No matter what we do, or how well we train, we always have the genetics playing their own role. You can manage genetics, but you can't train them out completely. @Oh Little Oji - that mention of Livestock Guardian breeds made me think of you and your quest... Basically this was a message meant for people who picked up cute fluffies at the animal shelter and found themselves with a dog that was out of control, but to me it's a good reminder for those of us who chose the Doberman, we are not choosing the easiest dog, especially during their first couple of years!