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Help please

Discussion in 'Doberman Talk and Discussions' started by Wolvesnsheep, Jan 3, 2020.

  1. Wolvesnsheep

    Wolvesnsheep New Member

    I just got a 10 month old intact male. Long story condensed, people I got him from lied about everything, including the fact they had him only 6 weeks rather than from birth. They got him to breed with their female. But he and she are both too young. Blah blah blah,,, the mans hand was wrapped in bandages he said from knife slipping. Ok, so the dog doesn’t know how to walk properly, but shows signs that he may once have before spending 6 weeks in crate. He has very poor house manners but I believe can be taught fairly easy. I was told he was raised around kids, but woman said After I had him that she’s not sure because he never was with them. I have 7 grandkids that some are at my house daily for hours. He has shown no aggression with them, but I keep him in crate or muzzled when they are here. Okay, finally my question, when he gets mad, he snaps his jaws, shows his teeth and growls and barks at me, and refuses to sit when told, he just stands there and stares at me, like not backing down. I do not yell at him I just speak firmly. Is this something that can be worked through? How? I believe the man was somewhat a mean jerk to him, he shows no signs of being abused other than 24/7 crate and no walks. My oldest son thinks this is something that cannot be worked through and worries about children. I have always had shepherds only once long ago had dobie. He IS scheduled to be neutered in 2 weeks. Please, I need serious strong advice. Thank you

     

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  2. Viemarangelrock

    Viemarangelrock Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    First off, neutering him so young will NOT ‘cure’ his behaviour (if that’s what you’re thinking?!) but training does.

    Sounds like he’s lived a very boring, uneventful life. I would certainly work on his self confidence. Training makes a dog feel good - so do lots. I believe gobby, mouthy, snappy dogs are generally very unconfident. Confident dogs have no need of such displays because they are sure of their own abilities. Him acting out like that? That’s him being defensive, IMO.

    You need to concentrate on the problem behavioural areas. Be a strong, confident leader. He’ll be a more balanced dog if you do and respect you more for it.

    Keeping both the children and the dog safe are a high priority.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2020
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  3. JanS

    JanS DCF Owner Administrative Staff Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Poor guy. :( It sounds like he's had a very rough start to life and just the opposite of what a Doberman needs.

    They are intelligent dogs who need training and a job to do and you can turn that around with consistent training, letting him be near you and giving him a job. He's still really a baby so just start over like he is a young pup and use lots of time and patience.

    I agree that he's way too young to neuter since it will affect the growth and it won't be the answer to any of the things you're facing right now.
    I personally wouldn't keep him crated when they're there since he's already had a bad crate experience and you don't want him to associate your grandchildren with unpleasant things. I'm not saying crate training is a bad thing but he needs to be exposed to them too.
     
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  4. Tropicalbri's

    Tropicalbri's $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    What part of Fl are you located?

    I think you would be best served to find an animal behaviorist and a trainer that is experienced with this breed and have an evaluation done. They could direct you on the best way to approach the training because I truly believe if proper training is done along with gaining their trust through fair, firm and consistent training and interaction through play he will make a turnaround. Creating and muzzling him seems to be a continued treatment of what he has experienced before and may be counterproductive to establishing trust. Trust is not there yet for either you or him.

    I understand the concern for the kids as that could be a problem unless his issues are evaluated and worked on.

    I would not neuter him until 18-24mo of age. Neutering does not correct negative behavior and could exacerbate it.
    He lacks confidence, is in his teenage phase and really needs some mental and physical activity. I would keep a traffic tab on his collar so you can get control if necessary, also use treats to get him to sit. You may have to walk into him with the treat while giving the sit command so that the treat is above him and would require sitting to receive it. Then praise a lot when he does it.
     
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  5. Wolvesnsheep

    Wolvesnsheep New Member

    Yes, I was told he needs neutered to calm him
     
  6. Wolvesnsheep

    Wolvesnsheep New Member

    I have had him since last Friday, I can see a world of difference/improvement in his walking, tho still quite a stretch away still. He is up my butt lol, has to sit on or almost on me, follows me everywhere. Never more than 2-3 feet away. This was all over Doritos if you can believe that. He wanted some I said no and he just kept getting more and more aggressive, he scared me pretty bad. I think he bit that man and that’s why they rehomed him. I just am not sure what to do, never had a dog do this
     
  7. Viemarangelrock

    Viemarangelrock Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Again, neutering will not correct problem or aggressive behaviour. The vast majority of aggressive behaviour in dogs is related to anxiety, stress, or frustration. Early neutering can produce an even greater negative effect on behaviours.
    He’s 10 months old, he’s young and vibrant. Castration doesn’t ‘calm’ an excitable dog.
     
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  8. Tropicalbri's

    Tropicalbri's $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    He is in his Doberteens so that is added crazy behavior. When my twins went through this stage it was C R A Z Y!!!
    They challenged me at every turn.
    They can smell the hormones that fear produces so I would take several deep long breaths in through the nose and out through the mouth to just calm yourself. I do this in front of my twins and it’s weird but they will automatically calm when I deep breathe. Then I will leash up one and take them out for some training and a walk. Then come back and do the same with the other one. They know when you are calm and will respond more positively as long as you remain calm. If I get frustrated when working with them I will stop the training with something they easily know how to do when given the command, then I will put them up until I calm down.

    This breed is very intuitive of our emotions so being calm, firm and consistent works best.
     
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  9. Tropicalbri's

    Tropicalbri's $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Also I would strongly urge you to hold off on neutering until you get his behavior resolved and some training in. Insecurity creates the growling and snarling behavior. He lacks confidence and before you neuter him please help him build his confidence.
    Too many vets push spay and neuter at a young age and it just causes temperament and health issues later in life. Give him a chance to get full use of the hormones to grow properly and healthy.
     
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  10. Viemarangelrock

    Viemarangelrock Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Unruly, over-excitable adolescent behaviour.....Training and appropriate mental and physical stimulation.
     
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  11. Doberman Gang

    Doberman Gang Hot Topics Subscriber

    That won’t change him. He needs a firm leader and to be taught some manors. Unfortunately he may need to learn some hard lessons before he gets better. If he snaps his teeth and barks at you, that needs to be stopped. You are the leader and he will need to understand that. As for your grand kids he either needs to be introduced with you in control and them ignoring him. Hard to give advise without really seeing his reaction so you would be best off finding someone who can read dogs well. How close are you to Fort Meyers. I have a buddy down there right now that is excellent not sure if he has any time but I’d close would be worth looking into.
     
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  12. Wolvesnsheep

    Wolvesnsheep New Member

    Thank you! I will Not neuter until older. I’ve always heard it should be done ASAP. I have been scolded in past by busy body’s for not having my shepherds done until over a year. I have been working with him very much. This was all over him wanting Doritos and me saying no. Then he did it again because I wanted him off my lap, lol. Thank you all so very very much! Anymore advice on helping him along will be so very appreciative
     
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  13. Ddski5

    Ddski5 Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Have him since last Friday? So you do not know him and he does not truly know you let alone having bonded with you.

    Be a strong confident leader. Be clear and persistent with your expectations with no mixed signals.

    I believe with the above followed with time/experience to establish trust, bonding and security, major progress can happen.

    I know it took mine longer than I thought to trust and bond with me and mine didn’t come from an undesirable environment.

    Be diligent and careful around the kids, they have no idea the do’s and dont’s with how to act around him.
     
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  14. Viemarangelrock

    Viemarangelrock Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Compliance is mandatory at ALL TIMES regardless of how small or insignificant the cue. His compliance should not be negotiable or you will find that you end up with him blowing off cues when ever he chooses.
     
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  15. BamMoMoMommy

    BamMoMoMommy $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    That sounds like a daunting task...to find a behaviorist.......chances are a university near you that has a vet school program....has a behaviorist on staff and the school may even offer evaluations at low cost/no cost fees, since they need pets for the students to work with.

    Best of luck!!
     
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  16. Maja Rocks

    Maja Rocks $ Forum Donor $

    Wow there is a lot of issues to over come in your original post.

    I like to use the 1 dog year =10 human years analogy.
    So what you have here is the dog version of a 6 year old boy that has been forced to stay in his room 24/7 with no exercise, no mental stimulation or socialization. He has received no education, never been taught any manors or shown any love and was probably physical abused.
    Would we give up on the child ?
    NO! But we understand it will require a lot of work to heal the damage and get him past his traumas and back on track to have a happy and health life.

    Yes you can absolutely work thru this...
    He has obviously not had a good life and was abused.
    (Yes I my book keeping a Dobie in a crate 24/7 with no walks is abuse.)
    The fact that you think he bit the husband is another sign of abuse.
    Generally when a dog bites his owner its out of fear or is self defense.
    Dobes are intelligent and sensitive and do not take kindly to being abused and will only take abuse for so long.
    When they grow big enough to protect themselves they will.

    I have worked with several rescues with issues like this.
    The good news is I was able to get them all over their past traumas. And when did they were some of the most loyal affectionate dogs I have known.
    It's amazing what a little kindness and a lot of understanding along with establishing boundaries and proper relationship roles can accomplish.

    But its going to be a training balancing act ..
    Getting him past his abuse while putting a stop to his unacceptable & aggressive behavior.

    1st you need to establish trust ,build a bond and work to calm his fears.
    Start by just letting him play outside and enjoy himself in your yard if its fenced.
    It will help him not only physically but him mentally too.

    Grab a chair watch him play or read a book, surf the internet on your laptop or phone.
    The goal is to have him learn that being with you is a positive experience.
    Don't ask anything from him when you start.
    Just let him be a puppy and explore, play , enjoy being free and not stuck in a crate and share some "quality time" together. It doesn't have to be hours maybe 15-30 minuets several times a day.

    Next step is to let him come to you on his own.
    Eventually after the initial newness of the yard wears off he will get board / curious and will engage with you on some level.
    Maybe at 1st it's just to sniff you or he may lay down and rest in your general vicinity.
    It may be 10 or 20 feet away, but keep in mind he as the whole yard to lay down in and he is choosing to do so as close to you as he is comfortable with.
    When ever he engages with you make a pleasant experience. He has already had enough bad experiences with people. Speak to him softly and avoid any prolonged or intense eye contact that he might interpret as aggressive or a threat. Always be calm and kind as long as he is not being aggressive or threatening.

    Next introduce some playful interaction.
    He is a puppy after all and playing should be an enjoyable part of his life.
    Does he like to play fetch or have a favorite toy?
    Introduce some toys for him to enjoy. Most puppy's love playing with sticks, plastic bottles, cardboard boxes.
    Look on the puppy forums there are lots of home made & cheap puppy toys.

    As trust is gained and a bond develops it is time to start training.
    I would start with leash work at home in the yard and the basic sit ,down& stay
    Training will establish a relationship based upon working together with you leading and him following your lead.
    Getting positive feedback when he pleases you will give him confidence.


    On the other hand " when he gets mad, he snaps his jaws, shows his teeth and growls and barks at me"
    YIKES!!!!

    This is NOT OK ever!

    Is this a dominance thing? Is he doing this out of fear? Maybe a bit of both?
    You need to figure it out & understand what is fueling this behavior before you can address it.
    And address it you must! Or someone is going to get hurt and the dog will end up having to be destroyed.

    If he challenged his previous owner for dominance and believes he won thats a big problem.
    dominance.
    You are the Master /Alpha & pack leader... He is at the bottom of the pack hierarchy.
    He is dead last on the list. He is subordinate to all humans in your home INCLUDING children

    A 10 month old doberman dictator ruling the household by aggression and scaring the people he lives with is not going end well for the dog or the family.

    If its fear... thats not good either.
    Nothing is more unpredictable than a fear biter.

    I agree with everything JanS posted Love and training is the answer.
    He is only 10 months old he is damaged but not broken.

    If I lived close to you I would be happy to help you get your puppy trained and back on track.
    If you PM me I am happy to give you my phone # & help work out a training plan to overcome his issues.

    The good news is it is amazing how resilient puppies are when given love and leadership.
    You are to be commended you have taken on a big responsibility.
    Handel this right and you will be his saving angel and have a loving and loyal companion for the rest of his life.

    MR
     
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  17. Gelcoater

    Gelcoater Expert ThreadCrapper $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    Hey there!
    :dc:
    From California
    I’m another random Doberman owner shouting out not to neuter before 2 years old!!!
    I’m not sure how many anecdotal examples of something is required to no longer make it anecdotal, but I’m pretty positive we can produce a bunch.
    Leggy, tall boys. Many beyond breed standard in height or proportions.

    Your boy needs some guidance.
    If you can hook up with @Doberman Gang buddy in your area, it will be a mind blower and game changer for you and your boy.
    This dude knows some :dobe: stuff, and if he’s suggesting someone by name. That person knows their :dobe:stuff too. :thumbsup2:
     
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  18. Maja Rocks

    Maja Rocks $ Forum Donor $

    Well I missed this before I posted so disregard my previous advise.

    This is a completely different situation.
    I think I now have a better idea of what we are dealing with and it is a dominance issue.

    In short your 10 month old pup discovered that he is a Doberman and asserted his dominance & challenged his previous owners for the alpha role and he won. He scared the previous owners & they allowed him to take over the pack. The only way they probably could control him was by crating him. This is a completely different situation than a dog that has been abused is fearful and trying to protect itself.

    Quote "When he gets mad, he snaps his jaws, shows his teeth and growls and barks at me, and refuses to sit when told, he just stands there and stares at me, like not backing down. This is a text book example of canine dominance in a pack situation. All the way down to Alpha Wolf stare. Watch any video on wolf pack behavior.


    He thinks..No make that he knows he is now the alpha and now is basically a 10 month old Doberteen bully.
    All sweet and lovey when he gets what he wants and when he doesn't get what he wants he turns into a canine terrorist.
    This is a huge problem and will only get worse if he doesn't get put in his place pronto and for once and all.
    Every time he growls bares his teeth and snaps you and it works only reinforces that he the Alpha and this is how he rules his pack.

    So the question is are you comfortable and strong enough to put this 10 month old monster in his place?
    No shame in acknowledging that a 80 pound doberman staring you down, growling, bearing his teeth and snapping at you is a very intimidating even scary experience. That what he is counting on it being.

    I am a 250 pound 6'2" man with over 50 years experience with Dobermans and I am not ashamed to say that dealing with this type of problem is something I don't take lightly. The possibly of the dog standing their ground and biting me is real. On the other hand I can be pretty damn scary myself and the 2 times I had dogs challenge & threaten me didn't work out too good for them and they never made the mistake again.

    From my point of view you have 3 choices.

    A) Hire a professional to deal with this. ( with out question the best and safest way.)

    B) Re-home the dog to someone who understands exactly whats going on and knows how to correct this behavior.

    C) Get a E-collar and next he shows aggression towards you it's game on.
    Turn the tables on him . Trust me he thinks he has you right where he wants you. He is in no way expecting whats coming. This is the time for theatrics, make yourself as big, bad & scary as you can be! Growl ,bare your teeth & chase him down and make him submit to your authority as pack leader. Scare & Zap the living crap out of him and put him in his place. If done right it should be a one time only life lesson. Make sure it's an experience he never wishes to repeat. He needs to understand theres a new master in his life. You are now the alpha and you will not ever have your position in the pack challenged. He needs to know in no uncertain terms that challenging or threatening you or anyone in your pack is the biggest mistake he can make and you will kick his a** every single time if he so much as gives you a cross look.

    I know some folks will disagree with this method.
    I am a big believer in positive reinforcement when training.
    It's how I train 99% of the time.
    But threatening & dangerous behaviors have to recognized excatly for what they are and dealt with accordingly.

    Good luck and let us know how it's going.

    MR
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  19. Tropicalbri's

    Tropicalbri's $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Somehow I think using the e collar when he is in an enraged or aggressive mode is going to get you bit. If he does not understand commands then giving him a stim from an ecollar without understanding why will make him lash out at you. E collars should only be used when they already know commands you give them and they just blow you off. A quick nick from the collar once they understand the command will remind them they were told a command and they must comply.

    I did not start using an e collar until the training was done and they knew the commands. I am 107lbs about 5’9” and probably not physically intimidating to most but I have the inner strength that is a no nonsense.

    Find a trainer to help you and if you are near where @Doberman Gang friend is I would try to get that set up. If you are closer to Miami, Homestead, Keys I have a behaviorist that I can put you in contact with. He travels between Miami and Keys.

    Would love to hear from you about how it is going.
     
  20. Maja Rocks

    Maja Rocks $ Forum Donor $

    He is not angered or enraged....In fact he seems to be spoiled and happy as can be.
    The issue is when he doesn't get wants (Doritos) he bares his teeth ,growls and snaps and so far everybody is afraid to stand up to this 10 month old canine bully.
    If he is like this at 10 months ...What do you think he will be like at 3 years.

    MR
     
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