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What is a King/Warlock Doberman?

Discussion in 'Doberman Talk and Discussions' started by Kawhi2222, Aug 25, 2019.

  1. Kawhi2222

    Kawhi2222 New Member

    Hey guys what is considered a Warlock/King Doberman and does anyone in here have one if so can I see some pictures?

     
  2. crypticintent

    crypticintent Hot Topics Subscriber

    That term is really only used by backyard breeders/those that aren’t worried about breed standard.

    Warlocks are bred for one purpose, size.
     
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  3. Tropicalbri's

    Tropicalbri's $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Warlocks are not really a breed. It was the name of an oversized Doberman that was used as a sire. He was Borong Warlock and because he was big the JQP thought it was a rare and spectacular Doberman. In reality it was the offspring of a dobe that was bred to a Great Dane or Rottie to get the extra size. BYB latched onto the name as a way to make money on their litters.
    Dobermanns were not meant to be giant dogs. They are a medium sized dog. The bigger dobes lose their speed, agility and maneuverability not to mention their joint problems and a shorter lifespan.
    Warlock Dobes are a myth that byb continue to use to make a buck. Steer clear of these types of breeders.
     
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  4. Kaiser2016

    Kaiser2016 Active Member

    Did someone see your Doberman and tell you about how they owned a warlock a few decades ago? I’ve had that happen. Just smile and nod lol.
     
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  5. Panama

    Panama Hot Topics Subscriber

    A myth

    I do believe Borong was a standard sized Doberman with a BIG presence.
     
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  6. Tropicalbri's

    Tropicalbri's $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I have never found his height or weight anywhere in all the years I have researched him. I would imagine though he would have to be within the standard to take his championship title with AKC.
     
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  7. Kawhi2222

    Kawhi2222 New Member

    All very interesting information, What lean weight is considered to big? Kawhis Dad is about 85lbs and his grandfather is larger. I heard the term king dobbie and I assumed it meant large but still a purebred?
     
  8. Kawhi2222

    Kawhi2222 New Member

    No but I’ve heard the term king Doberman mentioned about Kawhi. He’s 31lbs lean approaching 14 weeks!
     
  9. Panama

    Panama Hot Topics Subscriber

    I don't think I've ever seen actual measurements, but in just about all the articles about him they referred to him as "standard".
    Some of his get were believed to have been in TX and in the 70's started cross breeding in Rotties & Danes to get the GIANT size
     
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  10. Panama

    Panama Hot Topics Subscriber

    I had to find my girl's weight log, but here is her 14 wk entry:
    Nov 22, 2013/ 14 wks: 31 lbs (4.5 lb gain / 15.6)
     
  11. Kawhi2222

    Kawhi2222 New Member

    What does your girl weight today, if she don’t mind me asking lol.
     
  12. Panama

    Panama Hot Topics Subscriber

    She just turned 6 and averages 78-80 lbs. She is a big girl, but still only 26 1/4" at the withers.
     
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  13. Tropicalbri's

    Tropicalbri's $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I weighed my two today and Bogie was just over 84 and Bacall was a bit over 81.

    It’s been so hot that they are not getting the amount of exercise they have been accustomed to because of my job at the clinic. Time to put them back on the treadmill several times a week. Hubs keeps telling me they look perfect and that it’s muscle weight. I don’t agree with that but I also like a lean look. They could stand to lose a few pounds.
    52D51FBE-E6F2-4623-AE44-00671832B062.jpeg 3399CEDE-D487-4BAA-B76B-76AB3D3BD81B.jpeg
     
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  14. Gelcoater

    Gelcoater Expert ThreadCrapper $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    I don’t think it’s a myth, I think it was a very creative marketing strategy by someone who bred dogs outside of standard.
     
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  15. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    First a little about the dog sometimes credited for this myth

    BORONG THE WARLOCK
    [​IMG] we receive a call from someone wanting to purchase a giant "Warlock" Doberman quite frequently.
    Unfortunately for Borong The Warlock, he became a legend in Giant Form. There is no such thing as a Giant Warlock Doberman.. it is a backyard breeders MYTH.


    In reality Borong The Warlock was 1/2 German Dobermann and 1/2 American Doberman show dog, as such he had to be within the American AKC Breed Standard for size. The tallest he could have been was 28 inches, certainly not a Giant "Warlock Doberman", it has been reported to me that he was 27 1/2 inches tall at the shoulder.
    Unfortunately for Borong The Warlock he doesn't measure up to his own legend in SIZE.
    AKC SBW 590411
    5.1.1955 - 1966
    Male
    Colour: Black
    Sire: Astor v. Grenzweg Breed A Ohlbrock (Grenzweg kennel) Germany, Export U.S.A. AKC SBW 635696
    Dam: Florowil Allure AKC SBW 416546 U.S.A. - Can - Cuba CH.CD

    Breeder/Owner: Henry Frampton, AKC, CKC AND CUBAN CHAMPION BORONG THE WARLOCK, CD
    One of the most remarkable dogs in the history of the breed was for a long time the top-winning Doberman Pinscher of all time in this country. His name was Borong the Warlock, and he won his obedience degree in short order and his championship title in three countries.
    Owned by Henry G. and Theodosia Frampton of Miami, Florida, that magnificent animal was a living legend in his own time. His fantastic show career included 230 Best of Breed, 30 Specialty Show "bests," six all-breed Best in Show and 66 Working Groups! He was the only Doberman ever to have won the Doberman Pinscher club of America National Speciality Show three times, and in 1961 five Doberman specialists judged him Top in the breed in an annual Top Ten competition event. Needless to say, he was also one of the Top Ten in the Phillips System rating over a four-year span. In 1962, when he was eight year of age, he won the Penn-Jersey Dobermann Speciality for the third time and retired the Carl Muser Trophy which had been in competition since 1944.
    He was one of a litter of five champions, and he finished for his American title at just 13 months of age with four major wins. His obedience title was won in three straight shows.
    As a sire he also excelled, with 25 American champions to his credit, including three Best in Show winners. Obedience titlists were also among his offspring. His daughter, Ch. Jem's Amethyst v. Warlock, was the top-winning Doberman bitch for the year 1963.
    Warlock was know also for his temperament. He had always been housedog and constant companion to the Framtons and traveled with them everywhere (including airplane, train and ship) as a good will ambassador for the breed. He was a credit to his sire, Ch. Astor v. Grenzweg, C.D., and his dam, Ch. Florowill Allure, C.D.X.
    The Book of the Doberman Pinscher - Joan McDonald Brearley
     
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  16. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    And a little on the myth and how it's to believed to have started....

    The "Warlock" Myth
    BORONG THE WARLOCK
    by Jim Kearns
    Every field has its legends. In the entertainment world Elvis Presley has become a legend. Although he has been dead for a number of years, his popularity amongst many people has increased. Each year people spend more money on visiting his home Graceland in Memphis than Elvis usually earned in a year. There are many who still make a living impersonating him. There are stories constantly popping up in the supermarket newspapers stating that he is still alive. He has become a legend although many considered him just a better than average singer, actor, and entertainer.
    In the Dobe world, there is also a legend. His name is Borong the Warlock. It is not unusual for someone to call a Dobe club Breed Referral number and say, "I have this Warlock male. He is a fawn and one hundred and ten pounds. I want to breed him to a bitch that is strong and exceptional, preferably a Warlock bitch." Or for another caller to state, "My bitch is a Warlock but she is getting old, I would like to get another Warlock bitch." Members of many Dobe clubs report that they get calls very similar to the ones just described.
    In 1973, there was a person who lived in Pasadena, Texas who told people that her Dobes were Warlocks. She did a lot of breeding and sold her puppies to people who really did not know much about Dobes. The Dobes she bred were not exceptional and in some instances were rather poor specimens of the breed. That was more than twenty years ago!
    Was there a Warlock? If there was, why do people still use his name? Frank Grover in The Doberman Scribe, No. 7, in an article entitled "American Doberman Pinscher Legends" wrote about Borong the Warlock. Frank stated, "The Doberman who began the legend was born in Florida in the middle 1950's. His breeders were Theodosia and Henry Frampton. They named this pup Borong the Warlock."
    A warlock is a male witch, sorcerer, wizard or demon. Grover points out that the name did not describe Borong because he was a direct, rather quiet-mannered dog, well trained and never aggressive toward anyone nor other dogs.
    Borong was not picked as best in his litter. The pup adhered himself to Henry Frampton. Many thought that it was the pup that picked Henry rather than Henry picking the pup. When the pup grew up, Henry began to show Borong and he began winning. This was the beginning of what would go on for years.
    Borong came along at the right time. In the early 1950's, the Dobe world was dominated by Rancho Dobe's Storm, a back to back Best in Show winner at Westminster in 1952 and 1953. Storm was never beaten in the breed ring and he dominated Dobe publicity all over the nation. When Storm retired, exhibitors and judges foundered for a while. There were also many who resented Storm's successes and his popularity, and were looking for a different kind of Dobe. Borong fit the bill. He was clearly a different kind of Doberman. Grover states that breeder judges welcomed him. Forty years later, Storm's wins are history; Warlock's name is legend.
    Henry Frampton's business required that he travel a great deal around the country. He took Borong with him and showed him at shows that were near where his business appointments were. Borong was shown all over the country and became known. Henry was sociable and friendly. He talked to people and he told them of Borong's achievements. When Borong did not win Best in Breed at a show, Henry would tell the judge what Borong had accomplished and what he had won. He would do this politely and when he showed under the same judge again Borong would usually win.
    In 1957, Borong won Best in Breed at the DPCA National. Henry continued to show Borong. When jet travel began in 1959, Henry told people he could buy two first class seats, one for him and one for Borong. Henry also trained Borong in obedience and Ch. Borong the Warlock, CD, was the only male that went Best of Breed at the National with an obedience title. He went Best in Breed at three Nationals. Breeders eventually sought him out because they wanted winning pups. One of his daughters won the National. In his old age he won his first all-breed Best in Show. Many of the pups he sired in his later years established him as one of the fine sires of his time.
    Before Borong retired Henry Frampton took him to Germany where he competed against the top German Dobes. It was at a time when the German members of the breed were aggressive towards other dogs and judges. Borong was a quiet, well mannered Dobe without an enemy in the world. He came in second and Henry complained about this for a long time stating that the judging was done using temperament rather than the conformation of Borong.
    Borong's career ended when Henry Frampton died of a heart attack. It was not long after that Borong died. The many who knew how close Borong was to Henry thought the great Dobe died of grief over losing his human companion.
    The legends grew from his fame. His interesting name helped the growth of the legends. It is reported that the legends started in Texas where some of Borong's excellent descendants lived. People began to believe there were signs that identified a Dobe as a Warlock. The sign could be a lock of hair, a great size, small but powerful, a look in the eye, or something else. The name "Warlock" had an air of mystery about it and people began to see all sorts of signs that a Dobe was a Warlock descendant.
    In the 1970's, Doberman Pinschers began to experience a phenomenal increase in popularity. It was a period when people living in the suburbs began to discover that they were not safe from crime. The Doberman, according to the AKC, became the "watch dog of the moment". The "moment" lasted for years. The breed that traditionally ranked around 20th in annual AKC registrations moved up to 2nd in registrations by the early 1980s. Grover states, "When Dobermans were being bred by everyone and sold as ways to get rich quick, hundreds were sold in the underground as Warlocks, each with a secret sign of distinction and value known only to a few."
    The legend has been used by some to take money from people under false pretenses. It has been used by others to see what they would like to see. When all of that is stripped away, Borong the Warlock was a wonderful dog, an outstanding member of the breed, and an ambassador for all Dobermans with an unusual name. Most of all Borong was a great companion to his owner, Henry Frampton.
    Over the years Warlock has been associated with oversized Dobes. Dobe fanciers in Texas thought this was just a local phenomenon, but there have been reports that there are "Warlocks" in many other states. Because of their size, the "Warlocks" are not shown and have no connection to the original Borong the Warlock.
    There probably always will be breeders telling people their puppies are "Warlocks" so the name will live on. Regardless of their size and their pedigree or lack of pedigree, the Warlocks have one thing in common with the best of the Dobes in the show ring and that is they are loved by the people who own them. When one of them dies the owner will start looking for another Warlock.
    Copyright Jim Kearns
     
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  17. Viemarangelrock

    Viemarangelrock $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Anyone looking for a new family member, if a breeder you are considering uses this terminology they are not professional. Nonprofessional breeders that use this terminology have created a brand or urban legend that is very strong and effective at helping them to sell Dobermanns at a premium price.
     
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  18. princethedobie

    princethedobie New Member

    93DF135E-D730-40D9-8E59-82772159E50F.jpeg 64848951-EA52-41AC-9039-154D616D851A.jpeg 44848A3B-738B-4D40-9E0E-6FB68D362B78.jpeg
    Here’s some pictures of a kennel called king doberman kennel in Spain
     
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  19. Viemarangelrock

    Viemarangelrock $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

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  20. Ddski5

    Ddski5 Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    That looks to be a cross between Doberman, Rott, and Cane Corso.

    Do people not realize the bigger the dog the more health issues they have, let alone a shortened life span.....
     
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