Is NO dog/dog Socialization Good

[Brevig]

So I've been reading some posts on the forum that have made me rethink socialization. Below are 2 quotes that hit the hardest:

"But you do not let them greet or play with other people and dogs, just you, this is proper socializing. Strangers and their dogs are neutral and everything good now is with you. If your dog is never allowed to go on there own to met strangers they won’t try to leave you because they are expecting a play session with their favorite person, You!!!"

"as far as socialization, bring him out and about. Go places with him, however don’t let people pet him or interact with him, same thing with strangers dogs. Socializing isn’t having him interact with everyone you come in contact with, it’s him learning “yes there are other people and dogs out there. However I don’t need to interact with them”."

So what I'm wondering, is if that applies also to a dog which has 0 interaction with other dogs, or is it important for a Doberman to have some dog/dog socialization?

 

[Brevig]

RECENT DETAILS:
I wanted to put this separate from the main post to avoid distraction from the question. I live in Cambodia, and here street dogs are a real problem. Taking my dog on a walk down the wrong road is like WW3 (but no worries as the dogs never attack as they are scared of humans). So basically all the interaction my dog gets from other dogs is negative, with street dogs constantly showing their teeth. I've tried to let her meet dogs but it always ends with them showing teeth once she gets within 1-2 feet, her going down into her play (wag your but) stance, and them running off OR acting more aggressive (and me moving her along throughout the process).

So now she is in heat. Now the dogs actually want to play with her (seems 80+% of the dogs are male here). So normally late at night I take her on a longer walk with a 20 yard lead. I've been letting her play thinking that it is important she gets some good experiences with other dogs so she doesn't become dog aggressive (which is important with pitbulls, my previous dogs). I don't want her thinking all dogs are enemies. Anyways, so I've let them know for maybe 5-6 days to play for like 15 min with street dogs at the furthest point of our walk. Mostly she jumps on them, they try to sniff her, and she flips around. And if she stops flipping and lets them lick then it's time to go.

The dogs are very reserved around humans and if I chase them or act rough they run away. Some do try to stalk her, which is more of an issue of her taking off on the chain or being hard to control, but now she knows just to walk with me and the dogs won't go past a certain point (so our situation does seem livable). She has never growled at a dog or shown any aggression (but she is still young, almost 8, around the age pits start showing aggression more).

 

[MyBuddy]

So now she is in heat. Now the dogs actually want to play with her (seems 80+% of the dogs are male here). So normally late at night I take her on a longer walk with a 20 yard lead. I've been letting her play thinking that it is important she gets some good experiences with other dogs so she doesn't become dog aggressive

Dangerous idea to me. Of course they are interested now! Shes in heat! You (her) could be in real trouble if one or several males are allowed to mount her. You will have an accidental mixed litter on your hands. With that many males around you will need to be very diligent in protecting her from that. Males with go through or over a six foot wall when they smell a female in heat! This is not the time for socializing.

 

[MyBuddy]

@crypticintent You disagree?

 

[jim g]

"But you do not let them greet or play with other people and dogs, just you, this is proper socializing. Strangers and their dogs are neutral and everything good now is with you. If your dog is never allowed to go on there own to met strangers they won’t try to leave you because they are expecting a play session with their favorite person, You!!!"

"as far as socialization, bring him out and about. Go places with him, however don’t let people pet him or interact with him, same thing with strangers dogs. Socializing isn’t having him interact with everyone you come in contact with, it’s him learning “yes there are other people and dogs out there. However I don’t need to interact with them”.

Yeah I'm going to disagree big time with this one.
We all live in different environments, some very similar, some not so much. Each environment whether it be Cambodia or rural Colorado will have different day to day circumstances so you have to operate accordingly.
I couldn't advise you how you and your dog should behave in Cambodia.
What I do know is I've had three great dogs that were allowed and encouraged to socialize with people and other dogs and all three had/have no personality issues, no aggressive behavior and totally trustworthy around other dogs, adults and small children.
That's the way I want it, anything less is a liability.
just my .02

 

[crypticintent]

@crypticintent You disagree?

didn’t realize I hit the disagree button scrolling through.

 

[MyBuddy]

didn’t realize I hit the disagree button scrolling through.

Ohh! LOL

 

[Antman408]

I was the person you quoted in the second paragraph and I stand by it and the previous paragraph as well. Your dog doesn’t need friends, your dog needs you. You want your dog to be neutral to other people and animals. When you allow your dog to interact freely with other dogs and people you’re decreasing the value of yourself to your dog

@Doberman Gang can explain this better than i can.

 

[jazzies mum]

I live in a rural area in Australia where most of the dogs we come across on our walks are roaming. Not feral, but out on their own which brings it's own problems. I do not allow Jazz to play with these dogs but they will approach regardless so I do allow a calm greeting if the dog isn't aggressive, then just move on. More difficult when Jazz was a puppy, but now she expects to ignore other dogs that come into her orbit.

However I did want her to be able to be happy in the company of other dogs when required and she has spent time with friends dogs just playing and interacting. She has good dog social skills now and is safe to leave free with them with no issues, but I would not do this with unknown dogs!

 

[GennyB]

Males with go through or over a six foot wall when they smell a female in heat!

Not to mention fight for breeding rights.

I just have to say, not sure I would be walking her ANYWHERE! No doubt the feral dogs don't get any Veterinary care. Probably sick and full of parasites. I can't begin to imagine the stench from dog poop and OMG the disease it must be full of. Keep in mind dog poop left to decompose can leave those diseases in the ground for years.

 

[Doberman Gang]

I don’t live where wild dogs are allowed or even off leash dogs are allowed. They would all be picked up by animal control. But I am still a firm believer in my dogs only need to be ok with outside distractions of strangers and strangers dogs. They need to be looking to me for guidance, I am there favorite thing, the one that feeds them, lets them out to potty and plays with them. They need nothing else but to feel secure when out with me.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I certainly see the value in working on having one's dog focus only on the owner. I have always thought, however, that it is important to have my Dobe familiar and comfortable with how to handle other dogs.

I would hate to, and find it unfair and dangerous to, have my Dobe be stymied when a dog comes up to us. My Dobe might freeze with fear, or he might lash out in aggression.

So even though ours is a "manmade" breed whose job it is to guard us against (mainly) human threats, I need him to handle himself confidently and effectively around dogs.

 

[Brevig]

Of course they are interested now! Shes in heat!

Yeah, I was initially thinking "ohh, now they are friendly, so let her get some friendly exchange", but then in another week or two they will just return to aggressive which might even make her more dog aggressive.

Males with go through or over a six foot wall when they smell a female in heat!

Yeah, it's been real hell for the past week. She is on day 15 currently. Now at night time and even daytime there are dogs outside our apartment (after going under the fence), and a big pain keeping her from barking when there is a dog right outside, even one was scratching at the door. She isn't allowed outside without both the 20 yard lead (or leash) AND supervision. But yeah, I'm tired of cleaning up all their nasty, small poop.

Not to mention fight for breeding rights. I just have to say, not sure I would be walking her ANYWHERE! No doubt the feral dogs don't get any Veterinary care.

You are right, they are nasty dogs and probably never had a shot. They do fight, I hear it all night. For walking it's safe if she is with me. These dogs are very scared of humans, and simply raising your hand and an aggressive stance sends them running.

 

[Brevig]

I do not allow Jazz to play with these dogs but they will approach regardless so I do allow a calm greeting if the dog isn't aggressive, then just move on. More difficult when Jazz was a puppy, but now she expects to ignore other dogs that come into her orbit.

This seems like the best advice for my situation. To let her greet a dog that approaches her, but otherwise just keep going. This is basically what we've been doing. She is actually cool with that even in heat.

I guess it's kinda like cats. I don't have a need for her to play with cats, just I don't want her aggressive towards them or taking off after them. So it's more about having her around cats (dogs, chickens, etc.) and totally ignoring them. I was just worried it could cause issues if she never socialized with dogs, but it seems it's not needed, as that's not the intention of the breed.

And for sure it seems poor socialization, which is all I can provide, is worst than no socialization.

In some ways my environment could work out good, as I have plenty of opportunities to teach her to ignore dogs.

Funny thing, so the dogs are coming into the gate at night attracted by her smell. More than half of the dogs will take one look at her and take off, like wow, this dog is more than I can handle, haha.

 

[GennyB]

You are right, they are nasty dogs and probably never had a shot.

And no one sees this as a problem? How many dogs do you think there are?
Sorry I just can't get past the vision that story your above put in my head. That probably has something to do with a trip we took years ago. We went to San Diego to visit some family. They decided to show us around. Part of that was a day trip to Tijuana, Mexico. OMG! It was deplorable. There were vendors selling meat in the street that had bats and sticks to fight off the feral dogs trying to get a meal. Needless to say that trip was a waste of time, we lasted a whole 3 minutes.

 

[MyBuddy]

Yeah, it's been real hell for the past week. She is on day 15 currently. Now at night time and even daytime there are dogs outside our apartment (after going under the fence), and a big pain keeping her from barking when there is a dog right outside, even one was scratching at the door. She isn't allowed outside without both the 20 yard lead (or leash) AND supervision.

Oh, man. This would drive me nuts. And makes me fear for her. I guess the only consolation is that they are afraid of humans. So hopefully you can just wave your hand and they leave your dog alone. But how difficult it must be to be walking and have all these dogs climbing over each other to try and get to your girl.

 

[Brevig]

And no one sees this as a problem? How many dogs do you think there are?

Most locals seem to either ignore or not like the street dogs, so not sure why they don't clean it up.

Within 0-150 yards going west from the gate there are 7-8 street dogs. I always go west when walking her, and in the 1/2 mile, 1-way trip we'll pass by 10-15 street dogs along the way, and another 8-12 dogs behind gates barking. Going down the wrong road though can quickly lead to more dogs. It's kinda like turf wars, where a dog from one block won't be allowed outside it's turf. During the daytime a week ago I took Jessica to a friends house and within 15 minutes I counted 18 dogs that were within a basketball court sized area.

The nastiness of the dogs is probably similar here to Tijuana, just here dogs tend to be a bit smaller, and more squirmish. Also, It's a pretty clean city here, very low crime, and lot's of tourists. Maybe in the near future they will start to take action, as it really is the nastiest thing about a city dependent on tourism.

 

[CrisK]

I have been working on socializing my 8-month-old. She's very reactive to people and dogs on the street. I am trying to work from a long distance, but sometimes people walk towards us and Gypsy will pull and bark at them. Mind you, they are still very far that she can't reach them and I can barely make out their faces. The pandemic threw my socialization plans out the window - we had plans to bring people over and go everywhere with her. My goal with this pup was to make her my companion for walks and runs at the park. I don't think all is lost, but it's taking a long time with her. I am wondering if I should hire a trainer to maybe see what I could differently in those situations. She tends to lose her mind too quickly, and giving her commands that otherwise she would respond to doesn't work. I try to move her away from the situation when I see her getting too focused on anything in the environment. Last time I took her out to socialize, we were in a parking lot by the park. I was going to try to walk with her towards a bridge that was not too far. We stayed near the car after all because she was so tense and pulling so hard toward the people and other dogs. I want her to not have any reactions when she sees strangers and their dogs. She was fine when she was a puppy. We did take her everywhere, she saw strangers other dogs and her reaction was not so bad. Something changed.

 

[jazzies mum]

She is still a puppy at 8 months although they look mature at that age! My girl had a fear stage around that age and was alternatively excitable and fearful of strange dogs. I found that being as neutral as possible myself and keeping the stressful situations short worked in the end. All dogs are different but I found reward with a toy was much more effective than food rewards for keeping attention on me instead of the incomers. Specifically the treasured "chuckit"! Just hang in there and try to stay positive and calm.