Post-neuter poundage

[DoberMum]

Hi All -

This is my first post beside my intro and it seems I wrote a book.

Since we neutered our boy last November at 18 months, he packed on about 7 lbs, tipping the scale at 95lbs. He's over-sized to begin with, tall, big boned, just a big dude. We cut his food back and increased his activity level, adding walks to his dog park runs. He has always been a "stomach with legs" and cutting his kibble back to three cups a day from four cups, was making him cruise the kitchen like a shark, and he began eating poop. We pick up every morning and started picking up in the evenings too, but he'd still get a hold of poop, so we put him on Wellness Healthy Weight, which has lots of fiber, three cups a day, split into am/pm feedings.

He's lost about 2 lbs in the last month or so, but still has a way to go to the 87/89 lbs he should be. Even on the Wellness, he was still acting hungry and chewed up his leather collar into small bits and ate it. Not the buckle or the tags though, and he puked up the collar later the next day (he's famous at our vet's for eating and sometimes puking up random things, like chunks of asphalt and socks) but still, something had to be done.

Given that he loves fruit and veggies, we have begun adding that to his food and not just using it as a treat. He is getting at each feeding 6 baby carrots, half an apple and half a piece of broccoli, stem and top, chopped up in big chunks and put in with his kibble. It's about three cups of veggies and fruit, now one cup of kibble per feeding, and his fish/flax etc. oil and joint-health supplement in the morning, which is a total of about 920 calories a day, give or take the odd piece of banana, watermelon or licking my finished yogurt container and leftover soy milk from my cereal. No seed or stems from that apple, though.

Is this okay? Too much? Not enough kibble? He's not acting hungry anymore between meals (ya think?), he seems to enjoy chewing the big chunks (good "mouth feel" I suppose), and eats his veggies and fruit first. When I go to the fridge, get his stuff and a cutting board, he starts to drool, LOL. It takes him three times longer to eat his food now that he has to take the time to chew! BTW, other than that first night, we don't have bad broccoli farts, in fact, we have very little gas and not he's not anywhere near as stinky as he has been on just the kibble. And his poop looks good - no runs, no constipation, doesn't knock us out with the smell. We've been doing this for about four days.

I realize I might be over-thinking this but like a lot of us, he needs to lose weight and not feel like he's starving. Based on what I have seen over the last few days, this is agreeing with him. Even now, after dinner and a trot around the yard, he's sacked out on the couch and not bugging me for more food like he used to.

Thanks!

DoberMum

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Here's the kibble's breakdown:

Guaranteed Analysis
Crude Protein Not Less Than 17.0%
Crude Fat Not Less Than 6.0%
Crude Fat Not More Than 10.0%
Crude Fiber Not More Than 8.0%
Moisture Not More Than 11.0%
Calcium Not Less Than 1.00%
Phosphorus Not Less Than 0.85%
Vitamin E Not Less Than 400 IU/kg
Omega 6 Fatty Acids* Not Less Than 2.30%
Omega 3 Fatty Acids* Not Less Than 0.40%
Glucosamine Hydrochloride* Not Less Than 400 mg/kg
Chondroitin Sulfate* Not Less Than 300 mg/kg
Beta-Carotene* Not Less Than 5 mg/kg
Lycopene* Not Less Than 0.25 mg/kg
Taurine* Not Less Than 0.09%
Total Micro-organisms* Not Less Than 20,000,000 CFU/lb

Deboned Chicken, Ground Barley, Rice Bran, Chicken Meal, Ground Brown Rice, Tomato Pomace, Natural Chicken Flavor, Rye Flour, Oatmeal, Oat Fiber, Deboned Whitefish, Tomatoes, Canola Oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a natural source of Vitamin E), Ground Millet, Carrots, Spinach, Sweet Potatoes, Apples, Blueberries, Calcium Carbonate, Dicalcium Phosphate, Ground Flaxseed, Minerals [Zinc Sulfate, Zinc Proteinate, Iron Proteinate, Ferrous Sulfate, Copper Proteinate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Proteinate, Manganese Sulfate, Sodium Selenite], Vitamins [Beta-Carotene, Vitamin E Supplement, Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Vitamin A Supplement, Niacin, Calcium Pantothenate, Riboflavin, Vitamin D-3 Supplement, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Thiamine Mononitrate, Folic Acid, Biotin, Vitamin B-12 Supplement], Choline Chloride, Taurine, Mixed Tocopherols (a natural preservative), Glucosamine Hydrochloride, Chondroitin Sulfate, Chicory Root Extract, Garlic, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Green Tea Extract, Dried Lactobacillus plantarum, Enterococcus faecium, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation products.

 

[apbtmom76]

HI Zanna, I wouldn't feed him broccoli, lol. But I would suggest feeding him twice daily, cut the amount of kibble in half and give him a half a cup of fresh or frozen green beans, DO NOT COOK THEM!!! And keep using the carrots and apples as a treat, lol

My chocolate girl Penny is epileptic and her meds made her gain 20klbs, she was 96lbs adn huge, it took me 4 months of diet and exercise and I have gotten her down to 75lbs. Let us know if it works and the kibble you are feeding him is a good quality kibble so he doesn't need the amount that is on the bag, since you feed him 3 cups, give him 1 1/2 cups of kibble in the am with 1/2 to 3/4 cup of green beans and same thing at the PM feeding,

 

[JanS]

I was going to suggest doing exactly as you're doing before I read though. It sounds like you're doing the right research and will have him back on track in no time.

Filling him up on fruits and veggies is certainly better than all of the foreign objects and poop he was wanting before.

 

[DoberMum]

Thanks, Jan. I took a page out of the Weight Watcher's program, thinking about what were considered "free" or low-points value foods that would fill one up, add nutritional value, but have very little impact calorie and fat-wise. Not that I would put my dog on Weight Watcher's, but you get the idea, LOL.

I guess my main concern was enough protein - goodness knows he'd getting enough fiber - and when he's lost the weight, we will figure out how best to transition him to a 22/12 protein/fat content food. We'll keep the fruit and veggies, though, as he seems to really dig them.

I'd be interested in hearing about what others did to help keep their Dobies at an optimum weight.

 

[MyBuddy]

Well, apbtmom should be able to give some advise to you too since she just had her Pit on the 'green bean' diet...I think it was 1/2 cup of dry dog food and 1/2 cup of green beans. Gosh she looks great! Lost about 20 lbs if I'm correct?

I grow a lot of veggies in the garden in the summer and will put cucumbers, zucchini, carrots etc through the food processor and freeze it in a muffin tray = pop them out and keep in the freezer bag so I can use a few at a time...add it to his dry food (giving less dry food) Buddy loves veggies too and putting them through the processor breaks them down a bit too. I heard that things like raw carrots just go right through their track, fast. He's getting something good for him, more 'filler' and he's full with less. He loves to eat and I love that but he's about topping out in weight! He's the biggest Dobe I've ever had - all around, large head, tall, long. Not just in weight. His just a big dog! Every time I look at him, I think, God, he's big! And he's weighed in at almost 95 lbs!

 

[DoberMum]

I took Captain for his weigh-in last Friday and after a week on the "program" he's weighing in at 92.3lbs. When he was weighed in early August he was at 93.7lbs. So, it's working! Yay!

 

[apbtmom76]

And what "program" specifically do you have him on so we can all share I am super happy to hear this, I know it took me 4 months to get 20lbs off of Penny. keep up the good work

 

[MLR]

Ok, I'm coming in in the middle of this. How tall is your dobe first of all. My two guys are both large boned and tall. They both weigh around 100 lbs and they don't have any fat rolls and their both fixed. Who told you your guy was overweight? At 17 months a dobe is still growing. Maybe it's just me but I'd be wanting to get more protein into his diet right now for his bones. I've just started switching mine to the 'healthy weight' formula of the large breed kibble they've been on since they turned two and three respectively. That's all it took for them to lose the few winter pounds that crept up on them this year. That, and cutting back on treats. I'm not saying your not doing the right thing but I'm curious as to the why is all.

 

[DoberMum]

Mary Lou, "Why?" is always a good question.

Captain is currently 30 months old (18 months when we neutered him) and stands 27 inches at the shoulder. As for who said he was fat, the woman who handles for his breeder at the WAC event (very embarrassing - I knew this was going to get back to his breeder! I felt like such a bad Dobermum!) and no few than three people at the Schutzhund training session a couple of weeks ago. "Yes", we said to the handler and trainers, "we know he's picked up a few since he was neutered. Yes, he's a bit lumpy where he should be svelte. Yes, he gets to run every day either at home or at the dog park."

He already gets bits of carrots, apple, banana, watermelon, nectarines, blueberries, etc. for treats. The Wellness Healthy Weight alone at 2 cups am/pm wasn't bringing the pounds off, so we cut him back to 1.5 cups am/pm and all that was doing was making him hungry so he began eating random things (poop, his leather collar, etc). Enter the veggies en mass.

The "program" is one of my own making. Per feeding (am/pm) he gets 1 cup Wellness Healthy Weight kibble and raw, chopped fruit and veggies: half a stalk and crown of broccoli, half an apple, 6 baby carrots and a tablespoon of whole yogurt, with a bit of hot water. In the morning he gets his joint health supplement and his "Omegas" - fish, flax, etc. oil capsules. Depending on how the raw stuff is chopped it can be 2.5 cups or 3 cups. Including the yogurt, about 1000 calories a day. But the bottom line is that he is no longer cruising the kitchen like a shark and eating poo AND he is losing the weight.

 

[DoberMum]

Oh, and he still gets a few treats - like a chunk of banana and the rest of the soy milk from our morning cereal. He is currently sharing a "personal" sized watermelon with my husband.

The Corgi took off with a piece, but as usual, she only wants some because Captain is having some, not because she actually likes it.

 

[MyBuddy]

Well it sounds like your 'plan' is working! My Buddy is a great eater! After watching my last two Dobes dwindle to a skeleton and die, this was a treat to me. Now I realize he can easily get overweight if I don't watch it. To some he may be already but I'd rather be on 'that side' than the other. Just me. I really hate when a dog is FAT but a skeleton hurts me to the core. As I said before, I started with the veggies too and I hope it adds to him feeling 'full' without putting on any more weight.

 

[MLR]

Ok, again this is just me, and I only know one person personally who trains in schutz, but the theory behind their training program is to keep their dogs a little on the lean side and hungry so they'll be more inclined to do the bite work for the kibble the trainer doles out during their sessions; expecially on the day of training. Is that what your doing with him; training in schutz? I mean, to each his own, but I don't think he looks overweight at all. I'm like MyBuddy, I like to see a little meat on my guys bones; no fat roals, but muscle mass and meat all over. This being my first experience raising dobes from puppies, I didn't have this site for reference material in the beginning. I just went by instinct and the size of my males parents. His father weighed 110 lbs so I knew he had the potential to be really big and I gave him Pet Tabs Plus vitamins and large breed puppy kibble right form the beginning. When my female came along 2 years later, well she didn't come form as good a breeding stock as Herc did, but I did everything the same with her and now you almost can't tell the difference between the two except that her face is more pointed as opposed to the square chisled cut of Herc's. By all rights, considering the size of Chloe's mother and father, she shouldn't have grown as big as she did. Right now, at three years old, she stands a full 2 1/2 insches taller than her mother at 26 1/2 inches tall; Herc is about 29 inches tall. I see you are adding meat to his diet so that probably makes an impact protien wise. My only concern was that he may not reach his full potential height wise without sufficient protien in his diet. I like the idea of adding veggies and fruits to their diets, I know my guys love banannas and fruit flavored yougert any time I give it to them. If and/or when mine ever start to put on more pounds than are good for them as they age, they're 3 and 5 like I said, I'm saving your diet to maybe work a little of it into their daily routine. Thanks for sharing it with us novices. BTW, do you have a pre-neuter weight on him? Just curious.

 

[MLR]

I just remeasured Chloe and she's almost 27 1/2 inches tall, not 26 1/2 inches. Opps. I tried to edit my last post but must have let too much time laps. lol

 

[DoberMum]

He was about 88 lbs when we neutered him at 18 months, and we felt that at his age and sexual maturity, this was a good time to neuter. That and I had two bitches coming in heat in December and I didn't need him driven nuts by that - either he or the girls would have had to spend the next 28 days in isolation, which would have been a bummer for all concerned.

Yes, I agree, those Schutzhund people do run their GSDs a little lean for my tastes, whatever their theory behind it, and Captain has no interest in it anyway. The trainer threw the tug toy out in front of him to get a sense of his "prey drive" and Captain looked at John as if to say "dude, you dropped your thing." Captain is too smart for that - you want to asses prey drive with him put something out there that's actually prey - like the neighbor's cat or a squirrel or some random guy running through my yard, not a tug toy. Captain is more suited to actual protection work, not the sport. If he thinks there is a threat, he reacts appropriately - barks, growls, puts himself between me and the threat. The "bite work" in Protection is not about playing tug for him, but given the way he uses his nose, Tracking is going to be his game. The Schutz people really did like his size though, as do I.

The handler that I was referring to was the handler that his breeder uses in the show ring, and she's been handling for ages. She recognized him right away as being a Flonidale dog and said "he's a little fat". Okay, so she didn't say, "Good Lord, he's a TOAD! What the _bleep_ are you feeding him?", but it was in her tone. :-( LOL - you know how they can be!

I like a bigger Dobie and a little substance to them as you do, but he's a bit lumpy over his loins, everywhere else he looks fine. If I can drop another 2 or 3 lbs off of him, I'll be happy and feel like we can show our faces at these events like the Working Aptitude Certification (WAC) and such.

 

[DoberMum]

Mary Lou, I had a look at your photos and I really love the size of your Herc and Chloe!

 

[DoberMum]

MyBuddy - I saw the snapshot of your guy on the treadmill...how is that working for you? I have a friend who puts his Pug on the treadmill.

 

[MyBuddy]

The trainer threw the tug toy out in front of him to get a sense of his "prey drive" and Captain looked at John as if to say "dude, you dropped your thing."

:lolbangtable: LMAO! Still laughing! Buddy would probably do the same thing!

MyBuddy - I saw the snapshot of your guy on the treadmill...how is that working for you? I have a friend who puts his Pug on the treadmill.

It took me a long time to even get him ON it, then STAY on it once I turned it on....but I had it in the basement at the time and decided to move it upstairs where it was near a window and bright and cheery! Then I watched several Dog Whisperer shows with training a dog on a treadmill and tried again, not giving up (it's pretty hard to do when it's only me and a 95 lb dog who doesn't want to stay put!) But I finally got him on and moving! I really was afraid that I scared the sh*t out of him and ruined him for life on it! But though he won't get up on it on his own, I can now lead him over to it and he will get on and start walking without being tied to it or even with me standing close by...I am in the same area with him but I can walk away, do dishes or clean and he'll keep on truckin'! It's pretty nice for the winter when we are not outside as much but for the past few months I'v had it folded upright and not in use! lol We have 10 acres so he runs around here a lot in the summer. I really wanted him trained for the treadmill 'just because'...I knew it could come in handy one day for some extra exercise.

 

[dobebug]

I wouldn't be concerned about stunting the growth of a Doberman with a diet to take off unwanted weight at 17 or 18 months. It would be rare to find a dog whose growth plates hadn't closed by that age. That sort of a diet at 7 or 8 months might concern me but not at his age.

The fact is that dogs are routinely too fat in our world. And people get used to looking at their too fat dogs and don't notice that they've actually added enough weight to eventually be getting into the obese to morbidly obese category.

Most young dogs can carry excess weight without looking "lumpy" and it gives a false sense of security if that is the only criteria that you are using to determine appropriate weight. You should, in a Dobe be able to actually see the shadow of the last three ribs. Looking down on them you should be able to see a distinct waistline. They should have a tuck up. They should not have rolls of fat at the shoulders or hips.

Lean dogs are healthier and live longer than their overweight cousins.

Even with oversized Dobes if a dog is knocking on the 100 pound door he is probably fat and not just big. When I'm showing dogs in conformation they are usually anywhere from 4 to 8 pounds more than they will be when they are out of the conformation ring and actually doing things like agility or tracking. I showed my 28-1/2" male at 90 pounds, but when he finished I trimmed him back to a svelte 85#. He is heavy boned and it would be easy to convince myself that he should weigh more (he'd be more than happy to eat more) but he runs agility and I really don't want him to be anything more than very trim and fit--all the extra weight simply adds potential problems for a dog.

 

[DoberMum]

Dobebug - I totally agree with you. I like them lighter in the fat-department, and I run my Corgi nice and lean because she's big into jumping (on/off the couch, the bed, the mini van, etc.) and she can't turn on a dime and give you a nickle change while herding sheep if she's a toad. It is hard on their joints to be fat.

Captain is now 2.5 years old / 30 months, with that shifted metabolism after losing the family jewels (at 18 months), but the extra fat is coming off. We had him at the vet the other day after picking up something funky at the dog park, and in talking with the vet, she was saying that he's not THAT fat and was concerned that I was going to trim him back too much. I think she's just used to seeing uber-fat dogs, not one at a proper weight for his breed and size. She did think the veggies were a good idea for to feel full, so that was good.

So, progress: He's down another pound this week and I can feel his spine and his ribs, but I can't yet see them with the naked eye. He has two fat pads (lumps) left over his loins, but we are heading in the right direction. I am going to talk to my husband about getting a treadmill. Living in Sacramento it gets so blasted hot that some days we go from one air conditioned place to another, let along to the park for a good run. It'd be good for the bi-peds, too, when we can't get to the gym.

I appreciate all the feedback and support!

 

[MyBuddy]

Dobebug, I think there is a lot of truth to what you said! Especially that people get used to seeing them overweight. I have a friend with a dog that I thought needed to lose a few and she was telling me it's 'muscle'...I grabbed at the dogs sides and came up with a big handful and told her this is not muscle! (no worries, we're good friends!) We were in the vets office at the time and when the vet saw the dog he called her a 'couch potato'....I couldn't even look at my friend! LOL Well, she got that dog down about 15 pounds and he looks WONDERFUL! I mean it, such a difference and now she sees it too!

I feel bad when I see a very overweight dog. Sometimes its such a struggle to walk, but that's talking VERY overweight.

Now, for ME...I am really a realist and fully aware that my Bud is probably on the fringe of being a 'few pounds overweight',lol, even for me. That's one reason for the extra veggies now. And getting him used to the thread mill. But he is the biggest Dobe we've had yet...I mean in all way...height, length even his head is bigger than the others. I don't want him to weigh any more than this, and to even go down a bit is the goal. We are working at it! We walk over our property a lot just for the exercise! When they harvest the corn behind us, I might even try to take him with me when I ride. Just like me, I like to keep him as active as I can.

Funny thing too, is , I've seldom seen a FAT Doberman.