Common ancestry

JanS said:
Kimbertal has a bad reputation because they breed so many dogs, but they do find good bloodlines for their breeding program. I personally wouldn't buy one there, but having it in the pedigree isn't the worst thing.
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That's good to know. I did just get some information about Luna's dam and Kimbertal is in the mix.
 
Luna's dam is - The Darling Of London Derry. London's sire is [URL='http://www.apps.akc.org/store/reports/index.cfm?dog_id=WS39864001&defineditems=yes']Barnic's Hardcore High Octane Kyron RN[/URL][URL='http://www.apps.akc.org/store/reports/index.cfm?dog_id=WS39864001&defineditems=yes'] and her dam is [URL='http://www.apps.akc.org/store/reports/index.cfm?dog_id=WS23079703&defineditems=yes']Barnic Elisir Taboo Altobello RN.[/URL][/URL]

The Darling of London Derry:

Barnic's Hardcore High Octane Kyron RN
WS
Hell Black Novak
WS(Yugoslavia)
Fedor Del Nasi
Baron Nike Renewal
JR(Yugoslavia)
Akuna-Matata De Grande Vinko
JR
Quirina Black Novak
UKSBH Dark Dragon Black Novak
UKSBH
Enigma Energy Black Novak
UKSBH
Black Jewel Von Miller
WS3
OFA32G OFEL32 Chris Miratio
WS(Poland)
Gem'Givveeon Quinn Quinlan
LV
Selema Miratio
PKR II-80671
Nana Zita Di Altobello
WS(Yugoslavia)
OFA Icarus Di Altobello
JR
Beatrice Di Altobello
JR

Barnic Elisir Taboo Altobello RN
WS
Westwind's Ryl Capt Von Baron
WS
Westwind Kimber Von Capt Rex
WR
Westwin Sadies Beam-Me-Up Scoti
WP
AKC DNA #V148102
Kimbertals Capt Red Von Roxy
WP852572/07 05-00
Red & Rust
Westwinds Ryl Warlock Kassie
WR009627/07 08-03
Kimbertals Big Mellow Rylrio
WP844476/04 09-99
AKC DNA #V182583
Westwind Scoti's Warlock KC
WP841599/01 09-99
Black & Rust
Kimbertal's Keisha Von Druss
WS161752/04 12-07
Black & Rust Elisir Dax Di Altobello
WS (Yugoslavia)
Icaro Di Villa Castelli
ENCI DS
Nadja-Nikita Altobello
Phoebe IV
WP
 
@Prushanks I see several connections between Miesha and Luna. In addition to the connection to prolific stud Fedor del Nasi we also have Nikita for Eternity and Nadja Nikita Altobello in common. That's on Luna's sire's side. I need to look closer at the new info for Luna's dam. Did Miesha come from a breeder in Pennsylvania?

I'm finding it hard to keep track. I need to print these off when I get home to make it easier to look. lol
 
PandoraB said:
Wow - Fedor did really get around didn't he?? lol

There seems to be lots of Altobello in Luna's and Miehsa's pedigrees and some of the others as well. @Prushanks I see you have Kimbertal as well. I believe that Luna does too on her dam's side although I haven't seem the dam's pedigree yet so I can't confirm. During my research I came across some nasty comments about Kimbertal on another forum which seems to have lots of negative comments about lots of breeders - in fact a number of threads seemed to be flame wars - very negative vibe! I'm not sure I put any stock in that kind of commentary.
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Big Pimpin' Fedor! Though, as @Dobie Wan Knobie said, the DCM history, maybe he shouldn't have been? Oh well, Que Sera!!

Exactly why i thank goodness i found this place and all you wonderful people!! I read all those horrible fights, newbie shaming and breeder bashing and it broke my heart. Dont get me wrong, i am very against irresponsible "breeders", puppymills and the like. I think the key is educating oneself and visiting the possibliltes when one is to become perspective owner of any animal.
PandoraB said:
@Prushanks I see several connections between Miesha and Luna. In addition to the connection to prolific stud Fedor del Nasi we also have Nikita for Eternity and Nadja Nikita Altobello in common. That's on Luna's sire's side. I need to look closer at the new info for Luna's dam. Did Miesha come from a breeder in Pennsylvania?

I'm finding it hard to keep track. I need to print these off when I get home to make it easier to look. lol
Click to expand...
Me too... ive been using the online pedigree database listing for her full older brother Perseus until hers comes. I got Miesha from a breeder here in NY.. but her dogs all have a lot of those names in there! Really beautiful animals!
 
Prushanks said:
Big Pimpin' Fedor! Though, as @Dobie Wan Knobie said, the DCM history, maybe he shouldn't have been? Oh well, Que Sera!!

Exactly why i thank goodness i found this place and all you wonderful people!! I read all those horrible fights, newbie shaming and breeder bashing and it broke my heart. Dont get me wrong, i am very against irresponsible "breeders", puppymills and the like. I think the key is educating oneself and visiting the possibliltes when one is to become perspective owner of any animal.

Me too... ive been using the online pedigree database listing for her full older brother Perseus until hers comes. I got Miesha from a breeder here in NY.. but her dogs all have a lot of those names in there! Really beautiful animals!
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Well, there has been a lot of pimping going on, and for a while now, and a majority of it is from so-called reputable breeders, but what's done is done, and dwelling on it will not help matters; now we must find a way to move forward and away from what has been done. Yes, we can, and should, learn from what has been done in the past, but it doesn't do us any good to bash one another, all that does is cause more separation and division than we already have now.

Part of the problem is the different reasons breeders have for breeding in the first place. Much of it is very self centered, and/or for selfish reasons. I have a thread on here that states that 67% of Dobermans have DCM. This may not be perfectly correct, but it is close - it all just depends on who you ask. But the bottom line is that a majority of Doberman lines - on both sides of the pond - have this issue, and have to deal with it in some fashion.

I could go on about this issue, that no one wants to talk about, as I have been reading all I can for about two years now. It is here - we need to deal with it - and we will need to work together to do so. If we continue on the current path, the status quo, then that number will continue to rise. Science alone will not solve this issue!
 
Dobie Wan Knobie said:
Well, there has been a lot of pimping going on, and for a while now, and a majority of it is from so-called reputable breeders, but what's done is done, and dwelling on it will not help matters; now we must find a way to move forward and away from what has been done. Yes, we can, and should, learn from what has been done in the past, but it doesn't do us any good to bash one another, all that does is cause more separation and division than we already have now.

Part of the problem is the different reasons breeders have for breeding in the first place. Much of it is very self centered, and/or for selfish reasons. I have a thread on here that states that 67% of Dobermans have DCM. This may not be perfectly correct, but it is close - it all just depends on who you ask. But the bottom line is that a majority of Doberman lines - on both sides of the pond - have this issue, and have to deal with it in some fashion.

I could go on about this issue, that no one wants to talk about, as I have been reading all I can for about two years now. It is here - we need to deal with it - and we will need to work together to do so. If we continue on the current path, the status quo, then that number will continue to rise. Science alone will not solve this issue!
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Absolutely!! Beautifully spoken!! :thumbsup2::agreed:
 
I did some internet research on Fedor last night and the only thing that was clear was that Fedor's legacy and also DCM generally and with respect to Fedor in particular are controversial. I read one very heated debate with both sides relying on Fedor statistics - one listing numerous progeny by name who have lived to be 12 or 13. There are lots of Fedor supporters out there it appears.

It's so sad to think of young dogs dying so early because of irresponsible breeding. I guess there are breeders that can't see beyond the all mighty buck and short term gain.

I'm so glad when I was looking for a forum to join I joined this one and not the other one where I have seen thread after thread filled with insults, drama, and condescending crap. Some of the comments actually amount to defamation against named breeders perhaps because posters think they are protected by the anonymity of an internet (which isn't necessarily true). Life's too short for that kind of stuff.
 
PandoraB said:
I did some internet research on Fedor last night and the only thing that was clear was that Fedor's legacy and also DCM generally and with respect to Fedor in particular are controversial. I read one very heated debate with both sides relying on Fedor statistics - one listing numerous progeny by name who have lived to be 12 or 13. There are lots of Fedor supporters out there it appears.

It's so sad to think of young dogs dying so early because of irresponsible breeding. I guess there are breeders that can't see beyond the all mighty buck and short term gain.

I'm so glad when I was looking for a forum to join I joined this one and not the other one where I have seen thread after thread filled with insults, drama, and condescending crap. Some of the comments actually amount to defamation against named breeders perhaps because posters think they are protected by the anonymity of an internet (which isn't necessarily true). Life's too short for that kind of stuff.
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Great post! There are supporters and haters on both sides of the fence, for many lines, the absolute truth of which seems to be a matter of opinion. DCM shows up in many lines, and in many cases is somewhat unpredictable when, how and to whom it will manifest itself. Genetics is very difficult to master, as the unexpected can, and will, happen. But, that is not to say, there are things that we can do to breed towards improvement in this area of health.
 
Drogon said:
I read that one too. I just wish Fedor's owner would make public the cause of death so we're not all just guessing.
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Me too. I wonder why the breeder won't disclose the cause of death? Is a necropsy routine for a dog at that level? Fedor was 9 when he died as I recall. If the breed average is 10, 9 doesn't seem that young?
 
PandoraB said:
Me too. I wonder why the breeder won't disclose the cause of death? Is a necropsy routine for a dog at that level? Fedor was 9 when he died as I recall. If the breed average is 10, 9 doesn't seem that young?
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I don't know about necropsy. 9 does seem young but I'm no expert. I don't want to speculate why they won't disclose cause of death although I do have my own theory.
 
We had to put our last Dobe to sleep at 9 because he was suffering from kidney failure. As it turned out the mature adult dog food we were feeding him was causing this issue in many dogs, so we think this turned out to be a big part of the problem. Diet and nutrition play a big part in canine health. I am a lot more informed now than I was with Caesar, but that info was not as available then like it is now. There are other heart disease issues as well, we just know more now than in previous years. DNA testing is relatively new for the majority of breeders.
 
PandoraB said:
Me too. I wonder why the breeder won't disclose the cause of death? Is a necropsy routine for a dog at that level? Fedor was 9 when he died as I recall. If the breed average is 10, 9 doesn't seem that young?
Click to expand...

A dog with that much of an influence and importance...I firmly believe they should have a necropsy done and release the results. If not for the good of the future of the breed but for the comfort of those that love and own his offspring. Could you imagine feeling left in the dark by your breeder? It is much bigger than your own ego or wanting to keep the death of your dog private if the cause of death affects so many others like Fedor's did.
 
Such an interesting thread! I will have to think about whether I should reveal some of Oji's ancestry. I've used this forum to vent so much about Oji's shortcomings. I don't recognize many of the names in these Euro lines, but I wonder if Oji is from Euro lines that are more dedicated working lines. You can tell I don't spend much time geeing out on it. I pulled the trigger on him, and now he's mine.
 
Rits said:
A dog with that much of an influence and importance...I firmly believe they should have a necropsy done and release the results. If not for the good of the future of the breed but for the comfort of those that love and own his offspring. Could you imagine feeling left in the dark by your breeder? It is much bigger than your own ego or wanting to keep the death of your dog private if the cause of death affects so many others like Fedor's did.
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IMHO, a necropsy and releasing the cause of death should be mandatory on all dogs used for breeding. When you breed dogs, everything about them should be public. The care of the dogs, where and how they live and are cared for, health testing.....everything, including a verified cause of death.
I, not unlike anybody else on this forum, have a lot invested in my dogs and always will. The time, the training and all the work I have done to open doors for therapy work for dobermans, not an easy thing to do, btw.
I am currently researching for my next dog and I think it is important to know why the dogs from any given breeder died. A pattern may develop that may steer me away from certain lines.
When you think about it, any stud dog could sire 30 puppies easily. While health test can give us some information, it's only that the dog was healthy when the test were done, especially when it comes to the heart.
I for one, want and feel entitled to as much information as I can get to make the best decision possible.
 
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