No really he IS purebred - or is he?

[dobiedobie]

@dobiedobie - the only person who seems to be extremely butthurt is yourself. Get over yourself. This thread isn't about your dog.
Also confirmation and standards are pretty important - without standards, you can't have exceptions to them. I know that my fawn is an exception and I abide by the rules for that exception - no shows, no breeding.
When it comes to colour - the reason why people are so critical on this thread is that unscrupulous breeders breed for colour and anything else goes out of the window. Looks at the FB of the NRW kennels. They seem to specialise on unusual colours - that's bad.
I can't really say much about the character of American Dobies, I only know one, the European ones are still pretty much the same as they were bred for originally - alert, assertive, protective, stubborn AF.

When you are trying to diversify the gene pool, introduce a fresh blood to dilute the bottleneck, you will get natural mutation occurences and coat color diversity.

One person was bold enough to do this to a dalmatian in order to solve/lessen the uric acid problem, and bred a dalmatian to an english pointer. Few years later, after breeding it back to dalmatian, breed registry accepted it.

However, let's back in line to my questions -- what is your dog's COI? What health issues they're "at risk" or carrying with?

Damn, why can't you just answer me those simple questions? Like I wasn't even asking about coat color here...

At least with NWR kennels they tested their dogs and they're open on answering the same questions I am asking y'all.

 

[LunaDobie]

@dobiedobie - don't be ridiculous.
COI - why are you so obsessed with it? To justify mixing other breeds into the lineage and say this is a pure-bred Dobie? Asinine.
NWR kennels - have you looked at their FB? They breed albinos, how's that for introducing fresh blood? They breed different colour Dobies not because they are looking to refresh the genepool, they do it because some people are stupidly obsessed with non-standard colours, like melanistic or albino Dobies and think they're cool.

 

[dobiedobie]

@dobiedobie - don't be ridiculous.
COI - why are you so obsessed with it? To justify mixing other breeds into the lineage and say this is a pure-bred Dobie? Asinine.
NWR kennels - have you look at their FB? They breed albinos, how's that for introducing fresh blood? They breed different colour Dobies not because they are looking to refresh the genepool, they do it because some people are stupidly obsessed with non-standard colours, like melanistic or albino Dobies and think they're cool.

Wow! So for someone who is so devoted to standards and health of your Luna, and you don't know anything about how important COI is, and why you should be obsessed about it?

Aside from that, like I said, I've read from page 1 of this thread, and a lot of claiming you health test your dogs, so why are you afraid to put in the numbers to prove me wrong? It would help people and readers to know which dogs are most likely to live long by comparing the data. FYI, there are still those who buy pups for longevity more than looks. I am one of them. Because I had two other champion, fully conformed, yet sickly dogs, I decided to go for healthier route... Having a recessive red is just a perks to me.

Lol, you must be really confused. Please google what COI means.

And where did I say that mixing a new blood says it's a 100% pure dobie?

And where did I say that breeding albinos is the only way to introduce fresh blood? Or, where did I say that NWR kennel is using albinos to introduce fresh blood.

Look through her personal FB, scroll all the way down and you'll see she's trying to do FBB (first breed back).

Ok, I think I see what's the problem here.... You have a problem with the breeder itself, and not with the color coat.

Or was it the other way around? You have a problem with color coat, that's why you have a problem with her?

Are you even aware that there exist classic standard colors and still not 100% pure, but why are you not grilling them?

So it must be the color coat then... Forget if the dog isn't 100% dobie, Forget if the dog will likely to drop dead at 2 years, Forget if the dog comes in a lineage where the gene pool is bottleneck, Forget if the dog doesn't have attitude/character/temperament of a doberman... So long as it "conforms" to your eyes, they're dobermans, am I right?

So we should likely ditch the health testing, because apparently, "guestimating" is way more accurate, did I get that right?

 

[Panama]

To which I also said -- you gotta own one, before you judge it.

No thanks! I couldn't be paid enough to own one! I have yet to see one that even resembles a Doberman. A German Pinscher maybe, but not a Doberman.

Not to mention, I've met a few dobermans in the local shows here (before pandemic started), and their temparement is nothing close to how a doberman should behave when approached by strangers.

I show my dogs. They are very friendly in a show environment.... but at the RV spot or hotel, he will not let anyone approach me or him unless I walk up to them. My boy has an amazing temperament and character & will react accordingly.

Ok, I think I see what's the problem here.... You have a problem with the breeder itself, and not with the color coat.

Or was it the other way around? You have a problem with color coat, that's why you have a problem with her?

For me, it's a matter of breeding ethics, or should I say lack of.?

 

[LunaDobie]

@dobiedobie - if someone seems to be personally involved, it's you.
I haven't heard of this particular breeder till I saw the thread. That's when I looked at their FB and what I saw horrified me.
I don't have a problem with a colour of their coat. I have a fawn myself, I would be hypocritical if I criticised someone for a non-standard coat.
The issue is whether a Dobie with a non-standard colour and a gene which isn't Dobie own is a pure-bred Dobie. No, it's not. The colour isn't compliant with Dobie standards in US, which already allow for more diversity than let's say Europe where my fawn can't be shown and/or bred.
Stop throwing the toys out of a pram and get tantrums every time someone refuses to share your obsession with COI. You want to refresh the breed? Go and sort it out with whatever authorities are responsible for Dobermann and Doberman Pinscher breed standards. We are not discussing the COI here, we are not discussing changing the breed standards. We are talking about a breeder who says they breed pure-bred Dobermans while showing dogs which don't conform to any of the Dobie standards, American or European.

 

[dobiedobie]

Doberman, in itself, is a mixture of breeds; we just don't know what breeds did Karl used. Some says GSDs, some Rotties, some Beaucerons, some German Pins. So I would not be surprised if two recessive genes comes out when they are matched. Hence why they call it "recessive".

So these "doberman authorities", are they canine geneticists? Do they study genes? Are they holding PhDs on these areas?

And also, a note for you -- when you refresh or dilute a dog's bottleneck line, you don't miraculously "get" the conformation right away and expect perfectly doberman looking on the first gen pups. It takes at least 3 (or way better, 5) generations to make it 100% pure again, which explains why your pedigree papers are recording up to 5 gens.

So when someone says it's purebred and you're doubtful, ask for a proof. Have you asked a proof from NWR kennel?

As far as I can see, her dogs are tested and are pure. She also helps with Doberman Diversity Project (now that's what I call real doberman authority-- someone who is science-backed, studies genetics and how it works, and are willing to explain things you dont' understand, not some "guestimating" through someone's eye).

And she also discloses those "project litters" that she mixed breed that they're mixed breed.

Having to ask you about your dog's COI over and over again, is not an obsession; it's because you are not answering the question. Let me know your dog's COI, plus with the health genes also, and let's compare it.

You labelling my questions that you fail to answer over and over again as "obsession", again, is irrelevant.

However the fact that you refuse to share it amplifies a LOT of things. What are you afraid of?

I already shared to you my dog's data and that he is perfectly healthy, unlike your Luna (I really think those problems are hereditary, not really associated with coat color).

Another note here is that, I know some here who imported an albino doberman from US. I don't know where they bought it or from what breeder, but when I see the dog, it isn't sensitive to sunlight whatsoever. The coat is not thinning. It wasn't how I expected it to be, as what others advertised it.

 

[LunaDobie]

I already shared to you my dog's data and that he is perfectly healthy, unlike your Luna (I really think those problems are hereditary, not really associated with coat color).

I think this sentence pretty much showcased how much you know about colour dilutes. Please, go and learn something new you didn't know about.

 

[LifeofRubie]

@dobiedobie I feel like you joined the forum with guns blazing, unfortunately! No one knows you or is personally attacking you or your dogs.

This site has many respected members with a plethora of experience in all aspects of Dobermans; showing, breeding, competing, and even just regular ole and beloved "pets." Everyone has different views from different perspectives and that's allowed and expected!

If you come on here and drop words like "butthurt" in your first sentence, I think you're closing the doors for productive conversation and the opportunity to learn.

 

[Lizbeli]

I own a recessive red right now, 100% doberman (tested twice) with CLEAR on any health issues (as far as genetic hereditary), no health problems, no sunlight problems, no alopecia, very athletic and agile. He looks very majestic especially during early morning sunlight. In fact, he is the most healthiest of my pack right now. I

Do you have any photos of your dog stacked? Genuine curiosity. I don’t know much of genetics regarding coat color, but conformation is more important to me than that. I just know the photos of the dogs previously posted on this thread look terrible. But yours is from a different breeder. Just curious whats out there.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

So you'd rather turn your back here, instead of answering my two questions about your dogs and prove me wrong?

I didn't even said that you have to pretend to be an expert. You can believe with breed standards all day long, but at the end of the day, does your dog came from a bottleneck gene pool, with very high COI? Is your dog carrying genetic health risk or carrying it?

If you can't answer it and refute how a recessive red be discriminated when it's 100% doberman and way way more healthier than your dogs, then you've lost the argument.

I'm personally not opposed to challenging the status quo and seeking truth as much as possible, but you came in here in and insulting fashion and have been rude and abrasive. You've been met with more patience than I would have shown. Would you walk up to a group of people on the street or in a restaurant and start right off with "hey, you're butt hurt" and demand they show proof of things?

 

[Ravenbird]

My dogs COI is 41%. She is VWD clear, Dings clear, DCM1 clear, DCM2 clear. I know that it means nothing unless I wanted to breed her - she is what she is - and she can still die of heart disease or cancer. She was also clear of 190 other canine genetic disease markers, not specific to Dobermans. If most of the members of this forum are not breeders they don't really have a reason to know the COI. I agree with you it's a sad affair, I'm not proud of 41% at all. BUT, If I want a COI of less than 10 or 20% I'd go to the shelter and pick a Heinz 37, rather than pay $1500+ to collar up something that looks nothing like a Dobe and probably doesn't have the traits I want for a hard working dog. But I wanted a Doberman, and I wanted one that looks like one and acts like one. I have nothing against Dobermans of different allowed colors, but I do have a problem with breeders who are irresponsible, which the subject of this thread totally is. Project litters / out-crossing have been a subject here on different threads and I don't have any problem with that, but at this point I've never seen that they will be allowed to re-enter AKC, in which point the project would be mute. And until those project litters are proven to be worthy cross-bred, then bred back to Dobermans to the point where they at least LOOK like Dobermans, I'd say it's not a good project. Why not just start your own outcrossed Dobie-doodle dog, and call it a Dobie-doodle with less chance of DCM? If it looks like a Pharaoh or a Great Dane or a Visla then whats the point of it being called a Doberman? When you quit breeding for standard, they quit looking like the breed. There are a variety of Doberman "types" - the slimmer, lighter American, the heavy, blocky Euros, the in-between working type and Am/Euro crosses, the South American and the back yard bred Dobes that still look like Dobermans. Those dogs pictured on this thread from that color-breeder could not possibly pass for a Doberman.

Here's my Doberman Pinscher, could you share a photo of yours, @dobiedobie ? And could you tell us what you do with it and if you show or do barn hunt, or nose work or compete in obedience or bite sports? Tell us what you & your dog do, besides having excellent genes, that would make me want one. Maybe he/she is just a pet? That's fine too, I'm just curious if you are going to be a breeder since your dog has all the fine genetic traits, you should prove him in some venue to show he's worthy of passing those genes on.

 

[Panama]

The German Pinscher is in the genetic make-up of the Doberman, correct?

 

[LunaDobie]

The German Pinscher is in the genetic make-up of the Doberman, correct?

It is. It also has to be pointed out that there are visible differences in how a European Dobermann and an American Doberman Pinscher look like. When we first met Caoimhe, my Luna's bestie, she was 3 months old and half the size of my pup who was the same age. We didn't know if she was a German Pinscher because you don't see the American DPs over here too often, turns out she was an American Dobie and the runt of the litter which makes her rather small while Luna comes from a line of big Dobies. There are also differences in their behaviour, Luna would be more assertive and less anxious and clingy than Caoimhe while still being the velcro dog.
I would be really interested in how @dobiedobie dog looks like too, for all his verbal flooding, he never showed his dog's photo.

 

[LunaDobie]

This is my fawn Dobermann Luna, she's going to be 15 months next week so still a very lanky teenager.

 

[Firestar Dobe]

Wonder if dobiedobie will post pics of his dog, if he comes back. I am all for trying to improve the breed. I just don't understand someone who loves Dobermans, but gets a "Doberman" that looks nothing like a quality bred Doberman. If I can't tell it's a Doberman, why would I want it! Just sayin!

 

[Firestar Dobe]

This is my fawn Dobermann Luna, she's going to be 15 months next week so still a very lanky teenager.

View attachment 119874

She has the sweetest face!

 

[LunaDobie]

She has the sweetest face!

Thank you so much. She is a proper European Dobie, stubborn, assertive but she's also very open and social. Loves children and let's them pet her without any problems, just lies down and patiently waits for them to pet her back. She's hard work because she's high drive and high energy but at the same time, her love is really unconditional. It's difficult to resist her puppy eyes but we have to stay strong