How do I correct sudden aggression towards our senior dog?

[baleria.m]

Hi all
Our girl Luna has been having bursts of aggression towards our 12 year old miniature schnauzer, also a female
They have been living together since Luna came home 3 years ago and had not had any problems up until a few weeks ago.
I first noticed it when we came home from the beach, our schnauzer Mili was smelling her when she suddenly snapped at her, I immediately gave her a loud NO and put her in her kennel.
She’s always been like that about her personal space like when she’s sleeping if our cats accidentally walk over her she gets mad and throws a quick snap, not quite a bite but we also correct it and send her to her kennel because we don’t want her to ever accidentally hurt the cats. So her reacting like that when Mili was smelling her a little too excitedly didn’t surprise me too much?
Anyway there have been other instances like this if Mili gets really close to me when she’s also close to me she turns snappy and territorial

We live in the same property as two Rhodesian ridgebacks and when we are all outside and the ridgebacks get a little too intense with me she also gets in between and growls at them for them to back off at but it isnt as loudly and aggressively as she gets with our oldest.
All females, had never had a problem, she just suddenly had an issue with our 12 year old Mili.
I get she’s being territorial/protective over me and it’s confusing because in a way you do appreciate it bc that’s what they do, but I don’t want that to be directed towards our older dog or to keep escalating to her getting like that with the other dogs too.
We started feeling Mili her treats first to check Luna’s attitude a little bit but that’s just a small step, what else can I do to help?
Thanks!

 

[Ddski5]

I’ve seen this issue a lot on here. Young and not so young Doberman getting snappy at already established elder dog.

Territorial? Protective? Doing what they feel is right? I can tell you that my Dobermans were very much more reactive to other animals than other humans. Yes, I think mine are more desensitized to humans but I also think it’s in their nature protect against animals. Not that this is an excuse to become aggressively reactive to an already established dog mate though…

I don’t have any idea on why they are fine one minute and then go off the next. It’s part of that innate animal hierarchical survival instinct they have I guess….

How to treat it, fix?? My best suggestion is to see it before it happens and prevent it. Don’t put them in the circumstance of chance. Thats tough to do because it doesn’t allow for them two to have free maneuverability amongst themselves. But then it’s not fair for Mili to live in fear/terror. At 12yrs, she has earned her peace and comfort.

Or if you have confidence and strong control- obedience wise…you can short leash her to you side and lock her ass down- all the while you watching her tells and demeanor and then training her that behavior is absolutely not acceptable in your house. This can be done but you have to catch her just right when it’s on her mind to snap and immediately correct that thought/action. I am not for sure she will recognize the bad behavior you are trying to correct if it’s after the action has occurred. Especially if it’s an instinctive action. Kinda like a dog pooping and then you giving negative 2-3mins afterwards- it’s not gonna be received as a correction of the past action.

After you catch her right as the thought is produced, if you are able to correct/redirect- then after, let’s say 100x correcting…she won’t act on it but instead look at you because she knows, she has been retrained that when she has this thought- you are on her arse. Lots of work- second by second minute by minute staying on it and watching her mannerisms.

 

[Ravenbird]

other instances like this if Mili gets really close to me when she’s also close to me she turns snappy and territorial

the ridgebacks get a little too intense with me she also gets in between and growls at them for them to back off at but it isnt as loudly and aggressively as she gets with our oldest.

I get she’s being territorial/protective over me and it’s confusing because in a way you do appreciate it bc that’s what they do, but I don’t want that to be directed towards our older dog or to keep escalating to her getting like that with the other dogs too.

All this suggests that Luna is showing resource guarding over you and also her own space, like when the cat walks too close or Mili sniffs her. It can and will escalate if you don't forbid it, so I'd start with what @Ddski5 suggested, specifically trying to correct it before it happens. If both the dogs are currently allowed on the furniture with you, I would put Luna on a dog bed on the floor. If she has obedience training, she should be told to go to her place while you watch tv or whatever to prevent her from claiming a spot next to you to "protect" against Mili. Most resource guarding come from the human not being a clear leader, so in this case Luna wants to run the show and tell all the other dogs what they can and can't do. Once you establish that only YOU tell Mili or the RR dogs their boundaries, then Luna will respect that.

 

[baleria.m]

All this suggests that Luna is showing resource guarding over you and also her own space, like when the cat walks too close or Mili sniffs her. It can and will escalate if you don't forbid it, so I'd start with what @Ddski5 suggested, specifically trying to correct it before it happens. If both the dogs are currently allowed on the furniture with you, I would put Luna on a dog bed on the floor. If she has obedience training, she should be told to go to her place while you watch tv or whatever to prevent her from claiming a spot next to you to "protect" against Mili. Most resource guarding come from the human not being a clear leader, so in this case Luna wants to run the show and tell all the other dogs what they can and can't do. Once you establish that only YOU tell Mili or the RR dogs their boundaries, then Luna will respect that.

This is all helpful feedback, I will take this into account as well as what @Ddski5 suggested
Thank you for taking the time to reply

 

[baleria.m]

All this suggests that Luna is showing resource guarding over you and also her own space, like when the cat walks too close or Mili sniffs her. It can and will escalate if you don't forbid it, so I'd start with what @Ddski5 suggested, specifically trying to correct it before it happens. If both the dogs are currently allowed on the furniture with you, I would put Luna on a dog bed on the floor. If she has obedience training, she should be told to go to her place while you watch tv or whatever to prevent her from claiming a spot next to you to "protect" against Mili. Most resource guarding come from the human not being a clear leader, so in this case Luna wants to run the show and tell all the other dogs what they can and can't do. Once you establish that only YOU tell Mili or the RR dogs their boundaries, then Luna will respect that.

This makes perfect sense, I will need to be very attentive to their body language, Luna’s more than anything
Like you said, Mili has earned and deserves her peace and quiet so I will take all the necessary steps to ensure that everyone can coexist peacefully in our home. Thank you for taking the time to reply

 

[Two Dobes]

I am sure this will be a challenge, but you can do it! And Luna will be easier to deal with, once you 'retrain' her thoughts before she acts....Keep us posted!

 

[Ddski5]

@baleria.m
I don’t mean any judgement or disrespect but this is something in which you cannot be a candy ass about. @Ravenbird is 100% correct in which she

so in this case Luna wants to run the show and tell all the other dogs what they can and can't do. Once you establish that only YOU tell Mili or the RR dogs their boundaries, then Luna will respect that.

you are going to have to be firm, unwavering with the consistency of expectations you set forth. If you are softhearted and let it ride, she will continue and get worse. If you are consistent and persistent, she will thrive on it really. That’s what they really want anyways- attention and direction.

 

[baleria.m]

@baleria.m
I don’t mean any judgement or disrespect but this is something in which you cannot be a candy ass about. @Ravenbird is 100% correct in which she


you are going to have to be firm, unwavering with the consistency of expectations you set forth. If you are softhearted and let it ride, she will continue and get worse. If you are consistent and persistent, she will thrive on it really. That’s what they really want anyways- attention and direction.

Of course! I don’t know why or how it would’ve come out like I’m not taking this seriously or trying to be soft about it but 100% agree with you

 

[baleria.m]

I am sure this will be a challenge, but you can do it! And Luna will be easier to deal with, once you 'retrain' her thoughts before she acts....Keep us posted!

Yes just a lot of work but that’s what they are and I love her for it haha
I’ll check back in later, thank you for the encouragement

 

[Ddski5]

Of course! I don’t know why or how it would’ve come out like I’m not taking this seriously or trying to be soft about it but 100% agree with you

You did not present as if you were not taking it seriously . I was just saying to say…
I have found with my Dobermans, they will sneak, squirm and push boundaries as much as they can but at the same time thrive off my consistency to stay strong with boundaries/expectations. Really reminds me of my middle daughter tbh.

 

[MyBuddy]

I have a similar situation in that I have a young female Doberman just over a year old and a 14 year old female Chihuahua mix.

Annie, the Doberman has not shown any aggression. In any situation whether it's with my 14-year-old or anyone/anything else. But just the size difference between the two of them makes me cautious on how they relate.

I'm always watching to be sure that my 14-year-old, Kali, is safe from the antics of Annie. She wants to play sometimes but she's just too big and Kali is too old. So I'm very protective of her and the 'leave it' command to Annie applies to Kali also.

One of the things that Annie would do is to rush past Kali. Nearly knocking her over. I would watch that and get mad thinking it's like she's being a bully. They'll be plenty of room on the other side but she has to rush past her, much too close. And Kali is blind in one eye so that doesn't help. So one thing that I started early was to make her wait at any door we go in or out. Annie has to wait and let the old lady go first! Even if once Kali and I go through, she rushes past us. I don't care. I just wanted her to learn not to rush the door and brush past Kali in the moment. She's gotten very good at it and many times I don't even have to remind her. She will hang back and wait for us to go out the door.

So teaching your Luna to be a little more respectful of the Elder goes a long way. It shows that she has priority.

I feed them together, only maybe six feet apart. One on one side of me; one on the other as I make their bowls and put them down. They have to sit patiently and not make a sound. And I always feed Kali first. Again, another little priority with Kali that I feel is imprinting to Annie that she is to be respected. Neither one is to touch the others bowl either. Even if it's empty. I don't leave the empty bowls down very long but as long as they are there they're not to touch the others bowl.

Just a couple things I can think of right now with my two that may relate to your two munchkins.

 

[baleria.m]

I have a similar situation in that I have a young female Doberman just over a year old and a 14 year old female Chihuahua mix.

Annie, the Doberman has not shown any aggression. In any situation whether it's with my 14-year-old or anyone/anything else. But just the size difference between the two of them makes me cautious on how they relate.

I'm always watching to be sure that my 14-year-old, Kali, is safe from the antics of Annie. She wants to play sometimes but she's just too big and Kali is too old. So I'm very protective of her and the 'leave it' command to Annie applies to Kali also.

One of the things that Annie would do is to rush past Kali. Nearly knocking her over. I would watch that and get mad thinking it's like she's being a bully. They'll be plenty of room on the other side but she has to rush past her, much too close. And Kali is blind in one eye so that doesn't help. So one thing that I started early was to make her wait at any door we go in or out. Annie has to wait and let the old lady go first! Even if once Kali and I go through, she rushes past us. I don't care. I just wanted her to learn not to rush the door and brush past Kali in the moment. She's gotten very good at it and many times I don't even have to remind her. She will hang back and wait for us to go out the door.

So teaching your Luna to be a little more respectful of the Elder goes a long way. It shows that she has priority.

I feed them together, only maybe six feet apart. One on one side of me; one on the other as I make their bowls and put them down. They have to sit patiently and not make a sound. And I always feed Kali first. Again, another little priority with Kali that I feel is imprinting to Annie that she is to be respected. Neither one is to touch the others bowl either. Even if it's empty. I don't leave the empty bowls down very long but as long as they are there they're not to touch the others bowl.

Just a couple things I can think of right now with my two that may relate to your two munchkins.

Thats very helpful too! Manners are important and something I had admittedly overlooked in our training since it hadn’t been an issue until most recently
We started doing things together, myself, Luna and Mili like playing and training, but Mrs Mili getting firsts as far as coming in and out, getting fed first, and saying hi to her first when I come home. Luna is catching on quick and fortunately we haven’t had any issues the last two days

I’m glad to hear Annie (I love her name btw) has learned to coexist respectfully around Kali so far, the size difference would make me a little nervous too but with consistency I’m sure it will reinforce her good manners around her elders
Here is a picture of Luna and two of our cats lounging just now. No snapping at anyone they truly are great dogs, just need some fine tuning sometimes but I love how much they love to be trained

 

[Ravenbird]

but I love how much they love to be trained

I've never seen a dog so eager to train as a Doberman. They don't look at it like you're "telling them what to do", but more of "oh boy, you're spending time with me one-on-one, I'll prove I can learn anything".

 

[Aaron56]

I have a similar situation in that I have a young female Doberman just over a year old and a 14 year old female Chihuahua mix.

I 'thought' I had it rough having an older female Doberman and a much younger female Doberman at the same time but you got me beat.

I do find myself having to step in here and there on occasion to tell the young one to 'Get AWAY from my dog!'.

Depending on how 'wound up' younger girl is at the time - Sometimes that sort of 'command' will be ignored completely (Knowing darn well that bitch heard me clearly) and has to be backed up before it is followed.

I try my best to watch and pick up any cues from my older girl and reinforce any sort of 'decisions' that she makes. If it looks like she is signalling that she is done playing - I will step in to make sure the younger dog picks up on that message if needed.

The proper 'spot' for new girl is whatever spot the older girl has not decided was hers.

I do love the new girl here but she is still at the very bottom of the totem pole as far as the 'family' here is concerned.

 

[Kswoodssue]

I agree with all the above, but will throw in an additional thought. Dogs sense weakness or illness in other dogs. (As well as in their owners.) Making a move to change the hierarchy would be natural to them. Just wondering if your 3 yr old is sensing something different in your senior dog. Just a thought.