High prey drive leading to aggression and attempted bite. Please help!

[Fluffycloud]

Hello all, I am looking for some advice and guidance.

I have a 3 year old very strong and large male Doberman. He has a very high prey drive which most of the time is fine and can use to my advantage with exercise and training. His obedience is pretty good I.e knows his commands, walks very nicely on a leash and 99% of the time listens…the problem i am facing is the other 1%. It doesn’t happen often but when it does it’s very bad. His excitement or drive will turn from playful to (what seems to me) aggression. He will go within milliseconds to being fun and playful to attempting to attack someone or something.

It was bad when he was younger but with education on my part to learn his body language and triggers, and a lot of obedience training it’s become lesser and a bit more manageable in terms of prevention or allowing him to get a hold of what he has his eyes locked on.
However he is unpredictable and it’s a struggle to have him around people. I have to take great precaution with friends and family. Of course I understand his purpose is protection but I am not sure if this is protection because it’s with people he knows and was playing with just a second ago. Most recently he attempted to bite my partner and got a hold of and ripped his sweatshirt….was attempting to readjust/bite again to get ahold oh him.

Some other background info: he was a singleton pup and I have had him since he was 8 weeks old, he has had no protection or bite training, he has some dog reactivity but we are working on that through training and desensitisation. He is not neutered (decision on this is based on vet advising it could have the opposite effect and his behaviour could become worse), i am a female handler, he I my second dog l…we have one other dog (5yr old neutered female dobe) no issues with her or their relationship, no resource guarding issues or other behavioural problems, corrections via a prong collar but have a grock on in case of emergency/he attempts a bite.

We see a professional trainer every other week (3rd one as the previous two told me they are unable to help) - they have never witnessed him behave like this so it’s difficult to explain the extent of his actions. Any advice you have will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Cferg]

Can you give anymore details on what is going on when he has attempted to bite?

 

[Oh Little Oji]

So you believe it's prey drive and/or excitement that gets him to act out aggressively and attempt to bite even those with whom he has already been friendly? I see you say it's not resource guarding.
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I had a Dobe that would unpredictably lash out at people, including my wife who had known and raised him alongside me since he was about 10 weeks old. Sometimes this looked like resource guarding (the resource being access to Alpha, his main man, me) . Other times not so much. He was trained very well by me, and we also did reach out to a trainer for a consultation; and I finally contacted his breeder. All told, we chalk it up to he had a screw loose upstairs. His littermate had to be put down a few years prior.

Interestingly, and perhaps not relevant, he was from a litter of just 2 pups and the dam was on the older end as was the sire (at the time an 11-time Schutzhund III) (who I later found out was pretty inbred). His breeder is a veterinarian and quite experienced, going way back, in working Dobermans.

 

[Ravenbird]

What @Cferg said: please give an example of before/during bites and what you do/have done for recourse. It's too vague to understand what's causing it - you mention triggers, but not what they are.

Many singletons are known to have little bite inhibition - generally learned from siblings and mother. You got him at 8 weeks, which is a bit premature as his mother may not have had to snap at him to wean him off. That teaches a puppy that if he bites too hard (trying to nurse, now with baby teeth) she will correct him. Sibling play always involves biting, chasing, and learning back and forth that biting hurts and not to get too hard with "family". It's not 100%, but it is a thing.

In the meanwhile - management. You have control, a collar and leash, you see him aroused, bring him to your side at a sit or a down and cut off all the engagement.

 

[Fluffycloud]

Sorry! Getting to grips with replies and quotes…

 

[Fluffycloud]

So you believe it's prey drive and/or excitement that gets him to act out aggressively and attempt to bite even those with whom he has already been friendly? I see you say it's not resource guarding.

What @Cferg said: please give an example of before/during bites and what you do/have done for recourse. It's too vague to understand what's causing it - you mention triggers, but not what they are.

Many singletons are known to have little bite inhibition - generally learned from siblings and mother. You got him at 8 weeks, which is a bit premature as his mother may not have had to snap at him to wean him off. That teaches a puppy that if he bites too hard (trying to nurse, now with baby teeth) she will correct him. Sibling play always involves biting, chasing, and learning back and forth that biting hurts and not to get too hard with "family". It's not 100%, but it is a thing.

Examples:
In terms of my (novice!) opinion on drive excitement related. The last 3 times it’s occurred:
1) my brother and I (13 tall but very slim and slinky) were doing some agility training, the dog had just gone through the tunnel for the first time. We were praising him a lot and there was a very excited energy (high pitch voices lots of good boys well done etc) the dog was bouncing around and then started jumping up at my brother. This was an excited let’s play jump. After the first jump his demeanour very quickly changed. Just As I tried to step on his leash to correct the dog tried to grab a hold of brothers side and he started running. The dog then chasing him trying to get a hold of him. As soon he stopped he calmed a little but still attempted a bite. I got a hold of him very firmly
Corrected and took him put him in a down and he stayed there till he had calmed down.

Second time: my partner had come to visit both dogs got very excited and playful, again within a split second body stiffened eyes locked. I stupidly hasn’t leashed him prior as there had been no incidents before and they have a great relationship. I grabbed him by the collar trying to hold him back but he has already tried to get his arm except this time it wasn’t playful he was growing and really trying to get a hold of him. It took a lot of strength to hold him back. The only way I can describe it is during a game of tug when when they miss the object and go on in again to get a hold of it. He ripped his thick sweatshirt and grazed the arm.

Third time: he was on a leash following the prior incident. Partner and I in the garden with both dogs all ok. Partner and other dog are playing and have a bit of a cuddle - again dogs demeanour changed but I managed to correct him before he lunged as he was leashed. His eyes were locked but took away to disengage and then all okay again.

Apprx 9 months ago we were taking a walk. He saw a big dog and went nuts barking snarling lunging. I corrected but it wasn’t enough…once he’s like that no amount of physical correction stops him. I’m sure there is a better way to correct but this is my first time dealing with this and I’m still learning. Anyway I tried to get infront of him and move him back to calm down and he redirected onto my thigh. I want to say as soon as he realised he stopped but I can’t be sure. He has never previously or since redirected but I have out a lot of effort to address this issue. (Only bigger dogs at a distance caused aggravation)

Triggers
These were triggers for aggressive reaction rather than the unpredictable examples mentioned above. (Now as I am typing likely to go hand in hand) but they included anyone getting too close to vehicle. Anyone with their head covered, men particularly bald and tall, white vans, bicycles, children. Please understand I say this as an observation as I to am a women of colour but he really struggled with dark skinned black men.
anybody verbally shouting would within vicinity or what seemed to be directed at me would also start him off.
These have drastically decreased over the last year but the biting and unpredictable attacks still occurring.

Singleton pup
In hindsight I think you are correct on the 8 weeks but where we reside in England it’s the normal age to take a puppy home….I tried my best to socialise him with other dogs and people but it was the the summer of 2020 and covid restrictions were still high in England.
The parents of the dog seem ok I did (again novice opinion) check on the background and inbred percentages on Kennel Club.

Hopefully this provide a bit more insight as I really need some help lol


@oh little oji….if similar to yours and a screw loose, what did you end up doing? How did you manage it?

Thanks all

 

[Fluffycloud]

Sorry I forgot to add…..never had issues with biting or puppy nipping which now seems very strange. Aggression started at 7 months and the actual attack attempts around 13/14 months.

 

[Ddski5]

My past male Doberman was similar to this. Similar in the manner of I could see him hype up into the prey/intense drive. Once he got to a certain level, no amount of intervention would bring him out of it.
So much that his reactivity to animals, at one point, was very dangerous. I really had to watch around the corner and be prepared/proactive for a potential situation.

My solution:
Train and desensitize with a prong collar. I gave him no mercy either…I knew that we had to nip this or I would never trust him in public around people/dogs. My plan for him was to be my companion when I went to soccer fields to watch my daughters play so this had to end and I had to have trust and discipline.

We would move forward towards the antagonist stim and as I saw him hype up, I would take him through play and training to put focus on me and my expectations. That kinda worked…what really did work was serious discipline commands and if he ignored me and continued to amp up with growl/bark/heavy breathing and then lunging- I would literally lift up the short leash with the prong high and hard literally hanging him high.

The play and easy training worked to provide focus on me. Good things come from me in the area of the antagonist stim but that asshat would amp up hard and fast. As said, lifting him up with a prong collar snapped him right out of that intense prey drive and his focus came back to me. It is really Jekyll and Hyde.

We worked on this for prob 6-8months and most definitely titered it down from a 10/10 to prob a 3/10. Also able to move from the short leash with prong collar to a ECollar. I don’t think I ever eliminated it completely but I was able to stop it when he alerted hard and started heavy breathing.

 

[Ravenbird]

Your new description does sound like serious dog behavior problem. You say you have a professional trainer come every other week who hasn't seen this behavior in person. What does this trainer help with? If there is no medical reason (Vet check / Thyroid Panel is recommended just to make sure this isn't a medical issue) I would work on intense obedience with distractions, assuming you have your basic obedience down. When I say intense, I mean quick response, focus on you, introducing sits/downs/stays in public, then in busy areas, etc. I understand e-collars are banned in UK, but this is just one more example of a type of dog which would benefit from that type of tool. He's big & strong and potentially dangerous and if he gets out of control one day it could cost him his life. The better his obedience is the better you can control him, but management will always be expected.

The parents of the dog seem ok I did (again novice opinion) check on the background

Is your dogs pedigree from working lines (SchH or other Bite sports)? Or show or pet breeders? The incidents - especially with your brother - does sound like excitement spinning out of control. My dog tends to do that if we have a big reward party and I let her jump, she gets wild in a hurry. I rarely do this and have to put her in a down quickly so she doesn't escalate. But I can say Platz in the middle of extreme crazies and she will drop to the ground instantly. This is what I mean my intense obedience.

@Ddski5 just said what I was going to add. You have a hard dog, you will need to make your corrections very clear and leave no doubt in your dogs mind that you mean business.

Best of luck, let us know of your progress.

 

[Ddski5]

These have drastically decreased over the last year but the biting and unpredictable attacks still occurring.

The only way to get control of this is constantly have your head on a swivel and see it before it happens…then be prepared as he amps up to bring him back down on your terms and your command.

You can find the antagonist stim and purposely move into it and train there in a controlled manner. As he gets out of control…either YOU reestablish control or move out of the antagonist stim- moving in/out losing and gaining.

Regardless, he must learn to focus on you, follow your commands and look to you when he amps up.

Good luck…a lot of training involved here. Time, energy, consistency and persistence.

You can do it….hell, I did it and have zero formal training. Just went to the outside of dog parks and moved in/out of controlled manner. Went to soccer parks, football stadiums, bird sanctuary’s, animal zoo. Anything that would amp him up really high and hard.

In the end, I did not completely neutralize it but always keeping my head on a swivel and knowing his levels…I was able to bring him down with noticing his crazy eye and heavy breathing.

This is him as he amps up to a large egret bird at a swamp zoo.

 

[Ddski5]

This is also him sitting in my yard watching my daughter train and being stimmed- jacked up by the geese in the yard across the street.


I am acutely aware of him starting to amp up and begin verbal commands to remind him I am the one that calls the shots and he is NOT ALLOWED to amp up and get out of control.

At this point of his life, I am confident to have him off leash in any given situation but as you can see…I have the ECollar as back up.

Yes, he has broke command before but I am able to correct him up to 100yards. That ECollar stim can either lightly tap him on the shoulder and say hey you asshat…better listen to dad or you’re gonna really get it. Or I can move it to 75-100 and knock his arse to the ground. Yes, that has been done many times but he never got hit by a car or attacked anyone/anything. It really only takes a couple of hard stims and he learned quickly.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

@oh little oji….if similar to yours and a screw loose, what did you end up doing? How did you manage it?

Hey, I forgot to reply yesterday,

I finally contacted the breeder (who had been unreachable since years earlier and I thought she was mad at me because I didn't officially "work" the dog and put Schutzhund titles on him) and after learning what I touched upon above, it was decided that I could return him to her (at the age of about 7+ years) but I'd have to pay the airfare to ship him. I just could not. No way I could just ship of my dog like that, or get rid of him. It wasn't his fault. He had a problem.

We managed it: I did do, on a couple occasions, a takedown and mount of the dog winding up with my hands around his throat. Yes, yes, controversial and some of you will hate me; but he had gone after my wife and that could not stand. Looking back, I feel sorrow that it had to come to that. But other than that, it was just avoiding situations that were dangerous. Once we had our first child, things got much more stressful and complex. It was at this time that I had contacted the breeder. We just had to keep our child away from him, or very very closely monitor things. One time in the kitchen he got that look in his eye and started to stiffen up and I was right there to put my body between him and our little daughter and diffused it and removed him to another room.

He wound up dying of bloat while being boarded. It was a trip I had to take to my wife's grandfather's funeral. The boafrding kennel, I believe, did not follow my instructions and they let him gorge himself on water on a very hot day after exercise.

 

[Cranekc35]

How much mental stimulation is he getting? Remember you need to do some physical stimulation, but more mental stimulation to give them an outlet. My boy would get frustrated and act like this until I learned to meet both needs every day.

 

[Kaiser2016]

Your new description does sound like serious dog behavior problem. You say you have a professional trainer come every other week who hasn't seen this behavior in person. What does this trainer help with?

That's my impression too. I suggest looking up a dog behaviorist instead of a trainer. This person will have working dog background - think police dog trainers, German Shepherd trainers, or GS dog training clubs. They are perfectly equipped to assess and handle such a dog. And then, they will be able to give you a reference to a suitable trainer that you can use going forward.

In the meantime, I'd also look into NILIF training. Make the dog work for everything around the home. It builds respect and reinforces that you're the leader. If you've been babying him at all (I know it's easy to!), that needs to be toned down too. You CAN be nice, but first you have to become the boss.