attack. He will, in fact, take a few snaps at me as I walk away. Real nice at a park with families. He has separation anxiety, did I mention?

So, I bet your future is brighter.

Yeah he's from oldfort dobermans and the breeder, usually only keeps females. She likes to take her American or Am/Euro females, who she trains in agility and breed them to working european males. Most of her pups go to pet homes. I believe her goal is to breed confident pups with drive, but not with an ipo 3 level of drive. Sounds like Oji has a lot of that.

I've never had to tie him and walk away. but I don't believe he would get so worked up that he would snap at me. He seems to be fine when I leave him, though he may whine or cry for a bit, especially if he can see me but can't get to me.

Yeah I want to make sure I do the ecollar training right, so I'm reading and watching videos and we're taking our time.

 

[Kbailey34]

Do you tell him "no" when he starts vocalizing? He has to know that you don't approve of this behavior, especially before starting the e-collar. You don't say what you've been doing for obedience, but I would say do more, plus more often & switch things up constantly. Sit, down, stay, come, 1/4 turns at sit = 4 sits on a 360 turn around. That sire is a high drive working dog and these dogs want & need LOTS of challenges! If you are wanting to take an easy relaxed sniff walk & he starts the angst whining/barking, I'd go right into work mode with some obedience routine that's never the same twice, even if it's just 5 minutes, lots of tiny busy busy busy drills. Reward at the end with a ball or tug, but only if he works with you and stops vocalizing. Don't worry about leaning on the ball or tug for reward, if that's what gets him to behave it's a good trade. He's young & you can wean him off the ball, but right now I'd want to nip this behavior as quickly as possible. Mental challenges exhaust my dog more than physical ones, so new things are always down the pike. Nose work is my go-to for getting her to quiet down (after, not during - it hypes her up while searching). If you can do some simple hides in the house before you go out, that may help, but I've never used it that way, I just know when we're done she's ready to be quiet for a while. Also we've set hides in public parks and when she has on her nose work harness she knows what we're doing and she ignores EVERYthing except searching. So that might be an idea too, going public places to work on lessons, then in the car and back home. The e-collar will help, esp in the car if he starts up, it's like they know we're helpless while driving. Ha. That little tap is like magic.

Keep us posted how it goes and let us know what works for you.

Well when he vocalizes around the house, he responds to "quiet", if he is being stubborn, I do tell him no and usually close the door, where he is barking at whatever outside has caught his attention.
As far as obedience, he know the basics, sit, down, stand, heel (he'll post up at my side but tends to move away, still working on that), he knows "around" which is to move from sitting on my left in a heel to walking around me and back to where he started. He knows look (at me) but again we're not great at that with distractions. And he knows place and down. We work on these things several times a day while at home and I ask him to do these when we're out too. I'm trying to get out more, so that we build up distractions. Though I guess he's not as focused on me as I would like, since he rarely stops whining to do what I ask.
I'm probably not giving him enough commands to force him to focus on me.

Nose work sound fun. How did you get started?

Thanks, I will definitely keep you posted

 

[Rits]

@Kbailey34 it sounds like your boy would really benefit from a job! While Ripley isn't on edge to the extent your boy is, at 9 months old she is very much distracted and young anywhere outside our home. We have been working on that non stop, doing like @Ravenbird is doing and looking for that next thing to work on to keep her mind busy. Through the process this keeps her engaged with me and builds that bond. She is just coming around to being able to focus at our training facility with other dogs working. The duration isn't long though but we will build on that.

Just start with tiny amounts of focus, reward, and end the session with tug before you ask again. You can buy balls on tugs since he likes balls so much. I'd make sure he has a solid understanding of focus at home first before asking for eyes up in distracting areas. If you can only get him to look at you for a split second, thats ok. Reward instantly. You can slowly build on it.

Have you thought about virtual rally? It's a great way to work on those obedience skills and keep things fresh and interesting since there are different courses! I think keeping him guessing and working his mind on new things will help with his focus and vocalness. Sounds like frustration to work! Ripley will get real vocal when we stand around at the start of class and the energy is high. Like "Let's GO!!" Soon as we start working she quiets down.

Virtual Rally

Anyone plan to do virtual rally or have done virtual rally? Its been extended until Dec 31 2021. You can do all the way up to Rally Excellent at home/your local rent a ring/training center and submit your entries in virtually to earn a title! I personally think its a great idea, especially for...

doberman-chat.com

 

[Kbailey34]

@Kbailey34 it sounds like your boy would really benefit from a job! While Ripley isn't on edge to the extent your boy is, at 9 months old she is very much distracted and young anywhere outside our home. We have been working on that non stop, doing like @Ravenbird is doing and looking for that next thing to work on to keep her mind busy. Through the process this keeps her engaged with me and builds that bond. She is just coming around to being able to focus at our training facility with other dogs working. The duration isn't long though but we will build on that.

Just start with tiny amounts of focus, reward, and end the session with tug before you ask again. You can buy balls on tugs since he likes balls so much. I'd make sure he has a solid understanding of focus at home first before asking for eyes up in distracting areas. If you can only get him to look at you for a split second, thats ok. Reward instantly. You can slowly build on it.

Have you thought about virtual rally? It's a great way to work on those obedience skills and keep things fresh and interesting since there are different courses! I think keeping him guessing and working his mind on new things will help with his focus and vocalness. Sounds like frustration to work! Ripley will get real vocal when we stand around at the start of class and the energy is high. Like "Let's GO!!" Soon as we start working she quiets down.

Virtual Rally

Anyone plan to do virtual rally or have done virtual rally? Its been extended until Dec 31 2021. You can do all the way up to Rally Excellent at home/your local rent a ring/training center and submit your entries in virtually to earn a title! I personally think its a great idea, especially for...

doberman-chat.com

Thanks for the advice! Giving him tasks as you and @Ravenbird suggested sounds like a good start. I'll put not work into that.

Virtual rally is news to us but you've definitely got my attention. I'll do some research.

 

[Ravenbird]

Well when he vocalizes around the house, he responds to "quiet", if he is being stubborn, I do tell him no and usually close the door, where he is barking at whatever outside has caught his attention.
As far as obedience, he know the basics, sit, down, stand, heel (he'll post up at my side but tends to move away, still working on that), he knows "around" which is to move from sitting on my left in a heel to walking around me and back to where he started. He knows look (at me) but again we're not great at that with distractions. And he knows place and down. We work on these things several times a day while at home and I ask him to do these when we're out too. I'm trying to get out more, so that we build up distractions. Though I guess he's not as focused on me as I would like, since he rarely stops whining to do what I ask.
I'm probably not giving him enough commands to force him to focus on me.

Nose work sound fun. How did you get started?

Sounds like you've been doing plenty of basics. I'm not sure from your post, but sounds like when you go out in public it's mostly to try to relax and enjoy. Rajha may be vocalizing in anticipation of doing something? I went through a period like this too and basically just kept her busy. We had a group lesson with a few other people/dogs and when we were having discussions, Asha would start acting out like a 6 year old child, moaning, whining, rolling on the ground, I was constantly correcting with the leash & verbally. It was AKC class and so I had a flat collar or basic slip chain on and it was totally useless - Asha paid no attention to me, my voice or my leash corrections. When we were in motion working on exercises she was fine. We made some mistakes and one of the biggest I feel was me "letting" her get away with this behavior. Wasn't that I wasn't trying to correct, it was that it wasn't working. I started taking her to as many places as I could with her prong and e-collar on and after just a very few corrections that let her know in no uncertain terms what was not allowed, everything got better. Between getting a bit older and some consistent clear communication on what is OK and what's not, you'll be fine.

Nose work IS fun! Very basics: At home just put Rajah in his crate or another room - I put on a lightweight nylon harness for NW indication - place a high value treat in an easy to access place, like at the foot of a chair or edge of a wall. Go get Rajah on a leash and stop at the doorway to the room with the hide (think of it as a Starting Line) and use a command, such as "go find". Leave the leash loose at all times, let him go round and round looking - he will def start looking if it's something like a piece of hotdog. When he finds it have a party and feed him more treats at the site of the hide. Work up to 3 or 4 or 5 hides, then use different rooms, make them harder to find or to get to, higher, lower, then try outside etc etc. My housemates dog has NACSW NW1 and NW2 titles, so I was tagging along the last few years watching her. It didn't take long before I realized how this mental game made the rest of our day better. I would put her away to do hides, then out to find, then away for hiding and out to find for 4 to 6 runs maybe 2 or 3 x a week. Yes, she was pretty whiny and vocal when put away while I was hiding, but when the harness came off & I gave my vocal cue for "no more/all done" she knew it was over.

Your breeder has chosen some nice dogs for sires. Case is my dogs grandsire. I think I inquired there when I was looking for a pup, but either they didn't have any in the works or it was about the time I got approved for the one I ended up with.

Do you have a plan for Rajah doing sports?

 

[Kbailey34]

Sounds like you've been doing plenty of basics. I'm not sure from your post, but sounds like when you go out in public it's mostly to try to relax and enjoy. Rajha may be vocalizing in anticipation of doing something? I went through a period like this too and basically just kept her busy. We had a group lesson with a few other people/dogs and when we were having discussions, Asha would start acting out like a 6 year old child, moaning, whining, rolling on the ground, I was constantly correcting with the leash & verbally. It was AKC class and so I had a flat collar or basic slip chain on and it was totally useless - Asha paid no attention to me, my voice or my leash corrections. When we were in motion working on exercises she was fine. We made some mistakes and one of the biggest I feel was me "letting" her get away with this behavior. Wasn't that I wasn't trying to correct, it was that it wasn't working. I started taking her to as many places as I could with her prong and e-collar on and after just a very few corrections that let her know in no uncertain terms what was not allowed, everything got better. Between getting a bit older and some consistent clear communication on what is OK and what's not, you'll be fine.

Nose work IS fun! Very basics: At home just put Rajah in his crate or another room - I put on a lightweight nylon harness for NW indication - place a high value treat in an easy to access place, like at the foot of a chair or edge of a wall. Go get Rajah on a leash and stop at the doorway to the room with the hide (think of it as a Starting Line) and use a command, such as "go find". Leave the leash loose at all times, let him go round and round looking - he will def start looking if it's something like a piece of hotdog. When he finds it have a party and feed him more treats at the site of the hide. Work up to 3 or 4 or 5 hides, then use different rooms, make them harder to find or to get to, higher, lower, then try outside etc etc. My housemates dog has NACSW NW1 and NW2 titles, so I was tagging along the last few years watching her. It didn't take long before I realized how this mental game made the rest of our day better. I would put her away to do hides, then out to find, then away for hiding and out to find for 4 to 6 runs maybe 2 or 3 x a week. Yes, she was pretty whiny and vocal when put away while I was hiding, but when the harness came off & I gave my vocal cue for "no more/all done" she knew it was over.

Your breeder has chosen some nice dogs for sires. Case is my dogs grandsire. I think I inquired there when I was looking for a pup, but either they didn't have any in the works or it was about the time I got approved for the one I ended up with.

Do you have a plan for Rajah doing sports?

Right, usually I take Rajah with me to places he is allowed to come to, so before winter, we went to my nephews football games. We also drive to my parents house or home improvement stores and pet stores. He always did well, just taking stuff in but one day, a flipped switched and he turned into a whiny thing. Now that the whether is changing and he's older, I want to continue to take him out to places mentioned above, but also around my downtown area and to places that are for him to get some exercise. I refrained from taking him hiking last summer, I didn't want to put too much strain on his joints. I also want to get him involved in sports, just for fun.

I planned to do some research this spring to see what kind of sports sound like they would be a good fit for us and how to get started.

I'm hoping corrections with the e collar will be more effective than the prong. He does well with leash corrections on the prong, but trying to correct his vocalizing by using the prong, results in even worse sounds, his tone gets higher and more desperate. The few times I've tried to do it in public haven't been great, because the sound he makes it seem like I'm torturing him and the only time I need to correct him like that is in public. Lol he well and truly causes a scene.

 

[Kbailey34]

Thanks for the nose work instructions. We'll definitely get started on that soon. I think he'll love it

 

[Ravenbird]

Yikes. Does sound like maybe the Doberteens are coming into play.

 

[Ravenbird]

Thanks for the nose work instructions. We'll definitely get started on that soon. I think he'll love it

I think he will too. I'll try to post a few videos in a new thread showing when we first got started at home.

 

[Kaiser2016]

He is definitely calmer after exercising, but that may not stop the whining and he can't always be exercised well before we go somewhere, especially if the plan is to go somewhere to get him exercised

It's a vicious circle isn't it The teen stage is horrible anyway, add in all that psycho puppy energy, and then all that vocalizing? I complain about the noise a lot, but fortunately, he does not whine outside the house. He may whine to be released from the car when we aren't fast enough, but once he's out, he's busy being alert and ready to take in the sights and smells of his environment. I remember the pre-pandemic days when I used to take him out to places like Pet Smart and I would get so many comments about how calm he was - they are very good actors outside the house. You will get there, just follow all the advice and stick with it!

beautiful, but frustrating

Just the look in his eyes, I can tell he is ready for MORE ADVENTURE NOWWWWWW! I always say, if this devil wasn't so handsome, I'm not sure I could tolerate so much

 

[Kbailey34]

I think he will too. I'll try to post a few videos in a new thread showing when we first got started at home.

That would be great

 

[Kbailey34]

It's a vicious circle isn't it The teen stage is horrible anyway, add in all that psycho puppy energy, and then all that vocalizing? I complain about the noise a lot, but fortunately, he does not whine outside the house. He may whine to be released from the car when we aren't fast enough, but once he's out, he's busy being alert and ready to take in the sights and smells of his environment. I remember the pre-pandemic days when I used to take him out to places like Pet Smart and I would get so many comments about how calm he was - they are very good actors outside the house. You will get there, just follow all the advice and stick with it!

Just the look in his eyes, I can tell he is ready for MORE ADVENTURE NOWWWWWW! I always say, if this devil wasn't so handsome, I'm not sure I could tolerate so much

He's the complete opposite. He's so good in the house. The crazy starts once we leave.

Exactly, that face and his cuddles save him.

 

[Ravenbird]

That would be great

Just tagged you on a thread I started a year ago, added a few more videos.

Nose Work at Home

This is only about the 5th or 6th time we've played this game and now Asha is in total "work" mode. There are 4 little piles of kibble "hidden" but accessible. She has learned to ignore the scent of where it has been and only go to the source of odor where the little pile is. Video taken...

doberman-chat.com