Anduin the bully

[Lucian]

Is it normal for a male puppy to push around another dog much older?

When Anduin came home to live with us he was 6-7 weeks old.
Already here at our house was our cat Tirion and our min pin Nahla.
Nahla is 9 years old.

At first she didn't want anything to do with the puppy, and all the puppy wanted to do was get close and snuggle with her. I would not force the issue and allow him to be close if she didn't want it because most of the time she would growl and show her teeth and I didn't want him to get bit.

She has since warmed up to him and at times they will even lay and sleep in the same round little dog bed that we have. So I'm thinking.. yay, that part of the whole "oh your going to live here too" phase is over.

When Anduin started to grow and get bigger I noticed that he was starting to push her around. He would take his body and turn sideways into her and push her. She would stop and growl. He then acted like he wanted to play and would do the head down butt in the air move. She tries to walk away and he is right on her butt getting in front of her pushing himself into her sideways again.

I intervene. Tell him to stop. Tell her to stop. Usually it stops.

This problem has gotten worse. Now, not only is he pushing himself into her but he is blocking her way if she tries to walk by... and the barking.. oh my god! He barks non stop at her and she barks non stop back at him. If she tries to walk by and manages to squeeze on through he is right on her butt barking and nudging her.

I have watched them many times and she doesn't do anything to instigate and bring his actions on.

It has gotten to the point where if my family sits down in the living room to watch a movie together and she enters the room he goes flying off the couch and we have to pause what we are watching until we can get him to calm down because with all the barking and commotion you cant hear the tv over them.

When he comes at her like this she stops moving and has now started going after him with all teeth. He runs away but as soon as she turns around to continue on to where she was going he is right back louder than ever.

What is really making it hard on me is Nahla is starting to get a bit of arthritis and some days are worse than others for her. I have to take them outside separately now because he runs into her at times so hard that she gets knocked over and I know that is making her sore.

I have tried "no"
I have tried holding him down waiting for him to be calm.
I have tried keeping him by his collar.
I have tried making him sit.
I have tried getting in between the two.. now he just runs around me to get to her.
Nothing seems to be working.

Is this normal behavior? Play behavior? Dominant behavior? Is this a stage that he will grow out of?
Are there some things that I can try to do other than what I have tried already?

 

[Drogon]

I don't have direct experience with 2 dogs at home. Drogon has always been a dominate dog. When he was younger and smaller I used to take him to the dog park and all he wanted to do was dominate every other dog. As he grew older and bigger he finally started to ignore the smaller dogs but still wanted to dominate dogs of his size or larger. I don't take him to the dog park any more but I have a friend with 2 Great Danes and he constantly wants to dominate them.
By dominate I mean grab them by the back of their neck and hold them to the ground. He's not wanting to hurt them because he never bites but he does want to establish he is the alpha dog.

@AresMyDobie can probably give you better advice for home as she has multiple dogs including a small one

 

[Lucian]

I wonder if Anduin would make the connection that this behavior is not acceptable if I was to pin him down to show that I am the dominate one and I said "NO" when he does this to her. I don't even know if that is something that you can do to a dog lol I'm just running with different thoughts here. When I hold him down I have not literally held him down to the ground I just hold on to his whole body.

 

[Drogon]

I wonder if Anduin would make the connection that this behavior is not acceptable if I was to pin him down to show that I am the dominate one and I said "NO" when he does this to her. I don't even know if that is something that you can do to a dog lol I'm just running with different thoughts here. When I hold him down I have not literally held him down to the ground I just hold on to his whole body.

That is something you can do to a dog. I've done it in the past with some of my other dogs just to establish who is Alpha. I never have with Drogon because he's a Schutzhund dog and I didn't want him to feel like every human is an Alpha to him. If you just want a pet then it might work. However they usually still establish pack order within the pack so just because he knows you are Alpha, he still may want to dominate so 'the pack' knows he's #2, second only to you.

 

[Gelcoater]

I wonder if Anduin would make the connection that this behavior is not acceptable if I was to pin him down to show that I am the dominate one and I said "NO" when he does this to her. I don't even know if that is something that you can do to a dog lol I'm just running with different thoughts here. When I hold him down I have not literally held him down to the ground I just hold on to his whole body.

I don't think you need to go to that extent.
He is testing you though, and the other dog too.
How old is he again?
You need to start with the no.
No means no, no matter what they're doing.
For pestering the other dog, start with the no then redirect. If he's ball motivated, food motivated, distracted by the sound of a squeaky toy, whatever. Use it as the tool to break the concentration of instigating play with the other dog.
One thing you mentioned is you've had him since he was 6-7 weeks.
It's too young to remove a pup from the litter.
Not saying it to be critical or mean, but you need to understand what you could be dealing with.
Pulled that age they don't gain the valuable social skills and interaction they get at the 9-11 week age.
I happen to have one too, and I recognize a similarity between them on this.
It will take some work but fortunately he's still young and impressionable so with positive experiences comes positive attitude.

Some learn it the easy way and some learn it a harder way that their over the top behavior isn't tolerated by some dogs and no dog should have to.

My boy Rocky, he's one of the latter group.



Notice you can see a couple of tooth marks in the inside of the ear.

Your consistency is going to be important (read everything) in countering his persistence. Once you prove you will respond, at once for failure to follow through with a call, be it no, come, whatever, it will rarely be challenged again.

 

[Lucian]

He is 4 month old now. I understand @Gelcoater that you aren't trying to be mean or critical. I did not know that he was too young to leave his litter mates or his Momma at such an age. We drove all the way to Kentucky from Michigan to pick him up. It wasn't until we got back home that I started reading about the ages that they are ready to leave and go to their new homes.

I will do the different things that you mentioned and start trying to redirect him with different things.

 

[Tropicalbri's]

He is sorely lacking in social skills and you are reacting to his behavior.
Learn to read his body language and the situation and act before it escalates to him going for your other dog. He is a puppy and wants to play, his size and Nahla's size is not something he recognizes. If you are holding him back by the collar or body, it is only causing more frustration for him and will escalate the situation.
Is he in any type of training program? If not he needs to be. It sounds like he has unlimited access to the house and that should change immediately. He must understand through training it is your house and he is a third class citizen and he has to earn privileges not just freely have them. Is he crate trained? If not I would start crating him. Take him outside on a leash and keep him on a leash attached to you in the house so he doesn't get the opportunity to run after Nahla. Watch his body language and give a correction when he starts to look at Nahla before he becomes amped up and redirect his attention. It's a lot of training and consistent work on your part but you will be able to get a handle on it if you are dedicated to making it happen.
Make him earn/work for everything including his food. Practice NILIF (nothing in life is free).
I have a senior Beagle that my pups trample on, on occasion but she is usually the one that instigates the play. Both pups do the barking, bowing, flea biting with Maddie and I have to intervene. My pups now know when I say leave it, I mean it and they will cease the behavior. Again he is a puppy and needs to learn the rules.

 

[AresMyDobie]

To me this sounds like playful behavior, you did get him at a very young age. When my boy would do this type of stuff to my chi mix I would redirect him to do something else, flirt pole, fetch, something to wear his little butt out and also not to stress Deegan out. When i noticed Deegan starting to get stressed I would make sure to do something with Ares. This made it so both did not escalate in a behavior. Ares learned through training to respect his little buddy. I never pinned Ares, Deegan also learned that you will not bare your teeth or get snappy with the puppy. Once they learned their places and how to respect each other they became the best of friends, they have a really cute bond. You have to remember you're in charge, the puppy is not starting things to be a jerk, he's a pup and doesn't know better, that being said the older smaller dog also needs to learn how to act a well cuz eventually your Doberman can cause some real damage if he gets fed up being snapped at.
Here they are last night. This is a nightly thing. My 90 something pound Doberman and my 8 pound chi mix cuddling

 

[LifeofRubie]

We experience something similar when Stella comes to visit (6 year old Bulldog my boyfriend shares with his ex). Rubie, 1 year old, just wants to play play PLAY and Stella is getting on in her years, especially for a Bulldog, and USUALLY doesn't want any part of it (she will occasionally play along). Rubie has learned that Stella has all this delicious neck skin that she can attack without hurting Stella. Stella has learned that if she makes a big enough noise, regardless of what the puppy is doing, my boyfriend will come running in and tell Rubie "NO." I think Stella making noise and my boyfriend getting worked up just feeds Rubie's desire to be a playful psycho and it escalates quickly. Unfortunately, Stella, being an awkward sack of potatoes, doesn't really have anything to defend herself with (teeth, speed, etc.) so I don't think Rubie gets the hint. That being said, when Rubie isn't being a jerk face, they get along very nicely! Best of luck and keep being consistent. Rubie is showing signs of improvement but we only see Stella one week a month so it's like a special treat for Rubie to have a pooch to taunt and puts large gaps in her training.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Oh my, do I know about that silly, annoying push-the-side-of-his-body-into-you behavior. Oji is real big on that. It is accompanied by getting hyper and mouthy and biting back toward his target.

He has not really done it with me – the Alpha in the pack. But to my wife yes, and to my daughter even more. We do not allow it, so as you can figure we've had to correct him a lot.

 

[My2Girls]

I'm seeing this with Shadow and Princess. When I say enough Princess stops but Shadow is still a bit clueless. My question is what type of correction do you use? Shadow is going to be 6 months at the end of the month. ( I've done the basic puppy & socialization class and we pick up obedience 1 after the holidays).

 

[Lucian]

I just tested out the distraction thing several times.
First time I went into the living room and Anduin my shadow followed along, not soon after Nahla came into the room. As soon as he got up I got up and told him no to leave her alone and distracted him with his squeaky bear, this worked perfectly.
I waited a bit and then went into my bedroom and did the same thing with the same results.
I also tried directing his attention with a treat, same scenarios same results. Each time she came into the room and he left her alone even though I was keeping his attention I praised him for being a good boy.

They can be in the same room together just fine, it only happens if he and I are in a room and she enters it and its only upon her entering the room. She also only shows her teeth to him once he has been pushing her around, as if to say back off I don't like that. They eat next to each other, sleep next to each other sometimes and they even give each other kisses. I just had a hard time understanding his behavior, why he would only do this when she comes into a room.

He has been around many other dogs and has not shown me this side of him. He also listens to me very well. When I say get down he will get down. When I say come here he will come to me, sit he sits and no usually means no its just in these instances it seems that to him I no longer exist.

Another thing that I think might escalate the problem is that when I am trying to get him to stop I am feeling just as hyped up as he looks. When I felt less anxious because I was redirecting him I was more calm and maybe he can pick up on that too.

He is a really smart boy and learns pretty quick so I am hoping that it wont take him long to pick up on this. I just didn't know in what ways I should go about correcting it.

@Tropicalbri's I don't have him in a training program yet because we are down to one vehicle but as soon as I get my car back I am planning on taking him to training.

 

[AresMyDobie]

I just tested out the distraction thing several times.
First time I went into the living room and Anduin my shadow followed along, not soon after Nahla came into the room. As soon as he got up I got up and told him no to leave her alone and distracted him with his squeaky bear, this worked perfectly.
I waited a bit and then went into my bedroom and did the same thing with the same results.
I also tried directing his attention with a treat, same scenarios same results. Each time she came into the room and he left her alone even though I was keeping his attention I praised him for being a good boy.

They can be in the same room together just fine, it only happens if he and I are in a room and she enters it and its only upon her entering the room. She also only shows her teeth to him once he has been pushing her around, as if to say back off I don't like that. They eat next to each other, sleep next to each other sometimes and they even give each other kisses. I just had a hard time understanding his behavior, why he would only do this when she comes into a room.

He has been around many other dogs and has not shown me this side of him. He also listens to me very well. When I say get down he will get down. When I say come here he will come to me, sit he sits and no usually means no its just in these instances it seems that to him I no longer exist.

Another thing that I think might escalate the problem is that when I am trying to get him to stop I am feeling just as hyped up as he looks. When I felt less anxious because I was redirecting him I was more calm and maybe he can pick up on that too.

He is a really smart boy and learns pretty quick so I am hoping that it wont take him long to pick up on this. I just didn't know in what ways I should go about correcting it.

@Tropicalbri's I don't have him in a training program yet because we are down to one vehicle but as soon as I get my car back I am planning on taking him to training.

Oh yes they can def pick up on your energy
Sounds like you're doing it right. Like I said I never let Deegan get pushed to the point of baring teeth, if I could help it. Once I saw Ares has started to push his limit then I redirected Ares and it just made it more pleasant for Deegan to know he doesn't have to do anything, I'll take care of it.
I dunno I hope that helps.
As for her coming into the room, he's probably just excited to see her cuz she's his pack member.
Ares gets happy when his little buddy walks in the room. He gets all wiggly and goes to greet him, usually with a few nose pokes and kisses lol so your boy is probably just excited to see her and doesn't understand that not everybody wants to play with him lol

 

[Tropicalbri's]

Another thing that I think might escalate the problem is that when I am trying to get him to stop I am feeling just as hyped up as he looks. When I felt less anxious because I was redirecting him I was more calm and maybe he can pick up on that too.

I am a very hyper person, always moving and it is extremely difficult for me to just plain be calm, so I understand what you mean. My pups pick up on it too and I have to do several deep breaths to calm myself and I can visibly see them relax when I do deep breathing. It's hard and I have to force myself to relax before I work with them. Now I have gotten in the habit of deep breathing before I handle them so that we all are calm.
Trust me it's a work in progress!! Lol

 

[WiglWerm]

Sounds like he wants to play...

 

[Doberman Gang]

They like to play rough and be dominant. We have 3 dobermans and 2 Malinois. Some dogs just can't be out together. Your puppy just wants to play. Does the older dog have a kennel he can go in to get peace or you can put the puppy in its kennel for a few minutes to calm down. You control what is allowed and set the rules of play.

 

[bomary]

They like to play rough and be dominant. We have 3 dobermans and 2 Malinois. Some dogs just can't be out together. Your puppy just wants to play. Does the older dog have a kennel he can go in to get peace or you can put the puppy in its kennel for a few minutes to calm down. You control what is allowed and set the rules of play.

Off to look at your media!!!...I did NOT know that you had that big/diverse crew!! That's awesome!

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I just tested out the distraction thing several times.
First time I went into the living room and Anduin my shadow followed along, not soon after Nahla came into the room. As soon as he got up I got up and told him no to leave her alone and distracted him with his squeaky bear, this worked perfectly.
I waited a bit and then went into my bedroom and did the same thing with the same results.
I also tried directing his attention with a treat, same scenarios same results. Each time she came into the room and he left her alone even though I was keeping his attention I praised him for being a good boy.

They can be in the same room together just fine, it only happens if he and I are in a room and she enters it and its only upon her entering the room. She also only shows her teeth to him once he has been pushing her around, as if to say back off I don't like that. They eat next to each other, sleep next to each other sometimes and they even give each other kisses. I just had a hard time understanding his behavior, why he would only do this when she comes into a room.

He has been around many other dogs and has not shown me this side of him. He also listens to me very well. When I say get down he will get down. When I say come here he will come to me, sit he sits and no usually means no its just in these instances it seems that to him I no longer exist.

Another thing that I think might escalate the problem is that when I am trying to get him to stop I am feeling just as hyped up as he looks. When I felt less anxious because I was redirecting him I was more calm and maybe he can pick up on that too.

He is a really smart boy and learns pretty quick so I am hoping that it wont take him long to pick up on this. I just didn't know in what ways I should go about correcting it.

@Tropicalbri's I don't have him in a training program yet because we are down to one vehicle but as soon as I get my car back I am planning on taking him to training.

I just now took the time to read this post completely.

First: A training program does not need to mean you take your dog somewhere and pay someone to help you train them. I love to do my own training.

Second: I am struck by the fact you say it only happens when another family member enters the room. This brought back memories of my previous Doberman who had a major problem in that he would sometimes charge, aggressively, my wife when she would enter a room that he and I were sharing.

We are talking barking, growling and snapping at her. He never, thank God, actually bit her, but if she had not reflexively drawn back, he may have. He would keep up his aggression until I (like a second or two later) would jump up and in an extremely firm way, call him down for it. It's on these few occasions, that (it to a certain extent breaks my heart a little) would grab ahold of his 90 lbs. of extremely strong muscle, knock his legs out from under him and pin him on his back with me mounted upon him, with hands strangling him and yelling at him. I must tell you that it did not make one ounce of difference that I did this. His problem persisted. It was just like a screw loose in his head. I regret the whole situation, but it does not get much more serious than my Doberman attacking a human family member.

I consulted a professional trainer and her advice was "never let your dominant dog get between you and another person." Advice which, of course, is untenable.

I doubt my past situation is the same as yours, but it just sounded eerily similar.