Doberman Feet

[Cferg]

I know the standard calls for tight “cat like” feet for a Doberman. But a lot of the working line dogs have looser toes as far as I can tell. I figured this was for more articulation of the toes. Helping with athleticism overall.
But I was reading a discussion on GSD’S someone was asking for an evaluation of a WL dog. And someone said pass on the dog because of the loose “hare feet”. Is it the depth of the breeding pool of shepherds that they can breed for working attributes and conformation?
I figured a super tight paw would hinder agility for a dog?

 

[Ravenbird]

I have wondered about this a lot too. I've been following some conformation stuff and I think when people get stuck on something they always get into more/bigger must be better and it's simply not.

I don't like toes to look weak or splayed whether it's a hare foot or a cat foot, it's just weak-looking for function. So I think you have to look at the whole foot and up the pastern. If the toes are "loose" but the pastern is upright and the leg looks strong I wouldn't hold too much against it. If the toes are loose and the pastern is down or weak I'd dismiss considering that dog for athletic ability.

But I also think that some of the show Dobes feet have gotten to the point where they look like boxes on the end of their legs, because they want a big tight cat foot. I don't know what GSDs are looking for. Cat feet are said to be more for endurance and hare feet for speed. Greyhound feet are spectacular but you have to look at NGA Greyhounds to see what I'm talking about. AKC Greyhounds aren't the same.

My biggest gripe about conformation is that someone has an idea of what they want to see and they get more and more of that without actually testing the dogs athletically (speaking of working breeds here) to see if what they are doing is improving the dog!

Good topic!

 

[Cferg]

I understand that humans are bi•pedal and also I am not a pediatrist. But with humans the ability to splay your toes and independently articulate them. Is a sign of foot strength and dexterity. So I would think there would be some correlation. And that having an extremely tight paw would impact the dog’s ability to climb, change direction, balance on objects and all sorts of athletic movements.

 

[JanS]

I like the nice tight paws but I don't think every breed calls for it, depending on what they're bred for. I hang out with a lot of GSD's and I've never seen the cat paws like I do in this breed and Boxers.

 

[Rits]

They should be tight but not so tight that they look like they are standing on stilettos or boxes. Too tight would allow very little shock absorption. Same with pastern length and upright pasterns. The pastern's should be short and have a slight angle. Too upright they can't flex and absorb the shock of the dog's weight. Hare feet are for speed! Having a cat paw allows nimble ability, like a cat! Ever see a cat tight walk the top of a fence?

 

[Ravenbird]

And that having an extremely tight paw would impact the dog’s ability to climb, change direction, balance on objects and all sorts of athletic movements.

To a certain degree, yes. But think of an actual cat that these feet are named after. They never have splayed toes and they do everything you just listed better than any dog. But probably 90% of cats you see are not from breeders, just "cats", fittest survive and all that. But I am seeing over-done things in lots of breeds in conformation photos and some of the large box cat feet in some dog breeds *to me* looks exaggerated to a fault.

Did the GSD conversation show photos? If so, can you lift them and share? I did look up GSD feet on standards and there is not a foot type (cat & hare feet will be listed for some breeds specifically), just "The feet are short, compact with toes well arched, pads thick and firm, nails short and dark". An SV working GSD test includes a 12 mile endurance test in less than 2 hours. The conformation is bound to rear its head when the true test of form to function is presented. So if the potential puppy was rather splay-toed or flat footed and they wanted to pass SV for breeding, yeah, pass.

Hare feet are not always loose, by the way. I was around some NGA Greyhounds for several years, and they were awesome. I also had the pleasure of knowing a show bred Borzoi, who had Hare feet, but not the beautiful tightness of the NGA hounds. When they bred for heads and hair the prey drive and athletic ability went out the window. He was a wonderful dog, but pretty much yard art compared to his distant relatives. (Not referring to greyhounds, just the Borzoi that use to take down wolves). I'm really a staunch believer in "pretty is as pretty does".

 

[Ravenbird]

They should be tight but not so tight that they look like they are standing on stilettos or boxes

Exactly!

 

[Kswoodssue]

Sasha can reach her foot up, extend her claws, hook them around my cell phone and pull it out of my hand! She has also successfully opened our French doors by wrapping both paws around the door knob and turning it. She has let herself in 3 or 4 times that way! She wants hands!

 

[Oh Little Oji]

To my recollection, all the working Dobes that I've seen – at least the type I'm familiar with, that are built for speed and agility on the field – have had nice tight, well-arched paws. You want that for structural integrity. They seem to have plenty of grip.

As a related side note: I've seen the front dewclaws not only make contact with the ground during turns, but dig in.

 

[Cferg]

To a certain degree, yes. But think of an actual cat that these feet are named after. They never have splayed toes and they do everything you just listed better than any dog. But probably 90% of cats you see are not from breeders, just "cats", fittest survive and all that. But I am seeing over-done things in lots of breeds in conformation photos and some of the large box cat feet in some dog breeds *to me* looks exaggerated to a fault.

Did the GSD conversation show photos? If so, can you lift them and share? I did look up GSD feet on standards and there is not a foot type (cat & hare feet will be listed for some breeds specifically), just "The feet are short, compact with toes well arched, pads thick and firm, nails short and dark". An SV working GSD test includes a 12 mile endurance test in less than 2 hours. The conformation is bound to rear its head when the true test of form to function is presented. So if the potential puppy was rather splay-toed or flat footed and they wanted to pass SV for breeding, yeah, pass.

Hare feet are not always loose, by the way. I was around some NGA Greyhounds for several years, and they were awesome. I also had the pleasure of knowing a show bred Borzoi, who had Hare feet, but not the beautiful tightness of the NGA hounds. When they bred for heads and hair the prey drive and athletic ability went out the window. He was a wonderful dog, but pretty much yard art compared to his distant relatives. (Not referring to greyhounds, just the Borzoi that use to take down wolves). I'm really a staunch believer in "pretty is as pretty does".

Hers the GSD’s they were discussing. I agree especially for being in a stack neither looks good.

 

[Cferg]

This is from the AKC site

This is a landgraf dog. I know she isn’t stacked, but you can tell with out a doubt her feet aren’t even in the same ballpark as the show dog. The stacked dogs toe to the first joint is almost 90 degrees to the ground.

 

[Rits]

View attachment 136260
This is from the AKC site
View attachment 136261
This is a landgraf dog. I know she isn’t stacked, but you can tell with out a doubt her feet aren’t even in the same ballpark as the show dog. The stacked dogs toe to the first joint is almost 90 degrees to the ground.

The stacked dog isn't the best representation of the breed, even though it is on the AKC site. I personally think this dog is on the verge of too tight, I would not want the foot any tighter than this. Nail length plays a huge part in foot shape and stance too. I bet if the landgraf dog had shorter nails, and if we had the same angle photo, they would appear different and are within standard. I've seen the difference myself when I let my girl go slightly longer between shows for agility (by longer I go from dremeling every 3 days to once a week...still no touching).


"The pasterns should be short and firm. Note that the standard calls for the pastern to be “almost” perpendicular to the ground. A pastern that appears upright but has a very slight angle absorbs the impact of each foot fall when the dog is in motion. A pastern that is too upright is unable to flex and cannot absorb the shock of the dog’s weight landing on the front.

The feet are well arched, compact and catlike, and the toes are short, well arched and tight. A Doberman should not turn his feet in or out when standing or moving."

 

[Ravenbird]

The stacked dog isn't the best representation of the breed

What I think is so weird is the toenails at ground level. I'd have to go look at more pictures.

I bet if the landgraf dog had shorter nails, and if we had the same angle photo, they would appear different and are within standard.

Totally agree.

 

[Rits]

What I think is so weird is the toenails at ground level. I'd have to go look at more pictures.

I think it's because they are extremely short. If the dog flexed it's foot like it would when gaiting, the middle toes would extend and the nails would show more and be a little longer. A lot like a cat If the nails weren't trimmed short, the foot would be rocked back some and the foot a little flatter appearing to try and alleviate the pressure of the nails into the ground. I tried to find a picture of Ripley with her nails trimmed short and not trimmed short but wasn't successful.

 

[Doberman Gang]

Blaze’s feet are tight but Donau slightly running and jumping. Working breed should not be splayed

 

[Ravenbird]

I think it's because they are extremely short.

I think I just figured out what looks strange - I can't see a pad! Ashas pads are huge and her nails are set higher because of the pad. I'll get pictures up later.

 

[Ravenbird]

Blaze’s feet

Great photo for reference!

 

[Rits]

I think I just figured out what looks strange - I can't see a pad! Ashas pads are huge and her nails are set higher because of the pad. I'll get pictures up later.

Oh yeah! That does look strange now that you say it. It looks in a way that they were accidentally photoshopped/cropped off.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Oh yeah! That does look strange now that you say it. It looks in a way that they were accidentally photoshopped/cropped off.

I was thinking the Dobe might've been standing on a surface that was sort of a cushion, or the pic might've been altered.

 

[Ravenbird]

Here's Ashas and how her pads lift so they don't look like the one in the AKC picture. Someone did a terrible job cutting & pasting that dog to a white background, or it's a terrible foot. Either way it's really hard to look at!

I think Asha has a pretty foot, but it tends not be very tight and when she was a puppy her pads / feet were so big it was the opposite of looking at the AKC picture above. I have always thought her feet were a bit too big for the rest of her, but she has no trouble with being athletic: jumping, turning, running (25 mph Fast Cat average) so I no longer worry about it.