Anyone heard of or try "Pet Gentle"

[BGpa]

So, having played some catchup on BYB Bonnie, in terms of training, understanding the breed, get better myself as an owner for next big dog...functional home and personal guardian that can accompany older folks on camping, trails, beaches, get along with others when well trained as pet companion...

I've done a ton of reading in breed, inc a couple others (BW loves GSDs, we've had two rescues and if we go that way it has to be done better- ideally a puppy, we can bring up to max potential)
So I've haunted webforums, reddit, asked noob questions, and now

I'm watching a lot of dog videos, trying to better understand behavior and picking up tips from other breeds, hunter trainers, for social skills, IGP trainers for drive, nerve, Service Dog programs for calm confidence, etc- there is a LOT of commonality in the basics...

And I particularly look for MWD trainers with experience in the environments and dogs with similarity to what that the doberman breed was originally bred for...

And finding these best and busy folk is hard, and harder to pick their brain (unless you buy a six figure executive protection dog plus family training)...

Of course the algo feeds me more and especially ads (so I use Brave browser to clean those up)

But occasionally I find stuff thats possibly relevant, and try to track down the source, then bounce the science around in research and anecdotally in the breed, esp on the working side...

What DCF represents to me as "best at..."

So, what do you all think of this?
"Breaking the adrenaline loop".
And the trainer- legit?

PetGentle

trypetgentle.com

 

[BGpa]

PS: some research on independent reviews on device, marketing, "breaking adrenalin loop" is not positive...
So this now segues into what to do instead, with more well regarded tools and methods.

Here is one example-see this video

This video raises all sorts of issue not related to the...

Adjust your expectations! Your dog does not know or care that when you brought him home you had plans and goals. Your dog is a dog with it's own thing going on. It's up to the two of you to find the middle ground that you can both enjoy. Seriously. Like Hey buddy I thought we could be Agility...

www.germanshepherds.com

And then some commentary from the GSD world...some very experienced MWD folk there, that applies to working line dobes

 

[BGpa]

PS: again, just for discussion but I find a lot of good dog common sense on dobes matches what I read elsewhere:'

This video raises all sorts of issue not related to the...

Adjust your expectations! Your dog does not know or care that when you brought him home you had plans and goals. Your dog is a dog with it's own thing going on. It's up to the two of you to find the middle ground that you can both enjoy. Seriously. Like Hey buddy I thought we could be Agility...

www.germanshepherds.com

 

[JanS]

I tried something like that with our first Doberman and it had 0 effect.

 

[Sunje]

To me, this simply says "lack of good training". This is the main reason why I won't get a rescue. You are not only supporting BYBs (in the majority of instances), but you are taking on someone else's throwaway that they screwed up. I realize that some rescues are wonderful dogs, but many were given up b/c the original morons who owned the dog either did not train it properly, did not train it at all, or were overly hard on the dog.

While every dog is different (and I will say that Brio is THE most challenging dog I've ever owned), the majority of them can be taught to be respectful, happy companions. But when you take on baggage from a previous owner/bad experience, you may not be able to work through it. I've seen plenty of that w/ rescues.

I would look at Warwick Schiller's horse training method, just to get an idea. There's plenty from his methods that I've applied to dog training too, most of that being "work w/ the animal you have in front of you", learning to be a calm leader, learning to reward the slightest try and build on that. And you are already familiar w/ Michael Ellis, who I think is one of the best dog trainers out there. The problem w/ looking at or watching videos from many different trainers is that you tend to get mixed up. Far better to pick one training method/trainer that you can really relate to and stick w/ that. When you have more experience, then you can look at different techniques and pick what you like and throw out what you don't.

 

[BGpa]

Thanks @JanS and @Sunje its the experience delivered with discretion and by anecdotes that AI can never replace, only refer to...so your replies have far reaching impact.

Good tip on Warwicke method. Horses and dogs are energy beings. "Center myself first", goes a long way.

12 Principles of Training

MAKE THE WRONG THING HARD AND THE RIGHT THING EASY The basic tenant of this principle is leave your horse alone while he is doing what you want. DON’T GO

warwickschiller.com

 

[Sunje]

Thanks @JanS and @Sunje its the experience delivered with discretion and by anecdotes that AI can never replace, only refer to...so your replies have far reaching impact.

Good tip on Warwicke method. Horses and dogs are energy beings. "Center myself first", goes a long way.

12 Principles of Training

MAKE THE WRONG THING HARD AND THE RIGHT THING EASY The basic tenant of this principle is leave your horse alone while he is doing what you want. DON’T GO

warwickschiller.com

He is one of the few good ones. Most of them are just fair, and some are downright evil (ie, Clinton Anderson).

 

[BGpa]

He is one of the few good ones. Most of them are just fair, and some are downright evil (ie, Clinton Anderson).

I had the good luck to be involved with horses as a dad of daughter riding hunter-jumper. Way too many stories but, yes: my best tip learned here has been "learn from the dog in front of you"...and I have lots more to do.

 

[Ravenbird]

The PetGentle def looks gimmicky to me. @JanS verified.

I haven't watched the video with the Dutch yet, but at a glance and the first few comments on YouTube it is a typical frustration thing that is not at all uncommon in Mals and Duchies and easily fixed before they hit their teens with proper training. If not addressed it could definitely get stupid-bad. Reckless would come up the leash at you as a puppy and was corrected firmly but fair and it was over. It still would show up here and there, only in high frustration (leading to the start of Fast Cat with the other dogs running after the white bag in her eyesight, then at the end, trying to take her off the white bag - yes, she'd bite you), but this is not what I call aggression, this is re-directing frustration. I'll watch the video and let you know if my guess is wrong.

Good tip on Warwicke method.

That tip #1 - "Make the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy" goes all the way back to Ray Hunt, who was one of the best horsemen ever. I look forward to visiting the Warwicke methods, but I'll bet they are based on Hunt. Thanks for that recommendation @Sunje. I agree with this whole paragraph that you wrote:

I would look at Warwick Schiller's horse training method, just to get an idea. There's plenty from his methods that I've applied to dog training too, most of that being "work w/ the animal you have in front of you", learning to be a calm leader, learning to reward the slightest try and build on that. And you are already familiar w/ Michael Ellis, who I think is one of the best dog trainers out there. The problem w/ looking at or watching videos from many different trainers is that you tend to get mixed up. Far better to pick one training method/trainer that you can really relate to and stick w/ that. When you have more experience, then you can look at different techniques and pick what you like and throw out what you don't.

@BGpa - it's good to see a lot of these trainers working their magic, but honestly if you get your next puppy from a good ethical breeder who understands what you're looking for and is confident that they have the puppy with the right temperament for your lifestyle, you won't get a dog that needs "extra help". No matter what breed it is.

 

[Sunje]

The PetGentle def looks gimmicky to me. @JanS verified.

I haven't watched the video with the Dutch yet, but at a glance and the first few comments on YouTube it is a typical frustration thing that is not at all uncommon in Mals and Duchies and easily fixed before they hit their teens with proper training. If not addressed it could definitely get stupid-bad. Reckless would come up the leash at you as a puppy and was corrected firmly but fair and it was over. It still would show up here and there, only in high frustration (leading to the start of Fast Cat with the other dogs running after the white bag in her eyesight, then at the end, trying to take her off the white bag - yes, she'd bite you), but this is not what I call aggression, this is re-directing frustration. I'll watch the video and let you know if my guess is wrong.



That tip #1 - "Make the wrong thing hard and the right thing easy" goes all the way back to Ray Hunt, who was one of the best horsemen ever. I look forward to visiting the Warwicke methods, but I'll bet they are based on Hunt. Thanks for that recommendation @Sunje. I agree with this whole paragraph that you wrote:

I would look at Warwick Schiller's horse training method, just to get an idea. There's plenty from his methods that I've applied to dog training too, most of that being "work w/ the animal you have in front of you", learning to be a calm leader, learning to reward the slightest try and build on that. And you are already familiar w/ Michael Ellis, who I think is one of the best dog trainers out there. The problem w/ looking at or watching videos from many different trainers is that you tend to get mixed up. Far better to pick one training method/trainer that you can really relate to and stick w/ that. When you have more experience, then you can look at different techniques and pick what you like and throw out what you don't.

@BGpa - it's good to see a lot of these trainers working their magic, but honestly if you get your next puppy from a good ethical breeder who understands what you're looking for and is confident that they have the puppy with the right temperament for your lifestyle, you won't get a dog that needs "extra help". No matter what breed it is.

Most of the NH trainers are very similar and do indeed go back to Ray Hunt and the Dorrance brothers. Warwick focuses a little more on simply waiting on the horse, rather than doing a lot of flagging and sending the horse around the round pen. This is why I think that his methods overlap more with working w/ dogs. I've found w/ my own horses, when I treat them as a true partner who gets the chance to input into a situation, I have a much closer bond.

 

[BGpa]

This is why I think that his methods overlap more with working w/ dogs. I've found w/ my own horses, when I treat them as a true partner who gets the chance to input into a situation, I have a much closer bond.

This is true for me too.

 

[Ravenbird]

PS: some research on independent reviews on device, marketing, "breaking adrenalin loop" is not positive...
So this now segues into what to do instead, with more well regarded tools and methods.

Here is one example-see this video

What do you think was accomplished by this trainer/owners of the Dutch Shepherd here?

I'm probably considered harsh by many of the people on this forum, but when up against a dog like this I consider the kind of training demonstrated in this video pretty worthless. They are dancing around the dog, not one time did I see the dog look at any human with total respect and a look that said "whoa, I better not do that again". Not once. Everything they did regarding changing the dogs behavior appears temporary or in-the-moment a better idea to the dog (throwing kibble in the grass for distraction). But nothing they did - that I could see - changed anything in the dogs attitude in the long run. There is still no respect for the humans and the humans are still tip-toeing around the dog. He was given zero reasons to think twice about biting if someone irritated him. He remains a dangerous dog to them and to the public.
Just my humble opinion.

 

[Sunje]

What do you think was accomplished by this trainer/owners of the Dutch Shepherd here?

I'm probably considered harsh by many of the people on this forum, but when up against a dog like this I consider the kind of training demonstrated in this video pretty worthless. They are dancing around the dog, not one time did I see the dog look at any human with total respect and a look that said "whoa, I better not do that again". Not once. Everything they did regarding changing the dogs behavior appears temporary or in-the-moment a better idea to the dog (throwing kibble in the grass for distraction). But nothing they did - that I could see - changed anything in the dogs attitude in the long run. There is still no respect for the humans and the humans are still tip-toeing around the dog. He was given zero reasons to think twice about biting if someone irritated him. He remains a dangerous dog to them and to the public.
Just my humble opinion.

I skimmed a bit of it just now. I wonder if this dog would do better if he was given to a PD to see if he can be used as a police dog. Maybe, maybe not--depends on if they can redirect the aggression in a satisfactory way. OTOH, the decoy in my last schutzhund club had a GSD who was brilliant in the sport, but could turn on the handler in an instant, and had bitten several people/family members before the owner decided it was best to put him to sleep. The dog just didn't have the right wiring to be able to turn it off.

I think it's pretty unfair to ask this dutchie to just be a pet.

 

[BGpa]

@Ravenbird to answer your question:
I thought this might be fun convo starter, that could branch off to whatever direction on dobe specific opinions, so thanks to you and all others- feel free to go wherever past the hook on "PetGentle" to whatever part is of interest.

Specifically- a casual connection I was seeking between the ultrasonic Pet Gentle
(which on some basic research since appears to be a gimmicky ad marketing thing, with the premise unsupported in science or training theory)

And the Tom Davis youtube on his use of the tool: Dogtra vibration mode:

Technique to "break the dogs focus, before frustration, and redirect."

And the positive technique "scatter feed".

And see if this specific major behavior challenge might generate some insights from experiened dobe owners.

(We dont have this problem on BYB Bonnie as she was brought home as a puppy. I'm interested in deeper understanding of behavior from both Mal-GSD and Dobe expertise here at DCF as there is a lot of overlap but key differences I hope some here can share)

But to your point: yes this coming up the leash got way too far, but cool to see the owners digging in to address their OWN changes needed, first.

 

[Ravenbird]

The idea is right, yes. But no matter the breed, the technique to "break the dogs focus, before frustration, and redirect" is a day late and a dollar short because "break the dogs focus" means he's already escalated. Way, way harder to break escalated emotion than to prevent it. Why are so many people finding it so hard to say "NO" add a correction, then continue their walk or whatever they were doing? They held the dog off at arms length, usually backing away - this is submissive behavior to the dog, so even if he didn't get a muzzle punch in, in his mind he had the owner/trainer both backing away as he pushed. That's a win in his mind.

Prevention IS number one, I do agree. The technique, if you want to call it that, with my dog when she was growing up was MY head on a swivel, as @Ddski5 named it. It's not waiting for bad behavior and then distracting them, it's all about it never getting to happen. Asha did not come up the leash. Starting at 12 weeks old, she was an explosive barker and hitting the end of the leash toward her target when she did. I mistakenly tried a PP trainers (we were going to Star Puppy classes) advice to wait it out, then reward not barking. I still kick my ass for trying this method, it was the dumbest thing I've ever done. Asha's worst episodes happened when I was talking with someone and she was on leash beside me. My eyes and brain were on yapping with my friend and not watching my dog and not scanning the environment. If a passer-by was 25 feet away and glanced at Asha, Asha was already watching them and bingo: eye contact and explosive barking ensued. So I'm the one who failed, now I have to correct harshly, de-escalate the dog, and no matter what I do, it's all too late because this is self rewarding behavior. She already got her reward which is a hesitation in the stranger, or the stranger looking away. That's what she wanted, she got it and whatever happened with me popping the leash or commanding a down doesn't matter. So with real help, I learned that prevention is #1 because the less she gets to practice the behavior the better. The more she was getting to practice the explosive barking the more she wanted to keep doing it. So, head on a swivel, I began to scan the environment like she did. If I saw something that may trigger her (dogs and people looking at her were the biggest triggers) I began my distraction immediately. I practiced sit/down/about turns in place which had been already trained with focus on me and involved treats from me intermittently. So before she saw the potential trigger I had her in a fun 30 second obedience drill and she never knew what she missed. Over and over and over for several years. I missed a lot no matter how hard I tried to prevent escalation. She wore an e-collar and yes I used it if she exploded. I also used it when she exploded barking while I was driving. (she'd see workmen guiding traffic or a pan-handler on the corner etc.) In her first year or two of motels she exploded barking at sounds - voices, car doors, motel doors etc. all night long. So she wore an e-collar and I slept with the remote in my hand and I paired the stem with the word "Quiet" and/or "Leave it". The point I'm making on this mention is that I could make her understand that the behavior was not tolerated no matter what caused it. Firm But Fair punishment. She did learn and now can sleep at a motel and ignore the sounds. Unless someone knocks She was not an easy dog, and I think most Dobermans are not this reactive or so belligerent.

If you watch the video again, the Dutch rarely pays full attention to the human end of the leash. There is little devoted attention to the handler, his eyes are on whatever else in the environment is going on. This is hard enough for a dog like that at age 1 or 2, but 9 years would bring about bigger challenges. To change this dogs behavior he must learn that the human on the other end of the leash is the most important thing in the world. To be important is to be respected and to understand boundaries can't be crossed without serious consequences. Tossing kibble and distractions are ok to a point, but the dog at some point must know what behaviors are forbidden.

Reminds me of an analogy: a mother walks in and her 5 year old is coloring on the living room wall. So she says, "look, darling, I have a pad of paper here and let's set this up on the kitchen table with your colors!" and she fixes the table up with brand new paper, colors, and even a cup of orange juice and the youngster is delighted and colors there the rest of the afternoon. A few days later Mom enters the living room and the child again is coloring on the living room wall. What went wrong? She never told the child that coloring on the living room wall was not allowed. She never explained that colors can only be used on the special paper. I'm not saying that she needed a spanking or tempers needed to be flared. But a firm "no, we don't use colors on the wall" clarifies what the boundaries are. Dogs NEED to understand what behaviors are not tolerated in order to make right choices. Clarity means the world to a dog as almost all dogs are eager to please.

 

[BGpa]

The idea is right, yes. But no matter the breed, the technique to "break the dogs focus, before frustration, and redirect" is a day late and a dollar short because "break the dogs focus" means he's already escalated. Way, way harder to break escalated emotion than to prevent it. Why are so many people finding it so hard to say "NO" add a correction, then continue their walk or whatever they were doing? They held the dog off at arms length, usually backing away - this is submissive behavior to the dog, so even if he didn't get a muzzle punch in, in his mind he had the owner/trainer both backing away as he pushed. That's a win in his mind.

Prevention IS number one, I do agree. The technique, if you want to call it that, with my dog when she was growing up was MY head on a swivel, as @Ddski5 named it. It's not waiting for bad behavior and then distracting them, it's all about it never getting to happen. Asha did not come up the leash. Starting at 12 weeks old, she was an explosive barker and hitting the end of the leash toward her target when she did. I mistakenly tried a PP trainers (we were going to Star Puppy classes) advice to wait it out, then reward not barking. I still kick my ass for trying this method, it was the dumbest thing I've ever done. Asha's worst episodes happened when I was talking with someone and she was on leash beside me. My eyes and brain were on yapping with my friend and not watching my dog and not scanning the environment. If a passer-by was 25 feet away and glanced at Asha, Asha was already watching them and bingo: eye contact and explosive barking ensued. So I'm the one who failed, now I have to correct harshly, de-escalate the dog, and no matter what I do, it's all too late because this is self rewarding behavior. She already got her reward which is a hesitation in the stranger, or the stranger looking away. That's what she wanted, she got it and whatever happened with me popping the leash or commanding a down doesn't matter. So with real help, I learned that prevention is #1 because the less she gets to practice the behavior the better. The more she was getting to practice the explosive barking the more she wanted to keep doing it. So, head on a swivel, I began to scan the environment like she did. If I saw something that may trigger her (dogs and people looking at her were the biggest triggers) I began my distraction immediately. I practiced sit/down/about turns in place which had been already trained with focus on me and involved treats from me intermittently. So before she saw the potential trigger I had her in a fun 30 second obedience drill and she never knew what she missed. Over and over and over for several years. I missed a lot no matter how hard I tried to prevent escalation. She wore an e-collar and yes I used it if she exploded. I also used it when she exploded barking while I was driving. (she'd see workmen guiding traffic or a pan-handler on the corner etc.) In her first year or two of motels she exploded barking at sounds - voices, car doors, motel doors etc. all night long. So she wore an e-collar and I slept with the remote in my hand and I paired the stem with the word "Quiet" and/or "Leave it". The point I'm making on this mention is that I could make her understand that the behavior was not tolerated no matter what caused it. Firm But Fair punishment. She did learn and now can sleep at a motel and ignore the sounds. Unless someone knocks She was not an easy dog, and I think most Dobermans are not this reactive or so belligerent.

If you watch the video again, the Dutch rarely pays full attention to the human end of the leash. There is little devoted attention to the handler, his eyes are on whatever else in the environment is going on. This is hard enough for a dog like that at age 1 or 2, but 9 years would bring about bigger challenges. To change this dogs behavior he must learn that the human on the other end of the leash is the most important thing in the world. To be important is to be respected and to understand boundaries can't be crossed without serious consequences. Tossing kibble and distractions are ok to a point, but the dog at some point must know what behaviors are forbidden.

Reminds me of an analogy: a mother walks in and her 5 year old is coloring on the living room wall. So she says, "look, darling, I have a pad of paper here and let's set this up on the kitchen table with your colors!" and she fixes the table up with brand new paper, colors, and even a cup of orange juice and the youngster is delighted and colors there the rest of the afternoon. A few days later Mom enters the living room and the child again is coloring on the living room wall. What went wrong? She never told the child that coloring on the living room wall was not allowed. She never explained that colors can only be used on the special paper. I'm not saying that she needed a spanking or tempers needed to be flared. But a firm "no, we don't use colors on the wall" clarifies what the boundaries are. Dogs NEED to understand what behaviors are not tolerated in order to make right choices. Clarity means the world to a dog as almost all dogs are eager to please.

I agree @Ravenbird . In the puppy-juvenile stage (like human toddler) staying ahead of the dog and training on what is good, what is not, is relatively easy, IMHO from mostly rescues, compared to "fixing" a rescue where it may be months of trust building and years to get them back to "95%" (and in some broken dogs, it comes down to maintaining a full time safety zone, or possibly limited public access and then only with a muzzle.

Unwinding the unacceptable while resetting to start over is much more difficult especially in hard headed dogs bred for independent decision making; mastiffs as castle guardians, herders, livestock guardians.

At that point you are basically putting a patch on it, and looking at long time training, really, for life.

Even with a very high level example of this dedicated couple working together, his story shows the challenge is probably above most average owners capability, esp in R+ only protocols.

I provided this clip from Tom Davis, as to me it shows both his evolution as a trainer and integrity in presenting that challenge.

Kind of reminds me of other trainers who started out and found themselves doing more and more in hard to fix dogs, as that is where many trainers just cant go, or the protocol is simply lacking tools. Larry Crohn, Robert Cabral, Cesar Milan, and I'm now thinking I need to look in on Beckman and his demo dog Prince...

 

[BGpa]

I agree @Ravenbird . In the puppy-juvenile stage (like human toddler) staying ahead of the dog and training on what is good, what is not, is relatively easy, IMHO from mostly rescues, compared to "fixing" a rescue where it may be months of trust building and years to get them back to "95%" (and in some broken dogs, it comes down to maintaining a full time safety zone, or possibly limited public access and then only with a muzzle.

Unwinding the unacceptable while resetting to start over is much more difficult especially in hard headed dogs bred for independent decision making; mastiffs as castle guardians, herders, livestock guardians.

At that point you are basically putting a patch on it, and looking at long time training, really, for life.

Even with a very high level example of this dedicated couple working together, his story shows the challenge is probably above most average owners capability, esp in R+ only protocols.

I provided this clip from Tom Davis, as to me it shows both his evolution as a trainer and integrity in presenting that challenge.

Kind of reminds me of other trainers who started out and found themselves doing more and more in hard to fix dogs, as that is where many trainers just cant go, or the protocol is simply lacking tools. Larry Crohn, Robert Cabral, Cesar Milan, and I'm now thinking I need to look in on Beckman and his demo dog Prince...

@Sunje sadly, I agree. There are too many good dogs in shelters ruined by humans, and too few good humans available with the capability to keep, much less fix them.

 

[Sunje]

@Sunje sadly, I agree. There are too many good dogs in shelters ruined by humans, and too few good humans available with the capability to keep, much less fix them.

Too many rescues, as well as bleeding hearts, cannot accept that it's okay to put a badly injured, agressive, or even an unwanted animal to sleep. Keeping a dog in a "humane" society for 2 years is simply cruel. We can't and don't need to save every one of them.

 

[BGpa]

Here we go: Beckan's most recent is on topic:

Please comment as you like.

 

[BGpa]

Too many rescues, as well as bleeding hearts, cannot accept that it's okay to put a badly injured, agressive, or even an unwanted animal to sleep. Keeping a dog in a "humane" society for 2 years is simply cruel. We can't and don't need to save every one of them.

Agreed @Sunje
There are other issues with "shelters"...
That can become loaded, but since we are talking training of challenging dogs, here is another expert I like who works with shelters: