Needing to nip pulling in the bud... too early?

[MichiH]

A choke collar or martingale did not work for me. Just coughed and choked him. Also tried leash pressure, did not work either- granted I prob was not doing it correctly. I battle with leash pressure and doing 180’s until I finally gave in at 5 months and got a prong- The absolute game changer was a prong collar- like night and day.

I am having this issue now with Pepper. I’ve tried, slip lead, martingale, harness, and flat.

None work. When she’s doing well the martingale works well no issues, but she’s hit or miss. Idk what causes her to walk correctly. I’ll train her before we walk and do some drills on leash. May be a successful walk or she loses her mind and pulls. Or it’s half and half.

Prong worked? She knows her commands and will even do them outside with distractions bro always 100 percent, but well for 15 weeks.


send help lol

 

[MichiH]

I agree that training is going to be your most powerful tool.

As for collars: I have never stopped using a choke collar. I know they have fallen out of favor both with people who know (or seem to know) their stuff, and with the clueless general public. A choke collar is fine though. I use a fur saver choke collar because it looks a lot better to me than the good old chokers you can find in the supermarket. Now that I own a different type of dog that actually has a medium/long coat, the fur saver is really a plus.

In addition to the reasons for a harness stated above, with Dobes, I always switched to a harness once the dog was about 2 - 3 years old and nice and trained. The reason is that Dobes' necks are long and elegant and more prone to spinal injury than some other breeds, especially since Dobes are powerful and explosive despite having the elegant neck. So yeah, I would not use a harness at this point at all. I know a harness is the thing that good ol' general public favors these days as it seems more "humane" to them than a collar; but never mind that stuff.

What age did you use the choke?

 

[Oh Little Oji]

What age did you use the choke?

Usually once the puppy outgrows the collar that the breeder provided. This might be about 4 months or so. I am appropriately gentle based upon the dog's size. If the pup is exuberant and prone to explosive motions you might want to be careful to not let them jerk themselves too hard.

It's interesting: My last Dobe had a windpipe that was rather prominent. I find this a quality to be incompatible with being an actual working dog, but then he had eyes that were not deep-set, so he definitely had his flaws for a working Dobe; but despite all the jerks he received on a choker, he never got hurt.

 

[JanS]

Yeah, they shouldn't be introduced to a prong until they're at least 6 months old and then it needs to be used properly.

Elroy was well over a year old before we introduced him to a prong and our 10 month old girl is still on a slip lead since she's easy to handle on that.

 

[Ravenbird]

I am having this issue now with Pepper. I’ve tried, slip lead, martingale, harness, and flat.

None work. When she’s doing well the martingale works well no issues, but she’s hit or miss. Idk what causes her to walk correctly. I’ll train her before we walk and do some drills on leash. May be a successful walk or she loses her mind and pulls. Or it’s half and half.

Prong worked? She knows her commands and will even do them outside with distractions bro always 100 percent, but well for 15 weeks.

LOL, not funny, Asha still pulls to this day if she wants to. For just walking the neighborhood sidewalks and not in training mode they kind of have their own agenda and she's too young to keep on a training heel for a long pleasure/exercise walk and heeling the whole way would defeat the purpose. Unless it's just an awful out of control madness, a prong collar pretty much is self correcting. You rarely, if ever have to pull on it, much less pop them with it. I put off using it as long as I could, but think I started using it at about 5 or 6 months because Asha was learning more and more bad habits that I couldn't correct (I could but she didn't care) and getting strong. The e-collar is for sure to be put off until they are very clear on what you're asking, the prong collar not so much if you just walk her with it and let her lean into it and she will self correct. Don't do anything harsh with it at all.

 

[MichiH]

Usually once the puppy outgrows the collar that the breeder provided. This might be about 4 months or so. I am appropriately gentle based upon the dog's size. If the pup is exuberant and prone to explosive motions you might want to be careful to not let them jerk themselves too hard.

It's interesting: My last Dobe had a windpipe that was rather prominent. I find this a quality to be incompatible with being an actual working dog, but then he had eyes that were not deep-set, so he definitely had his flaws for a working Dobe; but despite all the jerks he received on a choker, he never got hurt.

Interesting thank you for your advice I appreciate it.

She is on and off sometimes she actually walks well and with training she’s great. Then out of nowhere spazzs like a wild horse. Goes left then right and it’s awful I feel bad as we are on a 6 ft leash.

So maybe best for me to wait and start print or choke around 6 months if she calms down.

 

[MichiH]

LOL, not funny, Asha still pulls to this day if she wants to. For just walking the neighborhood sidewalks and not in training mode they kind of have their own agenda and she's too young to keep on a training heel for a long pleasure/exercise walk and heeling the whole way would defeat the purpose. Unless it's just an awful out of control madness, a prong collar pretty much is self correcting. You rarely, if ever have to pull on it, much less pop them with it. I put off using it as long as I could, but think I started using it at about 5 or 6 months because Asha was learning more and more bad habits that I couldn't correct (I could but she didn't care) and getting strong. The e-collar is for sure to be put off until they are very clear on what you're asking, the prong collar not so much if you just walk her with it and let her lean into it and she will self correct. Don't do anything harsh with it at all.

Great info thank you!!!

She’s so on and off does really well and when we rein even outside goes well. Then we head for a walk and she’s ok and then she’s not. I can even sit outside a store with her in my lap and she won’t bark at a thing. Then when she’s on a walk at home shes barking at it all. I’m confused.
I can usually redirect her and we run quickly the other way and she past it. I have the martingale on her now.

We also train a lot so she’s getting the part of it and lots of fun too.

I am for sure going to get a prong later on for her. She’s only 4 months now. That’s really good to know she’ll self correct with it. She knows a lot of commands and is semi calm when need be so prong would help when it’s times. I won’t rely on a tool.

E collar scares me honestly.

Thank you so much!

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Yeah, they shouldn't be introduced to a prong until they're at least 6 months old and then it needs to be used properly.

Elroy was well over a year old before we introduced him to a prong and our 10 month old girl is still on a slip lead since she's easy to handle on that.

Oh, I hope they meant a choker when they wrote "choke".

 

[MichiH]

Oh, I hope they meant a choker when they wrote "choke".

Yes sorry prong and choker I meant I really stink at typing on here and with her lol

And I did slip but she chokes badly

 

[JanS]

Aren't choke and choker the same thing? Around here some just tried to soften it up, but they mean the chain slip collar that's so hard on the trachea.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Aren't choke and choker the same thing? Around here some just tried to soften it up, but they mean the chain slip collar that's so hard on the trachea.
View attachment 142417

Yeah, I think there is a mixing up of terms in this thread.

 

[Ravenbird]

Choke chains are fine if they don't pull and/or the are sensitive. Asha didn't do well at all with them, she'd just lean into it and gag and choke while dragging me behind her. Didn't matter if it was a skinny chain or a fat loop rope leash, she'd just lean on it until she gagged. And on the other hand, my previous other Dobermans just walked fine on them as they never pulled for any reason, ever.

 

[JanS]

It's funny but I can slide the small snake chain show collar on the dogs and when they know they're going in the ring, it's like controlling them on a string.

 

[Rits]

It's all a matter of training. For show we teach our pups to give to leash pressure very early on. Like I'm about to put a slip leash on the 8 week old pups, literal shoe string thickness. Some freak out initially and pull back, like a wild animal on the line, but VERY quickly learn that pressure stops when they give in to it. Plus, they get a treat and lots of verbal praise! The earlier you teach them the better. They can learn it later on too, it'll require probably 10x more repetitions than one or two good lessons with the babies.

For any dog of any age I would consistently work on luring correct position. Use a prong for when you need to get from point A to B with no time to train. Putting in the work will greatly pay off later though!

 

[MichiH]

Aren't choke and choker the same thing? Around here some just tried to soften it up, but they mean the chain slip collar that's so hard on the trachea.
View attachment 142417

Yep same I didn’t mean to

It's all a matter of training. For show we teach our pups to give to leash pressure very early on. Like I'm about to put a slip leash on the 8 week old pups, literal shoe string thickness. Some freak out initially and pull back, like a wild animal on the line, but VERY quickly learn that pressure stops when they give in to it. Plus, they get a treat and lots of verbal praise! The earlier you teach them the better. They can learn it later on too, it'll require probably 10x more repetitions than one or two good lessons with the babies.

For any dog of any age I would consistently work on luring correct position. Use a prong for when you need to get from point A to B with no time to train. Putting in the work will greatly pay off later

 

[MichiH]

It's all a matter of training. For show we teach our pups to give to leash pressure very early on. Like I'm about to put a slip leash on the 8 week old pups, literal shoe string thickness. Some freak out initially and pull back, like a wild animal on the line, but VERY quickly learn that pressure stops when they give in to it. Plus, they get a treat and lots of verbal praise! The earlier you teach them the better. They can learn it later on too, it'll require probably 10x more repetitions than one or two good lessons with the babies.

For any dog of any age I would consistently work on luring correct position. Use a prong for when you need to get from point A to B with no time to train. Putting in the work will greatly pay off later though!

Great advice thank you pay off is what I’m crossing my fingers for

 

[Ravenbird]

It's funny but I can slide the small snake chain show collar on the dogs and when they know they're going in the ring, it's like controlling them on a string.

That's how my other two Dobes were.

we teach our pups to give to leash pressure very early on

They can learn it later on too, it'll require probably 10x more repetitions than one or two good lessons with the babies.

Early is always best. And yes, the longer you wait to teach, usually the longer it takes for them to get out of old habits.

but VERY quickly learn that pressure stops when they give in to it.

I'm going to beg to differ here. My first two were like this. I thought when I got my puppy it would be like my other dogs. She was not. The blood, sweat and tears were real. Before I got Asha I read through these forums and just thought the people complaining about their out of control, pulling, whining, sofa-eating dogs didn't know how to train an intelligent dog. God delivered to me the biggest slice of humble pie in the name of Asha.
Nothing I ever did before worked with this one. I spent months with treats and luring and letting her gag on the flat collar and choke chain. The martingale was just like a flat collar to her. She was impervious to pain. She slapped cactus back when it poked her. I could pinch her toes like a vice grip for trimming and she didn't care. Her proverbial middle finger was thrown at me constantly.

This is why I'm always showing up for people who come here wondering why they can't train their puppy. It's not always lack of training or lack of trying or lack of doing thing early or lack of consistency. Sometimes it's just a hard puppy and it takes time to get the wins. More steps back than forward, but inching forward nonetheless. Not all Dobermans are easy and I never understood how a 3 or 4 month old puppy could possibly make anyone feel like a failure until I got mine.

All the advice given up above on training the puppy is true, but when the magic doesn't happen, don't think you failed, just keep on. The two things I wished I done more of at 3 months to a year is implementing more play and *stop doing what wasn't working*.

 

[Kswoodssue]

Sasha will be 2 on the 19th. I still see those moments that seem like inconsistency, but I also know that her senses are so much more refined than mine. She sees and smells and hears things that I cannot. Maturity and training will help your pup learn what is an appropriate response to that stimuli. We take Sasha everywhere. She travels with us, shops with us…she even has buddies at our church office she visits. She is on a first name basis at TSC and the wholesale warehouse we frequent. We use a prong collar everywhere. Like @Ravenbird ’s pup, our girl pulls like a mule. At 68 lbs she is very strong. There are off leash times that she heels with her head attached to my left thigh like glue, but on leash she pulls without the prong. Perhaps that makes us terrible trainers, BUT that is how it is. The prong protects HER. It keeps her from heading into traffic, or taking after the big bearded guy she doesn’t like, or from knocking over the child she wants to play with. The prong provides a measurable consistency in a very inconsistent world…and allows my arthritic knees protection. We won’t stop working on a consistent heel, but in the meantime I will do what works for the safety of my individual and unique pup.

 

[Rits]

This is why I'm always showing up for people who come here wondering why they can't train their puppy. It's not always lack of training or lack of trying or lack of doing thing early or lack of consistency. Sometimes it's just a hard puppy and it takes time to get the wins. More steps back than forward, but inching forward nonetheless. Not all Dobermans are easy and I never understood how a 3 or 4 month old puppy could possibly make anyone feel like a failure until I got mine.

That may be very well true. What you quoted me was me talking about a 8 week old puppy. This is why it's important to start early. And why I then went on to say it can be done later but will take 10x more repetitions. It isn't impossible but requires persistence, as most training does.

I didn't start Ripley young with leash pressure. It wasn't until maybe 4-6 months? It took forever to get a nice heel on her...like hello, I wasn't ready to trial her for her BN with the heel on leash until she was 3 years old. Even with all the obedience classes and reinforcing with a prong when she was old enough. When she was young, I could only go a few steps without the prong. But we celebrated those few steps and back on the prong went to continue the walk. There's a reason heeling is the most difficult skill to teach. If you want to be successful, it needs to be constantly reinforced and rewarded, the earlier the better, the more often the better. If I could go back, I would do what I did with all the other dogs that followed her. Lure early. Lure at 8 weeks. Lots of mini sessions. Lots of play. Leash pressure early. Why do you think sport prospect puppies are so successful with a beautiful heel? Those trainers are doing those same things. Persistence pays off. It is exhausting though and I'm human...so I like to use a prong to supplement. Nothing wrong with a prong, which is why I said if you want to get to point A to B use a prong. It's impossible to try to enjoy a walk with a puppy that doesn't know how to walk, lol. I was just answering the question of, what to do when you don't want to use a prong just yet on a 4 month old puppy.

Btw, to put things in perspective my 3.5 yo dog that can heel when asked, still wears a prong when we go out in public for everyday outings. I do this because I like to actually enjoy my walk and not let my dog get away with not being on a loose leash and ruin all of our years of training Cause I know that can creep in if I'm not in active training mode. A little out of position here, a little there and thus "heel" would be very confusing for her because I'm not consistent on what I want.

 

[MichiH]

Sasha will be 2 on the 19th. I still see those moments that seem like inconsistency, but I also know that her senses are so much more refined than mine. She sees and smells and hears things that I cannot. Maturity and training will help your pup learn what is an appropriate response to that stimuli. We take Sasha everywhere. She travels with us, shops with us…she even has buddies at our church office she visits. She is on a first name basis at TSC and the wholesale warehouse we frequent. We use a prong collar everywhere. Like @Ravenbird ’s pup, our girl pulls like a mule. At 68 lbs she is very strong. There are off leash times that she heels with her head attached to my left thigh like glue, but on leash she pulls without the prong. Perhaps that makes us terrible trainers, BUT that is how it is. The prong protects HER. It keeps her from heading into traffic, or taking after the big bearded guy she doesn’t like, or from knocking over the child she wants to play with. The prong provides a measurable consistency in a very inconsistent world…and allows my arthritic knees protection. We won’t stop working on a consistent heel, but in the meantime I will do what works for the safety of my individual and unique pup.

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