So even if dobes cant win over GSDs and Mals routinely, is there a role for the breed, in a working sense?
And how to develop that, vs just good looks/fashion in conformation?
Halter class vs working quarter-horse?
Found this and it reminded me of discussions on the breed in re: winning at IGP etc
- Thread starter BGpa
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So even if dobes cant win over GSDs and Mals routinely, is there a role for the breed, in a working sense?
And how to develop that, vs just good looks/fashion in conformation?
Halter class vs working quarter-horse?
You are asking all the questions that I have asked over and over in my mind.
I see our conformation champions changing and morphing into a whole new shape. The highly desired "defined chest" has become over done and pigeon breasted and the rear end has not kept up, giving a top-heavy look. Over-angulation in the hind legs is being ignored. Getting rid of the snipy nose ha resulted in a wet mouth with more flew. The tight cat feet now look like boxes on the end of their legs. I look at pedigree after pedigree on Dobequest of these champions and most of them have zero working titles for 4 - 5 generations. How can they possibly know if this conformation will hold up? Not just for a little bit but for someone who wants a dog to remain sound for years while doing any kind of sports?
All in all, if you want a dog for a specific purpose learn to read pedigrees. If you want a dog to show you'd best have a a show pedigree, if you want a dog with propensity to work, you should make sure th family has working titles up close, not g g g grandparents from 30 years back.
The breed was originally made for a personal guard dog, not a military or police dog. IGP is simply a sport that tests exercises similar to those that were used in real life for GSD military dogs. Not sure what you're asking about a "role for the breed in a working sense" For personal house hold alerting to strangers and barking is still alive and well in the breed. Boldness that it takes to protect under pressure (the boogy man doesn't run away) is more rare to come naturally but can be trained if they are bold to begin with. As working police or military dogs, they have difficulty with being too cold, too hot, they do not adjust themselves to multiple handlers easily, so yes, lost favor amongst those groups.
When you stop testing the dog for anything but looks you have no friggin idea what's on the end of your leash except that it looks like a Doberman.
I see our conformation champions changing and morphing into a whole new shape. The highly desired "defined chest" has become over done and pigeon breasted and the rear end has not kept up, giving a top-heavy look. Over-angulation in the hind legs is being ignored. Getting rid of the snipy nose ha resulted in a wet mouth with more flew. The tight cat feet now look like boxes on the end of their legs. I look at pedigree after pedigree on Dobequest of these champions and most of them have zero working titles for 4 - 5 generations. How can they possibly know if this conformation will hold up? Not just for a little bit but for someone who wants a dog to remain sound for years while doing any kind of sports?
Exactly the same as our dogs. Divided breeding for a specific purpose, either looks or working, and hard to find one that can do/be both. A Champion halter QH can't work. They are muscle bound like a weight lifter, not agile on it's feet like a reining horse, could not be ridden for 8 hours a day moving cattle on the range, and small feet were popular so insult to injury the halter horses had dainty feet to carry more mass. And this is just physical, who knows if a halter QH has any cow savvy left? Nobody can test them because they don't hold up to the job.
All in all, if you want a dog for a specific purpose learn to read pedigrees. If you want a dog to show you'd best have a a show pedigree, if you want a dog with propensity to work, you should make sure th family has working titles up close, not g g g grandparents from 30 years back.
And I've seen some darn nice reining horses out there that should be winning halter.
I'm not a fan of the exaggeration either and same with that damn skinny swan neck that looks like it could snap at any moment.
Our dogs sire is starting getting to be a bit much for my taste on the chest side but he's a grand champion. Don't get me wrong, I think he's a gorgeous dog but I don't like overdone anything.
Same here. Some of the show dogs are simply gorgeous!
My comments are not at all to say the look is "wrong", my point was that as a working dog breed we have joined the trend of AKC's working breeds in that they are looking more and more exaggerated and they are rarely seen working. Not just at what they were originally designed to do (personal protection), but so many lines don't do anything at all. And yes I know some do, but as a whole the drivers of the show ring look do not have a ton of titles behind the names. I'm saying that the top breeders in the country are changing and promoting exaggerated parts & pieces are not proving that it's a good thing and making a better athlete that will hold up through a few years of hard work. Believe me, I'm all on board if these lines could be so stunning and have what it takes to train daily and compete regularly at the top for several years.
So yes, what @BG1 said, halter horses vs reining or cutting horses, they aren't the same at all - the halter horse has been morphed into a showpiece, and if you don't want to cut cows or compete in barrel racing that's fine. This is where knowing what you want in a dog and studying pedigrees and knowing what breeders are being successful doing what you want is important. Those who don't want to compete in anything will find their well bred puppy more easily.
^^^ this. There is an ongoing, perhaps growing need as in any time of change...
The need for well-bred, stable, naturally protective, good with family guardian breeds - also called in some places as "performance pets"....a pup from a litter that wont be shown, or one that "finishes" but lacks the something to be developed further in a breeders line....
If you have "made the cut" yourself as an owner or careful researcher as own,
Then you might find yourself in the right place at right time to get a great family pet, with best chance at good health and longevity.
I'd like to put out the call "to consider being a good home to a rescue dobe", with the caveat that its best to have had a rescue or a dobe before as there is more uncertainty in that.
Schutzhund is supposed to be a basic, general purpose test of overall temperament and physical ability to determine breeding suitability.
Police and Military in the past, just like today have their own evaluation and testing criteria. Just like today, titled dogs of the past were not automatically suitable for mil or LE work. Obtaining a Schutzhund title was just one part of the process for establishing whether a dog was "Good enough" to be considered for breeding.
I haven't had a Dobermann for some time now however I still have a high interest in the breed. The primary reason I never got another Dobermann is that there are so few breeders with a established track record of producing working dogs. I think this is a direct reflection of the fact that so very, very, very few Dobermann owners/enthusiasts know what working temperament is. Breeders can have visions and desires about producing good dogs but breeding is expensive and time consuming. Breeders need to sell dogs to support their programs. Of course there are breeders, even so-called "good" ones who health test, etc; who are absolutely clueless about what "working ability" is, and obviously are subsequently completely incapable of testing for it. Between clueless buyers and clueless breeders, we have a breed problem.
Schutzhund (IPO, IGP, whatever it's going to be called next) is a highly competitive sport and it is of course difficult to achieve top scores. As part of determining breeding suitability though, SchH is a basic, basic, basic general purpose test. Of course it's not for a Border Collie or Hunting dog but it's 100% applicable for the Dobermann.
As long as Dobermann owners and breeders consider a basic test like SchH to be a "military or police suitability" test, or pretend the test doesn't fit Dobermanns, or claim it's too much, etc, - the breed will continue it's downward spiral.
We've got to first admit and accept the breed needs improvement. At an absolute minimum, the breed club should insist on ZTP and related testing as a prerequisite for AKC registration of litters. That's unlikely to happen anytime soon, if ever, so change has to start with dog buyers. Breeders will respond when a significant number of prospective Dobermann buyers are educated and start demanding good dogs. When the average, random Dobermann owner thinks testing is not necessary or not applicable and believe the dogs currently have "good" temperaments, nothing will change for the better.
Police and Military in the past, just like today have their own evaluation and testing criteria. Just like today, titled dogs of the past were not automatically suitable for mil or LE work. Obtaining a Schutzhund title was just one part of the process for establishing whether a dog was "Good enough" to be considered for breeding.
I haven't had a Dobermann for some time now however I still have a high interest in the breed. The primary reason I never got another Dobermann is that there are so few breeders with a established track record of producing working dogs. I think this is a direct reflection of the fact that so very, very, very few Dobermann owners/enthusiasts know what working temperament is. Breeders can have visions and desires about producing good dogs but breeding is expensive and time consuming. Breeders need to sell dogs to support their programs. Of course there are breeders, even so-called "good" ones who health test, etc; who are absolutely clueless about what "working ability" is, and obviously are subsequently completely incapable of testing for it. Between clueless buyers and clueless breeders, we have a breed problem.
Schutzhund (IPO, IGP, whatever it's going to be called next) is a highly competitive sport and it is of course difficult to achieve top scores. As part of determining breeding suitability though, SchH is a basic, basic, basic general purpose test. Of course it's not for a Border Collie or Hunting dog but it's 100% applicable for the Dobermann.
As long as Dobermann owners and breeders consider a basic test like SchH to be a "military or police suitability" test, or pretend the test doesn't fit Dobermanns, or claim it's too much, etc, - the breed will continue it's downward spiral.
We've got to first admit and accept the breed needs improvement. At an absolute minimum, the breed club should insist on ZTP and related testing as a prerequisite for AKC registration of litters. That's unlikely to happen anytime soon, if ever, so change has to start with dog buyers. Breeders will respond when a significant number of prospective Dobermann buyers are educated and start demanding good dogs. When the average, random Dobermann owner thinks testing is not necessary or not applicable and believe the dogs currently have "good" temperaments, nothing will change for the better.
@adhahn thanks for that reply. Good to know there are knowledgeable and frank owners still reading here. After spending quite a bit of time reading and interacting with mostly show dobe folk I have to sadly agree with your posts including the one with article back in 2016.
Saw much the same in daughters hunter-jumper experience.
I think I'm going to put my remaining time into getting to know more working side folks, frst by watching regional trials etc. I dont need a "hot" high drive dobe for IGP trials or PPD but I think I like the people more....sorry to be blunt.
It's an interesting journey for sure. I think there is more drama in the show world, but unfortunately I've seen drama unfolding in the working Dobes world as well. Maybe it's the people who own Dobermans
- we seem to be just like our dogs: sharp around the edges and barky.There are definitely drama queens and super competitive people who can't seem to be nice no matter what, but when you find the kind and helpful people that want to work together you won't be sorry - and I'm talking about any venue or sport. In the bitey sports there will be some holier-than-thou attitudes from some of the GSD/Mal people who don't like any off breeds and don't make any effort to hide their thoughts. I was lucky to find a club that had more off breeds than GSDs and Mals, and I learned a ton - it was a terrific experience.
Also, seriously, the working line Dobes if well bred with good nerves don't have to go into bite sports, they just need solid training in manners and a fairly active home life. Again, what @adhahn pointed out - the breed is NOT what it use to be! The working Dobes 30 years ago I think were more solid in nature. My "perfect dog" from the 1990's was not reactive, never whined, super chill being left alone even in strange places, no demanding activity, happy to do whatever etc etc. Her sires line was almost entirely IGP3 German dogs and was out of a pretty plain bitch with one line of German and otherwise backyard unknowns. So to me it's "not normal" that the working lines have to be squeezed into expert hands with lined up work. I'll have to continue this thought later, but I've voiced it before.
I think I figured out one of the problems was that some of the countries across the pond required IGP1 for breeding? And some of the big breeders - esp pet/show/export types - were producing overly reactive sharp temperaments that could get an IGP1 under the right type of judge for the routine quickly at a young age and then off to the breeding shed. The bark and bite comes easily to a reactive dog without much encouragement - the opposite of some American show dogs. The people that didn't know better see IGP all over the pedigree and think they have been tested so they must be good working lines, when truthfully many were barely passing. I saw a video of an IGP1 Dobe testing somewhere in Europe and it was woefully inadequate even by local club standards here in the U.S. - it was posted saying the breeder knew & arranged for this dog to pass even though it did not have the temperament of a working dog. So there's the breeders purposely misguiding buyers and then there are, as you say, those that think their dogs are good working dogs. Do you know if this thought has any truth to it?
And then we have the IGP standards getting softer every other year seems like. A whole new discussion of all the breeds not being what they use to be...
But I still prefer and admire the people and the dogs that get out there and work at keeping the Doberman working. So much knowledge has been lost but I keep hoping a younger generation will be sparked to bring it all back.
Don’t know much about IGP or bitey sports but I do know that there is nothing comparable to a Doberman in my mind. Their protective loyalty, alertness, the bond, the stoic stature, etc…I know it’s decreasing and would hate for them to lose their genetic disposition/job and what they have to offer to us.
People cheat. There have been claims of so-called 'midnight trials' for decades. That doesn't invalidate the overall importance or value of having standards and testing for them.
Police are expected to pass a qualification test to establish that they have a basic level of safety and competence with the gun(s) they will be carrying while serving the public. Sometimes Police Officers do not legitimately pass their firearm qualification.
For various reasons, instructors/rangemasters either willingly or under coercion go to great lengths to baby an Officer through a qual until a "Pass" is achieved. This means there are Police Officers carrying guns who couldn't pass a qual administered by an objective rangemaster who was upholding strict standards.
The fact that there is some (or even a lot) of "cheating" does not invalidate the importance of firearms qualifications for Police Officers. Yes, the public does not know what an individual Officer's competency level is or even if he legitimately passed a basic qual. Overall though, because firearm competency testing exists, even though cheating occurs the public can reasonably expect a basic level of firearm competence from a random Police Officer carrying a gun.
Getting back to the sketchy trials- The accusation typically made about the dogs getting titled under sketchy circumstances using the right Judge has not historically been about overly reactive sharp temperaments. The normal accusation is about dogs who lack courage and fight.
I'm sure both types of dogs have cheated their way through the system at one time or another but one is definitely more likely than the other. Hiding or controlling a reactive, overly sharp temperament to get through a regular trial is possible but putting genetic courage or fight into a dog is not possible.
I totally agree - I never want to dismiss the testing & the standards and I love the sport!
I was asking about the cheating because I heard rumor of it for years but couldn't figure out how you could pass at a trial in front of so many people. This "trial" there was only one entry, one judge, and one helper and I guess a friend who filmed it. Then the lightbulb came on in my pea brain. I want to believe that most people are honest, but reality stinks. I thought maybe I shared that video here but I can't find it, so maybe not. It was probably about 3-4 years ago, but the film itself was much older than that.
I've seen the cheating more in the horse show ring but of course with any judged event, it's subjective and outcomes can vary.
