AJ earned his CDX

[Rits]

I use a chin tap and "NO!" when they look like they're about to drop it.

Thanks but this makes her drop when moving even more as she decides its not fun to be corrected so she refuses to move and hold. In the stand still, I do put my finger under her chin and say "hold" if I see mouth movement and reward for stillness and duration. I pet her while she holds and praise. Its getting her to move with it that seems impossible. If I correct her when it looks like she will drop while moving she spits it out faster or stops moving all together lol.

@Ravenbird nothing super formal yet. I was training it for fun when I was doing trick titles. Funny enough, she would carry a basket around, self taught of course. I guess maybe I need to go back and start with play, letting her think it is all her idea to begin with. But then she goes to chewing and flipping the object in the air

 

[obbanner]

Glad to know I'm not alone! You are doing shaped w/click & food? PVC or Dumbbell?


Using shaped hold is totally force-free with no commands or negative markers. You know I'm not a Pure Positive trainer & am more willing to correct than most, but I watched both video series (Shaped and Forced) on Dave Kroyer and it looked like the shaped version would work best with her personality. Fooled again, LOL. I'm about a month into it and trying to stick with the program as it's written. Mixing commands will negate the whole thing, as it's basically just a tradeoff that they do X and get reward, then just keep adding duration and distance. I'll get a video pretty soon of where we are on this. Thanks for the input!

I use NO! as a marker to stop doing whatever they're doing, whether in training or getting into trouble in the house. Unfortunately, there's too many people who imagine I'm beating my dog with a rolled up newspaper. Dogs are willing to please and if they're told that doesn't please me, it stops them from doing it. Over the past few years, I've started saying "Hey!" more because the dogs know it means the same thing and the Ignorati don't realize I'm giving the dog a correction. I found that it's very useful during initially training an exercise and rarely used once they know it.

 

[Ravenbird]

I guess maybe I need to go back and start with play, letting her think it is all her idea to begin with. But then she goes to chewing and flipping the object in the air

Asha & Ripley DO have some certain things in common!!!

I use NO! as a marker to stop doing whatever they're doing, whether in training or getting into trouble in the house.

Oh I do too. All day long it seems! I have used it a few times in this hold series, when it just automatically came out of my mouth! LOL. I may just have to go to a forced hold. What bugs me more than anything, is that Asha is always game to do anything new, very enthusiastic, loves her food like nobody's business, and will do backflips for a ball reward. This holding though, she will do a few reps then start staring off in the distance like "Is there anything else we could do?". I mean really avoid the task at hand by looking away. Then she'll do a few reps, rinse & repeat. I've started using a ball for the reward and got her enthused, but then she'd still drop it if it involved moving one step with it in her mouth. I can move to any other exercises - we're working on sit & down in motion - and she's 110% instantly, so it's not the day, her mood, the weather or any other excuse, she just hates this holding. Like @Rits said, I can't risk making it too fun at the risk of shaking, tossing or wanting to tug with it. I'll make a short video, I need a video to ask Dave his opinion anyway, since it's his program. He shows both ways, Shaped & Forced, but says he does almost entirely Shaped now, and said it's the same whether IGP or AKC retrieve.

 

[obbanner]

@Ravenbird @Rits

I should have said this in my previous post. A substantial value to the correction word, “No!” or “Hey!” is that it breaks the dog out of his current mindset. Dogs want to please, and it makes them realize they’re not pleasing.

For example, you’re teaching DOWN. You’re heeling along, you and the dog stop and he sits in HEEL. In his mind, he’d doing what you want. You’ve been telling him to sit when you stop for weeks or months, and he did it. So he’s content and happy with himself. Now you tell him to DOWN. He knows he just did what you wanted, so does nothing.

You can cajole and wheedle, “Dooowwnnn. Dowwwwn. Come on, dooownnn.” The dog hears “Good boy.” There's also the risk that the dog associated DOWN with sitting.

Or you can inform the dog that the situation is now different with a correction word that snaps him out of that mindset and makes him receptive to the new command.

I don’t even have to scream “NO!” and usually do it in a conversational tone. When I say it, I can see the dog reset himself mentally and then think about what am I telling him to do.

In the ring, the judge begins every exercise with, “Are you ready?” When I say “READY!”, it’s not to inform the judge that I’m ready because I can take it back until the judge gives me the instruction that starts the exercise. Instead, it’s to inform the dog we’re now getting serious, so pay attention.

The Positive Motivation people don’t realize the value of the correction command, in my opinion.

I remembered when I was teaching Sabrina basic herding. At that time, Sabrina had her CD and was used to working with me. The Away command means counter clockwise around the flock and Come By means clockwise around the flock. I told her AWAY and she started running around the flock. I told her COMEBY and she kept doing Away. I told her "NO, COMEBY!", she reset herself and started doing what I asked. My teacher is a Positive Motivation extremist and yelled at me for punishing the dog. There was no way I could explain to her why I said, "NO".

Update - I was thinking about READY and the dog paying attention. I just realized that when I do attention exercises, I should say READY instead of LOOK because I'm using two different words to do the same thing.

 

[Ravenbird]

The Positive Motivation people don’t realize the value of the correction command, in my opinion.

Don't mistake me for pure positive, I'm just going along with one exercise! It's working, it's just super duper slow. We took a couple days off training the hold and today she was pretty spiffy using a ball reward. I'd started with food as usual, then she got that bored "do I have to" look, so I brought out the ball and she's back to her old eager self. I got a couple of steps forward to a front without dropping it! Yay! Got some video but have to wait for the wee hours to upload to Youtube for you. @Rits, if it does continue to work, it's upping the reward and refusing to compromise. Drop it? No ball. Come front without dropping it? You got it, big party! I have taught a pretty good cap on extremely attractive "bait", like the ball. When I first started using this really high reward she'd spin out of control, but we're pretty good with it now, she knows she has to Do The Thing (whatever it might be) to get it. This self control on Ashas part has sped me through a LOT of exercises. It was too much with the hold for a while so I went back to food only, but today I tried the ball and she was really really good.

@obbanner, I'm not dismissing your training at all, I like to stay open to all ideas and all methods all the time. If something doesn't work, I move on, and I'm borderline moving on from the Shaped hold is why I asked what you did. I thank you for your input! It's really good to have several methods in the toolbox as every dog responds differently! You've definitely done a great job with your pack!

 

[obbanner]

Don't mistake me for pure positive, I'm just going along with one exercise!

It's really good to have several methods in the toolbox as every dog responds differently! You've definitely done a great job with your pack!

I didn't mean to give the impression I thought you were pure positive. I read your post where you said such. I wanted to share why I think pure positive doesn't always work and that it ignores a meaningful part of training and handling. Every dog is different, but also every handler is different. We each have our personality traits that blend into our training. I congratulate your open mind so you can see what works and what doesn't. That's actually my favorite part of dog training, searching for a method that works with a particular dog. I have several happy memories of seeing the light bulb go on in the dog's head when he realized what to do.

 

[Ravenbird]

It's all good, @obbanner! I didn't want to be seen as a yes-butter:

"How do you do that"
"Well, do this, then that, and it all comes together"
"Yes, but I don't / can't / won't do it because..."

LOL, I hate a Yes-butter, and I surely didn't want to be seen as asking you then brushing you off. If what I'm doing doesn't pan out, I want back up ideas!

Thanks for being such a good sport!