Antibiotic responsive diarrhea?

[Wonka]

Hello,
I’m new here and want to try my luck with maybe finding similar stories/(hopefully) solved issues.
Crowley is a 16 months old doberman that has been having issues with loose stool/full blown diarrhea since he was 5 months old. From 5 months till 10 months it was on and off (new food=good stool for 3 weeks). Since 10 months old till now it’s just on all the time. We did all the possible tests except for biopsy which will happen sometime this month. But my gut tells me that we will get the same result as all previous tests (everything looks great).

He was diagnosed with sibo/ard. From vet to vet after constant tests and thousands of $$ the same response but with minimal result.

We tried all kinds of food except grain free, limited ingredient (vet said to wait) and raw (not recommended for Crowley because of bacterial issues).

The best result we got was with tylosin 500 mg twice a day+Hills biome gastrointestinal+ pancreved (he does not have issues with pancreas) + hydrolyzed hills treats + carrots/green beans/snap peas as treats.
Then switched to tylosin 500 mg once a day, removed pancreved (everything else was the same.
Next switch was to 400 mg tylosin a day with everything else same. And got stuck there.

Probiotics work terribly for Crowley (he has bad reaction even though still on tylosin)

Right now we are trying to minimize prescription food and possibly switch completely to normal one. Prescription food is fine with me but it’s getting harder and harder to get it. We are slowly introducing new treats (freeze dried one ingredient treats) stool is not good again. Now he doesn’t get excited about food at all which is worrisome because it was never a problem whatever the food he got, in the mornings i have to talk him into eating at all.

We tried feeding less, feeding more, feeding small portions, kefir, coconut oil, berneys perfect poop, turmeric supplements, goats milk, different probiotics, cbd oil, feeding moist food, feeding dry food, from the bowl, from the mat, by hand, anything friends, internet, vets recommended to try.

All blood, stool, ultra sound tests show that everything looks and works perfectly and I’m just lost. I do not know what else i can do..

Crowley is a happy boy but i know he is uncomfortable with how his stomach feels, constant sounds like there is a war going on, being gassy and soft stool. No vomiting though. Ever. Plus I don’t want him to be n tylosin forever it can’t be good or he can build up a tolerance for it and then what..


So if anyone had a similar experience please share what worked or didn’t work for you

Adding pictures of my boy as a sorry for a very long and probably confusing post
Thank you

 

[Ravenbird]

We tried all kinds of food except grain free, limited ingredient (vet said to wait) and raw (not recommended for Crowley because of bacterial issues).

I'm no expert, and don't know how long he's been on antibiotics, but antibiotics continued for a long time can be disaster for the gut. Especially without countering with probiotics. I think @Rits once posted a good probiotic / prebiotic supplement. Also, I don't know what is sibo/ard that he was diagnosed with? was that a typo, sorry I can't figure that out.

Why would the vet say to wait on limited ingredient food? I would think that would be the fastest way to see what definitely disagreed with him, but at this point with the antibiotics wrecking his gut system (it kills ALL the bacteria, and it takes good bacteria to digest food properly!!!) I imagine nothing will agree with him. If there's not a bacterial infection, why prescribe an antibiotic?

If your dog is healthy and happy in all other ways, I'd start on my own journey without the vet. No antibiotics, mild food for a week, like boiled chicken and cooked rice with the broth that the chicken was cooked in. (((Buy whole chickens, boil in a pot, de-bone, package the meat & freeze in meal size baggies, cook the bones for another 24 - 48 hours to make a good bone broth. No salt.))) Give his guts time to heal and introduce a probiotic to encourage the return of his natural good bacteria. Only then can you try to introduce other foods. Raw is the very best food for dogs but it's expensive and if they don't have their natural bacteria to break it down that may not work well for him right now. Raw will most definitely make smaller dryer poops. I'm not a vet, I'm just saying what I would do. More people will hopefully chime in to give you more ideas.

Best of luck and keep us posted how he does - he looks like an amazing sweet boy, I'm glad you shared pictures!

 

[Wonka]

I'm no expert, and don't know how long he's been on antibiotics, but antibiotics continued for a long time can be disaster for the gut. Especially without countering with probiotics. I think @Rits once posted a good probiotic / prebiotic supplement. Also, I don't know what is sibo/ard that he was diagnosed with? was that a typo, sorry I can't figure that out.

Why would the vet say to wait on limited ingredient food? I would think that would be the fastest way to see what definitely disagreed with him, but at this point with the antibiotics wrecking his gut system (it kills ALL the bacteria, and it takes good bacteria to digest food properly!!!) I imagine nothing will agree with him. If there's not a bacterial infection, why prescribe an antibiotic?

If your dog is healthy and happy in all other ways, I'd start on my own journey without the vet. No antibiotics, mild food for a week, like boiled chicken and cooked rice with the broth that the chicken was cooked in. (((Buy whole chickens, boil in a pot, de-bone, package the meat & freeze in meal size baggies, cook the bones for another 24 - 48 hours to make a good bone broth. No salt.))) Give his guts time to heal and introduce a probiotic to encourage the return of his natural good bacteria. Only then can you try to introduce other foods. Raw is the very best food for dogs but it's expensive and if they don't have their natural bacteria to break it down that may not work well for him right now. Raw will most definitely make smaller dryer poops. I'm not a vet, I'm just saying what I would do. More people will hopefully chime in to give you more ideas.

Best of luck and keep us posted how he does - he looks like an amazing sweet boy, I'm glad you shared pictures!

Hi!
Thanks for your response!
Sibo is small intestine bacterial overgrowth
And ard is antibiotic responsive diarrhea.
He can not be without an antibiotic. As soon as he is off the meds he has diarrhea.
He also reacts very bad to probiotics (we tried everything from kefir and goat milk to all kind of prescribed and non prescribed probiotics).
He has been on antibiotics about 9 months now and this is why i am concerned I can’t take him off because he would go back to diarrhea in a day. He also does terrible on chicken and rice. We tried diets with different ingredients but not limited. The only food that he was ok on is hills biome.
I can’t do raw food because he has bacterial overgrowth. Money wouldn’t bother me if he would be off the meds.
I hear from everywhere to treat any kind of dysbiosis with probiotics but for us probiotics=diarrhea=dehydration=death.

Also non of his littermates have any similar issues. The only other thing i can think of is that we are in Texas right now, everyone is allergic to everything here. He also does suffer from some kind of environmental allergy when it’s hot. We’re moving in 2 months so hopefully something will get fixed with the move

 

[Ravenbird]

OK, now that I got the disease down (I needed it as SIBO to register in my brain) - I'll put this short description here for others so we're all on the same page:

Malabsorption and Bacterial Overgrowth in Dogs | VCA Animal Hospitals

Learn all you need to know about malabsorption and bacterial overgrowth in dogs with VCA. Get expert advice from VCA to keep your pet healthy and happy.

vcahospitals.com

With this being the case, I would withdraw most of my statement, and I do so feel your pain - and your dog! - having to go through this. I would be most concerned about non-stop antibiotics. What does the vet say about that? Do you ever stop to see if there is improvement without them? Is your vet a specialist in this, or can they refer you to someone who has more experience? I'd think in San Antonio you are probably already dealing with the best. The article says this is hereditary much of the time, but you say non of the litter mates are affected, so is your only hope finding a cause that you can eliminate? Sounds like being between a rock & a hard place.

When you move, are you going to change climate? SA is hot & humid - I lived there for a while years ago. I'm now in New Mexico - high and dry, very little moisture with humidity usually below 25% and at 6,000 ft there are no fleas. The dogs love it, although the heat & sun can get intense. Hopefully you'll get more experienced answers on your problem - if something works please update us!

 

[strykerdobe]

Sorry to hear about Crowley.

As @Ravenbird mentioned try Bone Broth. It can help soothe the Gut lining.
You can make your own and lots of pet recipes online. Make sure it for pets. Because ones for humans they might add Onion. And that's a no-no for pets.
There are also premade Broths (Primal Pet foods and others) of different proteins.

Maybe contact AdoredBeast, Animal Biome and inform them what all was done.

Julie Anne Lee​

DCH RCSHom​

She might help.

Adored Beast Apothecary | Holistic Animal Healthcare Products

Premium natural animal health care products. Carefully handcrafted supplements to nurture and protect, made with only the purest, sustainably sourced ingredients.

adoredbeast.com

on her page there is a contact form.

Also, to determine exactly what types and how much of each of gut bacteria there is Animal Biome has a test kit. They are also very helpful.

AnimalBiome

Science for cats and dogs: Your companion’s health and happiness start with a balanced gut microbiome.

animalbiome.com

 

[Kaiser2016]

issues with loose stool/full blown diarrhea since he was 5 months old

This seems like a fairly common scenario. Lots of people come on around this age reporting tummy troubles. I usually recommend raw as that is what solved our Dobe's regular loose stools. The more I learned about kibble, the more convinced I was that the high protein content of kibble was the culprit, but Kaiser's poop situation became perfect nearly overnight with raw food, so I've just left him on that diet. I was also going to say that vets are often against raw because they're misinformed about salmonella/food poisoning (that risk is for humans, not the dogs!) but if he truly has SIBO, then I certainly won't suggest trying to go back to raw.

Also, to determine exactly what types and how much of each of gut bacteria there is Animal Biome has a test kit.

^This, however, is definitely a great idea. I didn't even know this existed, but you need to start to take matters into your own hands a little bit here. I feel like the never-ending antibiotics is a horrible 'solution' when the dog is so young. He looks adorable and happy in those pics so try to stay positive and hopefully this test will get you going in the right direction.

All blood, stool, ultra sound tests show that everything looks and works perfectly and I’m just lost. I do not know what else i can do..

I wonder if the biopsy is necessary. Have you heard of fecal transplants? At this age, and after all that money spent, I might just opt to go the distance with a fecal transplant. Healing Your Dog or Cat With a Fecal Transplant: What You Need to Know

 

[Wonka]

OK, now that I got the disease down (I needed it as SIBO to register in my brain) - I'll put this short description here for others so we're all on the same page:

Malabsorption and Bacterial Overgrowth in Dogs | VCA Animal Hospitals

Learn all you need to know about malabsorption and bacterial overgrowth in dogs with VCA. Get expert advice from VCA to keep your pet healthy and happy.

vcahospitals.com

With this being the case, I would withdraw most of my statement, and I do so feel your pain - and your dog! - having to go through this. I would be most concerned about non-stop antibiotics. What does the vet say about that? Do you ever stop to see if there is improvement without them? Is your vet a specialist in this, or can they refer you to someone who has more experience? I'd think in San Antonio you are probably already dealing with the best. The article says this is hereditary much of the time, but you say non of the litter mates are affected, so is your only hope finding a cause that you can eliminate? Sounds like being between a rock & a hard place.

When you move, are you going to change climate? SA is hot & humid - I lived there for a while years ago. I'm now in New Mexico - high and dry, very little moisture with humidity usually below 25% and at 6,000 ft there are no fleas. The dogs love it, although the heat & sun can get intense. Hopefully you'll get more experienced answers on your problem - if something works please update us!

So the vet says it’s okay to be on tylosin for a long time, but even then his stool is not always perfect, they say if it’s working don’t touch it basically but I’m not okay with this. It’s common knowledge it’s not okay to be on antibiotics for a long time plus he can build up resistance to them anytime and then what? That’s why i went on my own research and tried all those things i mentioned above. For the last week or two he doesn’t want to eat in the mornings at all, i have to talk him into in and feed piece by piece otherwise he throws up yellow bile.
We did try to stop tylosin multiple times but he goes back to diarrhea right away. One of the vets i see is a specialist, she is the owner of the clinic and kind of a b**** but i trust her because she doesn’t lie to me.
We are moving to Chicago area so i hope environmental allergies will just fall off.

 

[Wonka]

Sorry to hear about Crowley.

As @Ravenbird mentioned try Bone Broth. It can help soothe the Gut lining.
You can make your own and lots of pet recipes online. Make sure it for pets. Because ones for humans they might add Onion. And that's a no-no for pets.
There are also premade Broths (Primal Pet foods and others) of different proteins.

Maybe contact AdoredBeast, Animal Biome and inform them what all was done.

Julie Anne Lee​

DCH RCSHom​

She might help.

Adored Beast Apothecary | Holistic Animal Healthcare Products

Premium natural animal health care products. Carefully handcrafted supplements to nurture and protect, made with only the purest, sustainably sourced ingredients.

adoredbeast.com

on her page there is a contact form.

Also, to determine exactly what types and how much of each of gut bacteria there is Animal Biome has a test kit. They are also very helpful.

AnimalBiome

Science for cats and dogs: Your companion’s health and happiness start with a balanced gut microbiome.

animalbiome.com

This is very helpful I didn’t even het to think about different types of probiotics! I will definitely contact them and the test kit for bacteria too. I learned just to buy everything and try for couple weeks so i can rule out things that don’t work and never think about them again.
Thank you!

 

[Wonka]

This seems like a fairly common scenario. Lots of people come on around this age reporting tummy troubles. I usually recommend raw as that is what solved our Dobe's regular loose stools. The more I learned about kibble, the more convinced I was that the high protein content of kibble was the culprit, but Kaiser's poop situation became perfect nearly overnight with raw food, so I've just left him on that diet. I was also going to say that vets are often against raw because they're misinformed about salmonella/food poisoning (that risk is for humans, not the dogs!) but if he truly has SIBO, then I certainly won't suggest trying to go back to raw.


^This, however, is definitely a great idea. I didn't even know this existed, but you need to start to take matters into your own hands a little bit here. I feel like the never-ending antibiotics is a horrible 'solution' when the dog is so young. He looks adorable and happy in those pics so try to stay positive and hopefully this test will get you going in the right direction.

I wonder if the biopsy is necessary. Have you heard of fecal transplants? At this age, and after all that money spent, I might just opt to go the distance with a fecal transplant. Healing Your Dog or Cat With a Fecal Transplant: What You Need to Know

I’ve never heard about fecal transplant ever! But i will look into that too. Biopsy is needed in my personal opinion i just want some answers at least something and i hope i will get them.
My vets are not against raw food but they don’t recommend it for Crowley and I’m scared to try it to not mess him up more. I feel like every digestive problem goes back to dysbiosis which is connected to bacteria issues. But that’s just from what i read I’m in no way professional or have any vet med knowledge, all i can do is read the researches and everything myself.
But i will definitely look into all the new info i got. I’m just so frustrated because I can’t help him. I’m in touch with the breeder and she never had an issue like that or at least she says so. His dna tests are clean, no breed related issues, nothing.. I’m also hoping maybe he’s just allergic to Texas and the move will fix everything (i know its dumb but after so many things i tried that’s what I’m left with)

 

[strykerdobe]

You can also try not a totally raw diet but a lightly cooked diet.
One other thing I would not be getting are any vaccinations at all. Vaccinations are for Healthy Animals ONLY!

 

[Ravenbird]

But i will definitely look into all the new info i got. I’m just so frustrated because I can’t help him

I hope you stay in touch with us on this thread and let us know how things go, especially when finding things that work. Many times people come here with the same problems and find a thread that might be years old but contains just the right answers. Wishing you & your dog the best.

 

[strykerdobe]

This is very helpful I didn’t even het to think about different types of probiotics! I will definitely contact them and the test kit for bacteria too. I learned just to buy everything and try for couple weeks so i can rule out things that don’t work and never think about them again.
Thank you!

It might even take longer than a couple of weeks to change things. I would do a month or two.

And yes, keep in touch with updates.

 

[Wonka]

It might even take longer than a couple of weeks to change things. I would do a month or two.

And yes, keep in touch with updates.

Ok so i have a little update
I did contact animal biome and they were very helpful with my sutuation! So i am beyond grateful for you recommending it as nothing worked on him before at all

I did fill out questionnaire and they recommended a test plus gut restore kit, i ordered it and while talking to them they recommended S. Boulardii probiotic which i also ordered. At this point i just order/buy everything that is recommended because i want to get to the bottom of it.

So my thing is that Crowley is on Tylosin (antibiotic) if i take him off he has diarrhea by the night of the day I didn’t give him a pill, the only probiotic he tolerates is goat milk which i think helped a little bit but stool wasn’t perfect even on tylosin.Now animal biome team said to try S. Boulardii probiotic with tylosin for couple days and then i can stop tylosin and see how it goes. This is the 3rd day of Crowley not taking tylosin and there is no diarrhea, but the stool is good only in the morning, in the evening it’s soft and unformed which I’m not happy about but as long as it’s not diarrhea it works. He is not on full dose of S. Boulardii for his weight yet though, we’re going slow to not mess up. The gut restore pills we will start after he recovers from surgery.

At this point anything is better as long as he’s off antibiotics and no diarrhea.

Now about biopsy, I’m not sure if it’s needed, i asked for it not the vet. Only because I’m inpatient and want to know what’s wrong and how to fix it. We have a blood test before surgery tmr and will talk to the vet about bipsy but he still will be neutered on Friday, we wanted to combine 2 surgeries so he wouldn’t have to be under anesthesia/recover twice.

Can you tell me about the slightly cooked diet? How long should it be cooked for? And i know it should be organs not filet, right?

Also we are still stuck on the prescription food that we try to switch up but until he is stable and stool is good I’m simply scared to touch it because with every non prescription food we tried he went back to diarrhea within 3 weeks.
We tried nutri source (from breeder)
Purina pro plan sensitive skin and stomach with salmon and rice and everything else unfortunately was prescription food. I don’t like ingredients personally for any of those foods but that’s what i got recommended.
I’ve heard fromm is good and acana but haven’t tried them yet.

And yes i am planning on updating this thread as i myself read hundreds of similar ones trying to find an answer and hopefully will be able to help someone in the future with this information!

 

[strykerdobe]

That is some good news.

Sorry but what surgery's is he getting?

Look up Dr. Karen Becker, DVM

Dr Becker Cooked Dog Food Recipe • dog food advice​

Dr Becker Cooked Dog Food Recipe • dog food advice

Dec 12, 2017 - Explore cindy reed's board "Dr. Becker home made dog food recipes" on Pinterest. See more ideas about make dog food, dog

dogfood-advice.com

Oct 24, 2011 · Dr. Becker’s program provides a rotation of different meats and vegetables and strives to provide most nutrients as food. Meals are intended to be fed raw, but recipes may be …


Also Dr. Judy Morgan, DVM I think she also has recipes for cooked diets
www.frjudymorgan.com

Homemade Food for Dogs 101 with Dr. Judy Morgan DVM, CVA, CVFT, CVCP

With this online course you will learn how to make easy, tasty, and nutritious food for your dogs at home with expert help from Dr Judy Morgan.

www.drjudyu.com

 

[Wonka]

That is some good news.

Sorry but what surgery's is he getting?

Crowley will be neutered and possibly biopsy

 

[strykerdobe]

I would have to think very hard about surgery.
My personal opinion that he has been on antibiotics for so long that his Gut microbiome is very, very screwed up. Is there also something else causing the issue? This is out of my paygrade.
Tough decision but.
Yes, it would be a wise decision to have both done at the same time.

 

[Ddski5]

Is there an emergency to have him neutered?

I am in with @strykerdobe, I don’t think I would continue on with the surgery unless he has a complete good bill of health.

Your gut not only absorbs nutrition and pass excess out but it plays a vital roll with systemic recovery.

 

[Wonka]

I would have to think very hard about surgery.
My personal opinion that he has been on antibiotics for so long that his Gut microbiome is very, very screwed up. Is there also something else causing the issue? This is out of my paygrade.
Tough decision but.
Yes, it would be a wise decision to have both done at the same time.

We are moving in 2 months to a different state and want to get him neutered and recover/get back to normal before stressing him out with moving. I trust the vets here, and would want to get him neutered here as they know his whole history.
We are at the vet right now, will probably opt out of biopsy. His gut is messed up yes but antibiotics was the only thing that kept him from having constant diarrhea and losing weight rapidly so we didn’t have any other options. But now since probiotics are working we will hopefully forget about antibiotics for good and keep working on restoring his gut

 

[Wonka]

I would have to think very hard about surgery.
My personal opinion that he has been on antibiotics for so long that his Gut microbiome is very, very screwed up. Is there also something else causing the issue? This is out of my paygrade.
Tough decision but.
Yes, it would be a wise decision to have both done at the same time.

So we left the vet and I’m more confused than before.
This is the 3rd vet at the same clinic that we spoke to (the clinic that i like) and she kind of does recommend the biopsy because she is not sure it’s only bacteria that causing the problems in the gut because he also has skin issues when it’s hot (unknown bumps that come and go leaving bold spots) but she says it’s totally up to you because there is a person she can recommend in Ohio who is a nutritionist and could offer a lot of options to help. I’m no professional i just want my dog to be healthy so i read a lot and as much as i know skin issues are connected to the gut and could be because of dysbiosis. But most of the dysbiosis cases are fixed with probiotics that Crowley doesn’t react good to.

Plus on top of everything when i did dna testing for him we found out he has type 1 von willebrand disease so we did a test today and his blood did not clot within normal time it was 30 seconds over which is not bad bad but not normal. Tomorrow we will find out if he is even okay to undergo the surgery and we need to make a decision whether we want to do biopsy and neutering or look into MORE other options before doing the biopsy.
On one hand i do want the answers but on the other i’d do only neutering and explore other options and if nothing worked then do the biopsy as the last resort. There are too many what ifs and 0 facts.

The only thing i know for sure that this clinic is not chasing for money and offered to recommend us to other clinics many times

My husband and i are the inly ones who can make this decision but wth do i do?

 

[Kaiser2016]

but most of the dysbiosis cases are fixed with probiotics that Crowley doesn’t react good to.

Since the Animal Biome suggestions are working, is it possible to give this some more time? It can take months to become stable even on a new kibble. I know you're worried about the impact of moving, but why not let him continue with the Biome stuff until after the move? Then you have time to re-evaluate after assessing the Biome progress.

Plus on top of everything when i did dna testing for him we found out he has type 1 von willebrand disease so we did a test today and his blood did not clot within normal time it was 30 seconds over which is not bad bad but not normal. Tomorrow we will find out if he is even okay to undergo the surgery and we need to make a decision whether we want to do biopsy and neutering or look into MORE other options before doing the biopsy.

Doesn't sound like the biopsy is urgent, and unless your dog plays with other dogs and there's risk of him making puppies, then I'd delay the neuter too. I like the idea of only putting him under only the one time to take care of 'everything' if that's how it turns out.