What do you guys think of this Doberman?

Cferg

Notable member

I came across this video the other day the Doberman is around the one minute mark. I’ve seen on a previous video this dog was bought for a client as a personal protection dog from Eastern Europe. It’s so interesting the difference in breeds when you watch them back to back.

PS: I’ve heard that really fast Doberman bark before haha
 
Goofy. OCD (the spinning). Quite a bit stressed (wet dog shaking, lip licking, yawning). I don't have much experience watching many working dobermans early in their training but does he seem a bit nervy?
 
Yeah I think he’s probably a bit nervy. Some previous videos mentioned coming in from the dogs reactive side to light him up and get him active. I mean they are probably pushing that dog close to his limit pressure wise.
 
Agree. In the first few seconds of watching him my fingers wanted to type that very word: "Nervy". Darting looks, not real confident with his surroundings. Once he knew what he was going to do, he zeroed his focus on the decoy and had a nice deep bite/grip. He's obviously familiar with bite work, and if this was his first trip to that club/space, if he's a young dog, it could be forgiven and confidence built. But not anything I'd like to see if I was looking at him as a purchase or a stud prospect. I've seen too many walk into a new place with an air of owning it. Nerve like this is not attractive. I'll watch the rest of the video later to see the other breeds. Thanks for sharing -
 
Once he lit up on the agitator, I mostly like what I saw. Oji would do that spin move.

His obedience was crisp (though I wasn't listening to see if the handler had to repeat command) so that was impressive.

I did not like what I saw in his overall carrying of himself. His look was one of fearfulness. That low slinking along looks fearful and submissive, although I realize it may actually be him denying himself other urges in order to comply with the heel command. Neither of my working Dobermans carried themselves like that. They stood/walked tall. Yes, they were balls of energy and their head was snapping this way and that in alertness (I never wanted them to do that walk along staring at my face thing), and with Oji at least, his stress manifested itself in barking. If I had him on a heel when he was driven to do something else, he'd just start barking while complying. If I told him "enough" (stop vocalizing) he would often take it as a release from the command he was following. Grrrrr. I don't want to level any sort of false accusation, but it does make me wonder if this Dobe has been trained with too much compulsion to where it crouches and slinks like that. It may just be his natural reaction to stress though.

Yes, nervy. The shaking as though wet, etc.
 
Oji would do that spin move.
I don't count the spinning as bad. Spinning might be more of excitement building & needing an outlet. I do see many, many working dogs especially mals, duchies, border collies spin when are amped up. That can be trained out as they do more & more obedience & learn self control. High drive is fine, that fearful look is not. I'll be curious to know if he works out. With good training and confidence building he may be fine. But there's sure something about him I don't care for.
 
Agree. In the first few seconds of watching him my fingers wanted to type that very word: "Nervy". Darting looks, not real confident with his surroundings. Once he knew what he was going to do, he zeroed his focus on the decoy and had a nice deep bite/grip. He's obviously familiar with bite work, and if this was his first trip to that club/space, if he's a young dog, it could be forgiven and confidence built. But not anything I'd like to see if I was looking at him as a purchase or a stud prospect. I've seen too many walk into a new place with an air of owning it. Nerve like this is not attractive. I'll watch the rest of the video later to see the other breeds. Thanks for sharing -
This guy breeds GSD’S and also buys them from Europe along with mostly Mals. He sales PP dogs and K9s, but a client must’ve asked for a Doberman. So on a buying trip to Europe he bought this dog with the intent of training and selling it to a specific client. From the first videos he put up of the dog I wasn’t completely turned off on the dog but I wasn’t impressed either. And to be fair I think the dog is only around a year old give or take a couple of months. Also from some of the other videos you can tell the dog isn’t a prey monster so going the other route is more than likely a slower process.
 
Stassi’s nerve excitement release is to bounce shoulder high and check me. Never puts her paws on me just a bounce shoulder check from my heel side.
 
He sales PP dogs and K9s, but a client must’ve asked for a Doberman. So on a buying trip to Europe he bought this dog with the intent of training and selling it to a specific client. From the first videos he put up of the dog I wasn’t completely turned off on the dog but I wasn’t impressed either.
I'll be curious to know if he works out. With good training and confidence building he may be fine. But there's sure something about him I don't care for.
So from what I've read about nervy dobermans (or any working breed) is that they'll work if you just want a great display of threat but when pressured will fall apart. Whether that be high level IGP or real world. I agree I didn't like the constant head snaps at every movement or noise and slinking behavior. I did go back to when they got him and he was fairly young looking in the video so I'd be surprised if this is due to a lack of training and not genetics. I'd expect in the ~6 months where he is in their program that he'd be better adapted that building (which he has been in before and I'm guessing every training session).

I don't count the spinning as bad. Spinning might be more of excitement building & needing an outlet. I do see many, many working dogs especially mals, duchies, border collies spin when are amped up. That can be trained out as they do more & more obedience & learn self control.
Revel spins his excitement out which is why I noticed it right away. It is often an OCD thing and we all know OCD behaviors can be common in dobes We had to use an ecollar to put a stop to it or he'll create a new solar system. :rolleyes:
 
I love Haz, but holy cow does he hate dobermans lol. He claims they are softer dogs than shepherds and he hates their lack of attention span. I have to wonder, since he breeds his own shepherds, that he might purposely ruin that doberman to turn other people off to them and he doesn't have to start a doberman line for his business.

I have been following him for awhile, and while I think he's decent, I think some of the other people he has spoken to and had on his channel are better. Fallen Star is one kennel, see their dog "Lucifer" and compare that monster to Haz's dogs. His main focus right now is Gauge (Gage?) and even Haz says his dog is great in training but is "loosey-goosey" on the field. Mace is a Dutch shepherd that he trained and sold to a client that was experienced with Dutch shepherds.

That client was attacked by Mace and had critical injuries. Mace was returned to Haz, trained some more and then sold again. If Dutch shepherds are so reactive they attack their handlers and are known for it, as well as belgian malinois... how are they better than dobermans? German shepherds I guess are better about not destroying the person on the right side of the leash and Haz has advocated for German Shepherds over Mals and Dutchies. I haven't had experience with shepherds and unless they get a short, single coat version of them I never will because I know I will never spend that much time or money grooming a dog.

Anyway, Haz is very entertaining to watch and I love his rants about things, but if I was looking to send Flint to someone for personal protection training I wouldn't touch Shield K9 with a 50ft pole. Sorry Haz.

As for Victor... yeah Flint has more balls than that guy and I saw proof of this when he was 4 months old. The only thing that scares my little crackhead are border collies for some reason. Not men, not women, not XL American bullies, not mastiffs, not other dobermans... border collies. My husband joked that he was just a "typical man" and would rather risk getting his throat ripped out rather than his ego bruised (going off the conversation that border collies typically outperformed dobermans in agility and made them look really bad at it).
 
I love Haz, but holy cow does he hate dobermans lol. He claims they are softer dogs than shepherds and he hates their lack of attention.
I gotta agree with him about the attention apart. My dog recently has really developed a case of ADD. In the backyard she can be in an in drive focused heel, then a bird flys over and she’ll catch it out of the corner of her eye. And it’s like she forgets where she’s at or what she’s supposed to be doing. I’m not saying that I can’t stop her and make some adjustments or corrections on my end, but damn it’s apparent the short attention span is inherently there.
 
I gotta agree with him about the attention apart. My dog recently has really developed a case of ADD. In the backyard she can be in an in drive focused heel, then a bird flys over and she’ll catch it out of the corner of her eye. And it’s like she forgets where she’s at or what she’s supposed to be doing. I’m not saying that I can’t stop her and make some adjustments or corrections on my end, but damn it’s apparent the short attention span is inherently there.

I don't see this as a fault, if you think about what dobermans were bred to do. They don't perform like shepherds because they aren't shepherds, and in my opinion we should stop trying to make them perform to shepherd "standards".

A shepherd is a sheep herder/protector originally. That psychopathic laser beam focus is great for paying attention to a herd of sheep and watching for if one thinks it's going to pull a fast one and try to break away from the herd. Shepherds may have to do this for very long periods of time, so having "ADD" would be very undesirable. You might lose a nice tight sheep formation this way.

Dobermans, on the other hand, were created to be effective personal protection dogs and nothing else. What happens to a military unit that hyper focuses on only one spot? Ambush. Injury. Death. Thats why we train our soldiers to be hyper vigilant and always scanning their surroundings. Why should an effective protection dog be any different? Scanning for threats is a good thing. Being aware of "Oh! Movement!" is beneficial in legit life/death scenarios. Hyper focused laser fixation is not.

I personally don't care about a little "ADD" as long as my doberman is brave enough to protect me, as the breed's creator intended.

I could probably sneak up on a guy with a focused shepherd, but I'm not so sure I could sneak up on a doberman.
 
Personal protection for real, not for sport, is a whole different ballgame. My humble opinion, they are great watchdogs, but few have the nerve to "bark forward" and take pressure.
had to use an ecollar to put a stop to it or he'll create a new solar system.
I had to hit "funny" when I read that. Almost spewed my coffee. :rofl:

from what I've read about nervy dobermans (or any working breed) is that they'll work if you just want a great display of threat but when pressured will fall apart. Whether that be high level IGP or real world.
I've seen several GSDs that had this nervy look, one was a pet and a bad bad fear-biter. Bit anyone who got close except for the owner. Owner thought it was "protective". It was a disaster. The other was about 7-8 months old at an IGP training, a nervous looking puppy. They were wanting him to experience different people offering play (because that's how the tug and eventually the sleeve are presented - as play). Since the dog had never met me they asked if I'd offer the tug to play and I said sure. The handler gave me a tug and I barely bent forward and wiggled it at him and the pup came unglued lunged at me barking then ran backwards barking. He was a total nerve bag and had no play about him whatsoever. He did go on to get an IGP1 I think, but was what I thought very unreliable and totally unstable. Sometimes when they "fall apart" due to nerve it's not running away, it's in unpredictable fear biting. A different IGP3 GSD lunged at and almost bit the judge in his tracking review. Level 3! The judge was nice enough to give the handler a minute to re-group with his dog, approach again for the review, and again the dog lunged hard at the judge, who was just standing there with his clipboard. He was DQ'd and can't trial again until he passes another BH. I don't know anything about the dog if he was just having a really bad day or if he's always a trigger away from biting someone.

If Dutch shepherds are so reactive they attack their handlers and are known for it, as well as belgian malinois... how are they better than dobermans?
Those two breeds (basically come from the same stock generations back, one just has stripes) are incredibly intelligent and they are natural biters. We've all seen those videos of mal puppies hanging like ticks on someones pants legs. Like border collies, they think and act fast, they want to please and they want/need a job. If you get a bitey dog with tons of drive, you better have the energy to keep up with them and a step ahead. The dutch that lives here will come up the leash if she thinks you're being unfair, but is the most kind loving dog on the planet, never met a stranger. My dog is totally opposite, acts like she'd kill a stranger, but no matter what I do or how hard I've had to be to her in training, she's absolutely never had a thought of biting me. GSDs are all over the board, I don't know them well, but I've never met one that made me want one. Even the best of the best working dogs with a decent personality off the field, or the best of the best pet GSDs, I just don't care for them. Or the hair. The hair would make me scream.

It's all apples and oranges. A mal is different than a GSD by miles, but they are both herders. A Dobe is like neither one so no sense in comparing. I think if you're seeing Mals and Dutches "being known" for attacking their handlers, it's just like Dobermans back in their popular days: Bad breeding because they got popular and it was a money-maker and pet owners getting them because they are "cool" dogs, not having a clue how to train or handle them. A recipe for disaster.

Just remember, there is a reason you don't see many Dobermans in bite sports or as police K9's or in the military any more. For the most part they just don't cut it. When they do it's because they have a trainer who totally knows how to deal with their personalities and thinking, because they don't train like herders do. And especially decoys or helpers. Edit to add: when they do they also are almost always bred specifically for working in addition to having a knowledgeable trainer/decoy/handler.

Hopefully today I can watch the rest of that video and also you said there are previous clips of this Doberman as a youngster?
 
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Here’s a previous video of the dog.

Speaking of nerves in sport dogs and still being able to achieve success on the field. I read somewhere about a very prominent male GSD, I’m talking world level IGP. That is in tons of pedigrees, but is absent from the podium pictures of trials he wins because he won’t climb stairs. So make with that what you will. I’m saying this not as a judgement, it just shows what a lot of peoples goals are in breeding and buying a dog to compete in sport with. It doesn’t matter to some what the dog is like off the field. Does he win on the field?
 
Stassi’s nerve excitement release is to bounce shoulder high and check me. Never puts her paws on me just a bounce shoulder check from my heel side.
This would be cool, I sure would like to see this.

love Haz, but holy cow does he hate dobermans lol. He claims they are softer dogs than shepherds and he hates their lack of attention span.
Yeah, could tell by his departing remark of “that’s a typical Doberman”….
no interest, just going through the motions of a job.

I don't see this as a fault, if you think about what dobermans were bred to do. They don't perform like shepherds because they aren't shepherds, and in my opinion we should stop trying to make them perform to shepherd "standards".
Dobermans, on the other hand, were created to be effective personal protection dogs and nothing else. What happens to a military unit that hyper focuses on only one spot? Ambush. Injury. Death. Thats why we train our soldiers to be hyper vigilant and always scanning their surroundings. Why should an effective protection dog be any different? Scanning for threats is a good thing. Being aware of "Oh! Movement!" is beneficial in legit life/death scenarios. Hyper focused laser fixation is not.
Reading through all this…this is exactly what I was thinking.

I really can’t compare though because I’ve never had a legit GS- really don’t want all that hair.
 
I watched that first video again now that I'm not at work and can actually give it my full attention. I don't have experience in anything other than training basic obedience and loose leash walking on a lab (she was an incredible dog, saved my younger brothers from a GSD/Rott mix and a feral hog with no hesitation at all), but that doberman does seem legitimately broken.

Flint hasn't had protection training or any unnecessary pressure put on him, but he doesn't look like that at all going to new places, meeting new people or new dogs. He strides in with confidence like he owns the place when we go somewhere new. I took him on an elevator at work just to see how he handled it. He put his nose to the ground and probably cleared the floor of any dust the housekeepers may have missed, but he never startled at the elevator doors closing, the upward movement, the noises, nothing at all.

There is nothing special about Flint, at least on paper or pedigree. His sire's side is all American show Champs and his dam's side is a hodge-podge mix of American and European dogs. I haven't noticed any sign of separation anxiety so far and if he does startle at something, he recovers and investigates immediately. We've taken him shooting with us and never saw him flinch or pace or look jumpy. He is still under 6 months old. My point is why does Viktor look like he is expecting pain at the drop of a hat? Working line Euro maybe, but from where? He doesn't seem like a good one.

I'd love for someone to tell me why my pet doberman isn't a frantic spazz ball and that euro working line dog is.
 
a lot of peoples goals are in breeding and buying a dog to compete in sport with. It doesn’t matter to some what the dog is like off the field. Does he win on the field?
Yup. In horses, dogs or people... whatever it takes to win, the hell with the rest. Hopefully it's a handful of dogs, most that I read about are pretty honest about having a good dog all around. Some are impossible in anything other than on the field so they live in a crate. For 99% of us (here on Doberman Chat) that's a deal breaker because living with the dog is first and trialing is second.
Flint hasn't had protection training or any unnecessary pressure put on him
And he shouldn't at his age! Keep everything fun at this age! "protection" is developing prey drive, chasing the flirt pole or playing tug and winning winning winning. Zero pressure, never let them think they can lose.

if he does startle at something, he recovers and investigates immediately. We've taken him shooting with us and never saw him flinch or pace or look jumpy. He is still under 6 months old. My point is why does Viktor look like he is expecting pain at the drop of a hat? Working line Euro maybe, but from where? He doesn't seem like a good one.
Your puppy is showing good nerve. Nice introductions to harmless things like elevators is perfect. Since we don't know Viktor, maybe it's just his "normal" hyper look and he's not fearful. Maybe he's a nerve bag. We can't judge him because we don't honestly known him. I take these things with a grain of salt. Also the best bred show dogs will have a litter with 2 or 3 champions out of a litter of 6 or 8. Same with working lines. Not all the puppies will "have it". So lines & breeding are important, but not 100% reliable. Do we know his name & pedigree?
 
Yes, that's what the working breeders I've known do.
I know there are some, but I think Doberman working breeders in the US are more in tune with a more rounded dog. The big kennels in Europe are titling dogs just enough to put in the breeding shed. It's a fine line with working dogs to be too sharp to live with but be brilliant on the field. I do understand it and it goes with every sport including conformation. Not the too sharp thing, just being live-with-able in ways outside the ring. Again, a big flag to do research before purchasing, and looking at the lines that are influencing your puppy. I don't remember what dog or person it was, but somebody said "They said an IGP3 dog doesn't sleep in the bed with you. Well, mine does." It was a Doberman. LOL.
 

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