HELP! 18MO male training

[Dagobert]

After browsing this forum multiple times, I’ve decided to get personalized feedback for my male.

He’s been an angel pretty much his whole life. We socialized him early and often and his breeder has many pets/kids/dogs in the house, so that helped.

We have been training him in group classes since he was around 4 months old. Earning his CGC when he was 11 months.

Afterwards, we’ve been taking him to service dog group classes. He did okay albeit me luring him with his favorite ball for the most part.

Still, after all his training he is unable to walk loose leash by my side. I’m worried it’s his “guard/watch dog” instincts. We had him on a prong since maybe 6 months, and we would give a correction (tight at the top of his neck, even though his pencil neck always made it slide down several times during walks). We even taught him what “back” means. Still, it was 1. Walk in front of 2. Tell him to go back 3. Walk in front again 4. Collar correction, repeat OVER and OVER again.

We took him to an obedience trainer who said 1) pops need to be harder and multiple if he does not respect them and 2) walk against walls.

Since about 3 months now, we’ve started working with a service dog trainer in group classes and my boy cannot focus. We also got rid of the prong and switched to a flat collar. Working on “settle” and “steady” and to keep/stay in any command given to him.

He’s so sweet and gets so overexcited to see other people and dogs (and sniff and mark). He’s still intact, but I guess I have this vision of making him a perfect public access dog - intact. If champion dogs can behave while being around females in heat, why can’t he?


Yes, he gets exercise but I was advised not to go everyday - as not to train an Olympic athlete…


Also, his whining for attention or in the trunk is unbearable. We ignore, we verbally correct, we give the quiet command, we praise.

He’s also recently learned to howl if there’s strange noises around the house/yard?

The issue that I cannot seem to train out of him is #1 walking properly next to me #2 whining #3 overexcitement #4 watch dog instincts.

Can someone please help? No trainers in our area are experts on Dobermans, let alone public access Dobermans.

 

[Ravenbird]

LOL, sounds familiar. What type of Doberman does your breeder specialize in? If it's working lines or Euro show/pet, they will have a bit of toughness and hyper vigilance that just needs tons of training and persistence. Firm but fair, and boundaries set in place by you. This type of personality can be managed, but in general is not favorable for a service dog that works in public, depending on what you want him to do for you.

Since about 3 months now, we’ve started working with a service dog trainer in group classes and my boy cannot focus. We also got rid of the prong and switched to a flat collar. Working on “settle” and “steady” and to keep/stay in any command given to him.

When he "cannot focus" on you, what is he doing? What are you doing to correct it? Is he better with the prong collar or the flat collar? Use what works, not what he needs to be seen in.

He’s so sweet and gets so overexcited to see other people and dogs (and sniff and mark)

He will sniff and mark whether intact or neutered. This is a DOG behavior that is up to you to correct. As long as you let him, he will sniff and mark. Now that he's had 18 months of practice it will be harder to fix than if you'd started at 6 months. When you go to a class or anywhere for that matter, you get out of the car, go to an appropriate place and let him pee, actually empty his bladder. then go to into your class and at the first sign of sniffing get his head up and tell him NO. 99% of marking will start with a sniff, a step forward and a leg lift. STOP it at the sniff. Don't allow it, period. This behavior is 100% on you. He only does it because you've allowed him to.

Also, his whining for attention or in the trunk is unbearable. We ignore, we verbally correct, we give the quiet command, we praise.

I have no answers for whining. It didn't use to exist in the breed. What you are doing is about all you can do. It's like they don't even know they're doing it. The howling at strange noises? Is it an alert like barking or howling like fearful? Not sure what reaction he's having without more description on that!

The issue that I cannot seem to train out of him is #1 walking properly next to me #2 whining #3 overexcitement #4 watch dog instincts.

#1 tons more training - persist on the behavior you want, reward with food & play (a short session with tug or ball is a good release). Many short lessons throughout the day in different places: your living room, your yard, on a walk. Make a clear note to him when you expect him to be beside you on a loose leash and when he is on a "free sniff walk". If his eyes are open he is learning something from you!!!
#2 - no answers to whining, it does get better as they get older it seems. It's genetic.
#3 - overexcitement - tons more training. Any dogs and especially service dogs need to know that other people and other dogs are to be ignored. No reason to bark at them, or jump on them and lick them. Totally neutral. You don't want him to go up and lick people? Don't allow it. You have the leash. Just say no. Tell people my mantra: No Touch, No Talk, No Eye Contact. Make them understand your dog is not for them to pet, talk to or even look at. Again, this is on you. He won't change on his own.
#4 - watch dog instincts. Genetics, you got a Doberman! There is a reason Golden Retrievers make a better public service dog.

Hope this helps. I don't know where you are, but a good trainer who knows working breeds would be your best bet, but you say there are none close by. Best of luck - and if you get a minute show us a photo of your lovely beast!

 

[Kswoodssue]

Our girl, Sasha, is 17 months and she is very like your boy. We passed the Star class early on, but we have not yet returned for her CGC because our trainer would not pass a dog that cannot loose leash walk on a flat collar or remain quietly seated for a polite greeting. Without those basics, I know we could not be in the class you are in now. Sasha adores people, and loves attention and being petted. She will sit for greeting, but invariably stands. We are continually working on it. She is, however, very vigilant on leash in public. She wants to pull ahead, and walks/scans left, right, and ducks under the leash for a full turn to scan behind her. She repeats this over and over. I believe it is vigilance, nervous energy, and habit. If I hold her prong closely, she calmly walks beside me. She also walks at a heal off leash inside our home and is often glued to my left hip. All of this considered, I know that everything @Ravenbird said is absolutely true. It is difficult though. People love petting a Doberman. Everyone that sees her says she is beautiful. It is fun. It, on the surface, feels wrong to withhold this public adoration from her, BUT I believe that this attention seeking behavior in public is as much a coping mechanism for them as is the behavior of the growling, reactive behavior of others. It is the calm, secure dog that walks closely beside his owner/pack leader. He doesn’t consider other dogs or people, because his world is safe with his leader. All that considered, that is why @Ravenbird is right. The class has to be great exposure for him. It just sounds like you were placed there before he was ready. As for marking?…noooooo! Good luck!

 

[Rits]

Besides the advice already given...I'm honestly surprised this service dog trainer cannot help you get a good heel. Do you need public access with him? Not every dog is cut out to be a service dog. It takes the right kind of dog and a lot of obedience work.

 

[Kaiser2016]

#2 - no answers to whining

Yep, the whine is there for life

#4 - watch dog instincts. Genetics, you got a Doberman!

Their instincts and vigilance get stronger over time. With a male in particular, it does take them longer to mature. I would encourage you to try keeping him intact. It's fairly easy with a male, knock on wood, plus it all makes for an impressive sight - whether you see Kaiser coming or going, he is large and in charge!

 

[Dagobert]

When he "cannot focus" on you, what is he doing? What are you doing to correct it? Is he better with the prong collar or the flat collar? Use what works, not what he needs to be seen in.

During classes he may just blow me off, run towards the end of the leash, whine, or sniff really intensely & throw his weight against the leash.

I used to move my positioning to grab his attention or walk the other way. Now we either wait it out until he obeys the command or give a verbal correction if it's a clear NO.

He will sniff and mark whether intact or neutered. This is a DOG behavior that is up to you to correct. As long as you let him, he will sniff and mark. Now that he's had 18 months of practice it will be harder to fix than if you'd started at 6 months. When you go to a class or anywhere for that matter, you get out of the car, go to an appropriate place and let him pee, actually empty his bladder. then go to into your class and at the first sign of sniffing get his head up and tell him NO. 99% of marking will start with a sniff, a step forward and a leg lift. STOP it at the sniff. Don't allow it, period. This behavior is 100% on you. He only does it because you've allowed him to.

Yes, 100%. The marking is just really an "issue" if he's off leash. Other than that we have him under control. He's so smart though that he will conserve his pee in public if I give him a go-potty command, and refuse to empty the tank. We're so torn on neutering, but I think the total lack of attention/mental control due to a intriguing sniff to the point where we can't train anymore has been tipping the scale. I also have read numerous times though that it's typically always a "training problem".

I have no answers for whining. It didn't use to exist in the breed. What you are doing is about all you can do. It's like they don't even know they're doing it. The howling at strange noises? Is it an alert like barking or howling like fearful? Not sure what reaction he's having without more description on that!

Alert barks/growl are inside (which is fine) with the occasional fearful howl, but in the yard it's mainly a howl. I don't understand how to desensitize him to this at this point; we spent so much time socializing him. Like @Kswoodssue said, maybe he doesn't respect me as pack leader?

#1 tons more training - persist on the behavior you want, reward with food & play (a short session with tug or ball is a good release). Many short lessons throughout the day in different places: your living room, your yard, on a walk. Make a clear note to him when you expect him to be beside you on a loose leash and when he is on a "free sniff walk". If his eyes are open he is learning something from you!!!

Do you mind sharing a bit of your experience with the free sniff walk? We used to let him sniff on command on walks, but it turned into him trying to go sniff everything even without the command just to test us. These breeds are so incredibly smart. One slip up on my consistency and he will find it and take advantage of it.

 

[Ravenbird]

During classes he may just blow me off, run towards the end of the leash, whine, or sniff really intensely & throw his weight against the leash.

I used to move my positioning to grab his attention or walk the other way. Now we either wait it out until he obeys the command or give a verbal correction if it's a clear NO.

All those behaviors you listed are a clear "No" to me. When mine was a puppy (very much like yours in personality, if not worse) I was told to do the walk the other way, wait it out etc. and all that did was make her think EVERYthing got to be her idea. I don't know about your boy, but my dog HAD to be told what to do, given very clear boundaries of what was OK and what was not, or else she just ruled the situation in about 10 seconds. She had no cares, and would run over the top of any corrections until I made it very very clear. Altho it was not a declared pure positive class, the instructor did kinda clutch her pearls when I corrected my then 5-mo. old puppy, so I tried to do it her way for way too long. To this day I think it was what made the next 1 1/2 years way harder than it needed to be for both of us. I'm ALL for positive reinforcement and for training with food, for praise when the right behavior happens. I'm not a meanie! But some of these harder edged Dobies, you give an inch and they take a mile. They are smart. Once you make sure they understand that throwing his weight on the leash to go sniff something by using a strong correction - not nagging, I mean something that makes him go "oh sh!t, I think I've made her mad". You don't ask him to do anything, you tell him and then back it up. He will only get bigger and stronger mentally and physically from today forward.

The marking is just really an "issue" if he's off leash. Other than that we have him under control. He's so smart though that he will conserve his pee in public if I give him a go-potty command, and refuse to empty the tank. We're so torn on neutering, but I think the total lack of attention/mental control due to a intriguing sniff to the point where we can't train anymore has been tipping the scale. I also have read numerous times though that it's typically always a "training problem".

Marking is 100% training problem, it has nothing to do with having to pee. He saves it up to mark on 50 things. If you are going into your class and you go to the potty station outside and give him lots of time and he still doesn't relieve himself, go to your class, or wherever you need him not to sniff & mark and don't take your eyes off of his head. When he goes to sniff, pop the leash & say no. If you are standing with him at your side have him sit or down. If you are doing any off leash training ask if you can use a 25 foot long line, and again, if his nose goes into critter mode (sniffing anything) pick up the line and say NO. The biggest thing about marking is that you have to make him understand that it's not allowed. Again, clear boundaries of what your rules are and then enforce them. And I promise, if he's really persistent about marking now, neutering will probably not help much at all.

Alert barks/growl are inside (which is fine) with the occasional fearful howl, but in the yard it's mainly a howl. I don't understand how to desensitize him to this at this point; we spent so much time socializing him. Like @Kswoodssue said, maybe he doesn't respect me as pack leader?

I'm not experienced with a dog howling in fear. Is he wanting back in the house? Is he cowering and afraid of something in particular or is he just at the door howling. My dog does whine when I don't let her in for some reason and if I have left her out for a reason (rolling in the dirt) I just say NO and she's come to understand that yes I heard her request and the answer is no. She'll quit vocalizing for at least 15 - 20 minutes before she vocalizes again. It doesn't really sound typical of a Doberman to howl in fear of something, so I'm not sure what to tell you. If he does this when you leave the house for a while then I'd say he just doesn't want to be left outside. What do you think is triggering the howls?

Do you mind sharing a bit of your experience with the free sniff walk?

I do off leash hikes in the forest and as long as she doesn't stay out of sight of me for more than a minute or two she can do anything she pleases. That's the ultimate sniff walk. And yes she is a she and yes, she marks where coyotes have been.
In town on leash if we are on a dirt path or grass I have her pee before we get started, then let her sniff anything that she can sniff & pick her head up and keep going without making me stop. She can hold her pee for 8 - 10 hours overnight she can hold it for an hour on a walk. So free to sniff for her doesn't mean stopping every 2 minutes and spending time circling, it just means not heeling and not focused on me, she is free to do doggy things as we walk. A friend of mine always had intact male dogs all her life and when she would walk, she'd have the dog pee as they left their yard and walk an hour and not allow the dog to sniff or to mark. Period. Ever. (while on leash walks). She started that when they were puppies so it was way easier than having to fix it later. But again, we were outdoors enthusiasts and did tons of off leash hikes and the dogs were always free to do whatever they wanted, including marking 100 times.

These breeds are so incredibly smart. One slip up on my consistency and he will find it and take advantage of it.

This knowledge is all you need to know to train your Dobe. Persistent and Consistent, Firm but Fair.

Keep coming back and asking questions, and let us know about your progress.

 

[Kswoodssue]

I had to laugh concerning the howling. Sasha started with that while we were working on long downs during meals. She hates it, but is physically complying. Mentally is another story. She will roll to her side, kick around, whine and howl, then lay still. For us, the howl is a frustrated mini temper tantrum!

 

[Doberman Gang]

I didn’t read all of the other responses doing this was addressed I apologize in advance for repeating.
1- Why do you want him to walk at your side? Heeling is an obedience exercise when you want attention and being in position by your side. Going for a walk should be for both of you to get some exercise and enjoy being outside together. I walk me dogs on a flexy leash, they are allowed to wander around sniff and pee on things and enjoy themselves. The only rule is no pulling on the leash and coming when I call.
2- the whining most likely is a genetic thing passed down from his lineage, so you might have to get used to it or correct it to see if that helps.
3-I actually train for over excitement or what I call drive and then use it in training to get more attention or to train my dogs in how to cap themselves in that state.
4- watch dog instincts, this is most likely going to be genetics again but without specific training the most you might get us a dog that barks and scares someone away.

Last if you socialized him in the wrong way when he was young the excitement to see people and other dogs has now been reinforced and will be harder to correct. Socializing is being with you in public with other people and dogs around, but not the need to meet or play with those things. My training is playing with me while ignoring outside stimuli, that is where most people make the mistake with their puppies.

 

[Ravenbird]

For us, the howl is a frustrated mini temper tantrum!

The only time I heard Asha howl is when she was much younger, I didn't trust her in the house alone yet, beautiful day so instead of crating her I put her in the yard with a bone while we went across the road to the neighbors for happy hour. Out of sight but we were outside at their place and Asha could hear us talking and laughing and within the hour I could hear her yipping and howling. Temper tantrum vocalizing.

 

[Cranekc35]

After browsing this forum multiple times, I’ve decided to get personalized feedback for my male.

He’s been an angel pretty much his whole life. We socialized him early and often and his breeder has many pets/kids/dogs in the house, so that helped.

We have been training him in group classes since he was around 4 months old. Earning his CGC when he was 11 months.

Afterwards, we’ve been taking him to service dog group classes. He did okay albeit me luring him with his favorite ball for the most part.

Still, after all his training he is unable to walk loose leash by my side. I’m worried it’s his “guard/watch dog” instincts. We had him on a prong since maybe 6 months, and we would give a correction (tight at the top of his neck, even though his pencil neck always made it slide down several times during walks). We even taught him what “back” means. Still, it was 1. Walk in front of 2. Tell him to go back 3. Walk in front again 4. Collar correction, repeat OVER and OVER again.

We took him to an obedience trainer who said 1) pops need to be harder and multiple if he does not respect them and 2) walk against walls.

Since about 3 months now, we’ve started working with a service dog trainer in group classes and my boy cannot focus. We also got rid of the prong and switched to a flat collar. Working on “settle” and “steady” and to keep/stay in any command given to him.

He’s so sweet and gets so overexcited to see other people and dogs (and sniff and mark). He’s still intact, but I guess I have this vision of making him a perfect public access dog - intact. If champion dogs can behave while being around females in heat, why can’t he?


Yes, he gets exercise but I was advised not to go everyday - as not to train an Olympic athlete…


Also, his whining for attention or in the trunk is unbearable. We ignore, we verbally correct, we give the quiet command, we praise.

He’s also recently learned to howl if there’s strange noises around the house/yard?

The issue that I cannot seem to train out of him is #1 walking properly next to me #2 whining #3 overexcitement #4 watch dog instincts.

Can someone please help? No trainers in our area are experts on Dobermans, let alone public access Dobermans.

Start focus exercises with him daily. In the home or in back yard - hold a treat in both hands, hold in fists and raise your arms parallel with your shoulders while you have your dog in a sit position in front of you while you stand. Start teaching the "look at me" command. When he is looking at you and not your hands, mark it with a "yes" and reward. I also started moving one hand by his face as a distraction and if he kept looking at me, then I would mark and reward. I do that every day with my boy. Now, outside with distractions - dogs, people, etc. I will stand there and wait until he looks at me...then I mark and reward. Or if too intense, I will start walking in the other direction. Anytime, my boy is intensely looking at me - I would reward with a "good look Prince!". I randomly do it now so he's not continually looking for a treat, but at the beginning - you need to pay them and reinforce that good behavior. He needs to know that good things come from you when he does the right thing. Focusing on you is so important.

Also, you need to be more fun than anything else around them. Keep a tug toy on you and pull it out to play with him during the distractions or pull out some treats and do some fun tricks with him. The more you engage with him, nothing else will matter.

Yes, he gets exercise but I was advised not to go everyday - as not to train an Olympic athlete… He is young and still needs some type of exercise daily. That is where the whining is coming from. He is looking for an outlet. I think the advice given was not to go overboard physically with him because you will build his endurance. These pups can go all day if you let them. You still need to work him physically and mentally every day, but find the balance. Remember, mental stimulation is way more exhausting than physical. How much mental is he getting? Impulse control training, chewing, licking, puzzles, nose work, learning new trick, etc. My boy whined some when he was a puppy, but once I learned what he needed, he hasn't whined since. Have you tried a flirt pole? You can incorporate training (mental) while playing with the flirt pole (physical). This will exhaust him too. One of my favorite commands that I taught Prince was "wait". Any time, he demands my attention or looking for something to do next, I tell him to "wait." He will either stand there waiting patiently or go to his "place" and wait. They need to have an off switch when you need them to settle.

Start this "sit on the dog" exercise with him. Do it once or twice a day. This is the best thing I ever did for Prince. Advice from another Dobie owner. He will learn to settle by you regardless of what is going on around him.

The Sit on the Dog Exercise • Canine Life Skills

The Sit on the Dog exercise is the best dog training lesson you can do at home to improve your bond and create a calmer dog.

caninelifeskills.com

Hand feed his meals during training sessions instead of treats. This will build a better bond increasing the focus on you. Keep all of his toys up and only bring out what you him to play with and when. Put them up once done playing. He needs to understand that EVERYTHING comes from you....food, treats, toys, fun, etc... Also, read up on NILF - Nothing in life is free. Make sure that he is working for everything. That gives him a job and sense of purpose.

Check out Dobercademy on Facebook, YouTube or Instagram. This lady is amazing with Dobermans and has free videos on training them. I wish I would have known about her when my boy was little. She also does virtual training and prices are reasonable.

Best of luck to you and hope some of this helps!

 

[Ravenbird]

^^^ those are some great detailed instructions for building focus and bonding ^^^

 

[Kaiser2016]

My dog does whine when I don't let her in for some reason and if I have left her out for a reason

Kaiser will sit at the door and look longingly at it and then he’ll lose patience if he doesn’t hear you coming. It starts with a whine and then escalates to howling. When he’s feeling like a boss he’ll just stand at the door and give one demand bark

yes I heard her request and the answer is no.

just imagine their thoughts: “No? What do you mean no!?”

She'll quit vocalizing for at least 15 - 20 minutes before she vocalizes again.

15 minutes is the limit for Kaiser too.

One of my favorite commands that I taught Prince was "wait".

When I tell Kaiser to wait, he will, but he always gives an annoyed sigh in response

 

[Ravenbird]

@Kaiser2016 it's always refreshing to see your humor. I need to lighten up a little myself.

 

[Gelcoater]

Can someone please help? No trainers in our area are experts on Dobermans,

Your profile says So Cal
If you are anywhere around the high desert/Phelan area, I know someone who can help.

 

[WANTED]

After browsing this forum multiple times, I’ve decided to get personalized feedback for my male.

He’s been an angel pretty much his whole life. We socialized him early and often and his breeder has many pets/kids/dogs in the house, so that helped.

We have been training him in group classes since he was around 4 months old. Earning his CGC when he was 11 months.

Afterwards, we’ve been taking him to service dog group classes. He did okay albeit me luring him with his favorite ball for the most part.

Still, after all his training he is unable to walk loose leash by my side. I’m worried it’s his “guard/watch dog” instincts. We had him on a prong since maybe 6 months, and we would give a correction (tight at the top of his neck, even though his pencil neck always made it slide down several times during walks). We even taught him what “back” means. Still, it was 1. Walk in front of 2. Tell him to go back 3. Walk in front again 4. Collar correction, repeat OVER and OVER again.

We took him to an obedience trainer who said 1) pops need to be harder and multiple if he does not respect them and 2) walk against walls.

Since about 3 months now, we’ve started working with a service dog trainer in group classes and my boy cannot focus. We also got rid of the prong and switched to a flat collar. Working on “settle” and “steady” and to keep/stay in any command given to him.

He’s so sweet and gets so overexcited to see other people and dogs (and sniff and mark). He’s still intact, but I guess I have this vision of making him a perfect public access dog - intact. If champion dogs can behave while being around females in heat, why can’t he?


Yes, he gets exercise but I was advised not to go everyday - as not to train an Olympic athlete…


Also, his whining for attention or in the trunk is unbearable. We ignore, we verbally correct, we give the quiet command, we praise.

He’s also recently learned to howl if there’s strange noises around the house/yard?

The issue that I cannot seem to train out of him is #1 walking properly next to me #2 whining #3 overexcitement #4 watch dog instincts.

Can someone please help? No trainers in our area are experts on Dobermans, let alone public access Dobermans.

I agree not every dog is gr8 for every task, just like people. Some trainers will take a few dogs from a litter and after a cpl of months return or sell the dogs that are not cut out for their specific type of training ie protection.

 

[Two Dobes]

Altho it was not a declared pure positive class, the instructor did kinda clutch her pearls when I corrected my then 5-mo. old puppy, so I tried to do it her way for way too long. To this day I think it was what made the next 1 1/2 years way harder than it needed to be for both of us. I'm ALL for positive reinforcement and for training with food, for praise when the right behavior happens. I'm not a meanie! But some of these harder edged Dobies, you give an inch and they take a mile. They are smart.

AGREE....I had the same experience years ago with an 8 month old male dobe who was reactive. He was 'allowed' to lunge and bark in the class, and be rewarded for turning to focus on me AFTER the fact. It took a LONG time to undo that! My boy was harder as you said. Next trainer taught me about the prong, and after much training, I was able to get a CD in obedience on him

 

[Cferg]

AGREE....I had the same experience years ago with an 8 month old male dobe who was reactive. He was 'allowed' to lunge and bark in the class, and be rewarded for turning to focus on me AFTER the fact. It took a LONG time to undo that! My boy was harder as you said. Next trainer taught me about the prong, and after much training, I was able to get a CD in obedience on him

My biggest breakthrough came not from a prong. But from a piece of advice to “make the correction very personal to the dog”.

My dog can eat a very hard correction no problem. So a normal prong correction might keep her from blowing up. But a regular leash pop, with a whole bunch of spatial pressure and body language that says you better knock that s**t off. Actually changes what’s going on in her mind.

Now if I did this out in public even though I didn’t physically do anything bad to my dog. Most people would view it as more abusive than a yank and crank. That I’m “hurting” my dog’s feelings.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

Now if I did this out in public even though I didn’t physically do anything bad to my dog. Most people would view it as more abusive than a yank and crank. That I’m “hurting” my dog’s feelings.

Yep.

 

[Two Dobes]

Amen to that!