Stacking advice and critique

You can always get a crossover point and therefore crossover major from the bitches by winning best of winners.
So if winners bitch was 2 points and winners dog 1, would that make BOW get 3 points? Or is that not how it works? I’m still trying to grasp the point system lol.
 
So if winners bitch was 2 points and winners dog 1, would that make BOW get 3 points? Or is that not how it works? I’m still trying to grasp the point system lol.
BOW would get 2 points. So if WD was only 1 points and WB was a 4 point major and the WD went WD/BOW the WB would get a 4 point major AND the WD would get a 4 point major.
 
BOW would get 2 points. So if WD was only 1 points and WB was a 4 point major and the WD went WD/BOW the WB would get a 4 point major AND the WD would get a 4 point major.
Thank you for explaining!
 
A little bit of an update! We planned to do a B Match show earlier this month, but of course the day before we were supposed to leave I woke up super sick.

We finally went to handling class tonight! We only got to go once when Remy was about 4.5 months old. (This class was held by the kennel club, not the training club we went to previously.) I was worried he might be a bit distracted by the other dogs, but he wasn’t at all! Him and another dog were super interested in the smells there though. It was held outdoors and they just had a 3 day agility trial there, so I’m sure there was a lot to want to sniff.

Everyone there really loved him and gave him a ton of complements! The club secretary said she said been considering Dobermans and Remy solidified that for her lol. They really liked his temperament too and said they had a few Dobermans come previously that weren’t very well behaved. He’s definitely not perfect all of the time, but I’m glad he gave them a more positive impression of Dobes.

I believe it was the president or VP who went over him and gave me some feedback. She really liked his bone and muscling, also complemented his feet and short nails lol. She said the only “negative” things she could point out was that his tail was slightly short and that she would “almost like to see more weight on him.” I’m curious about what you guys think on that since Dobes aren’t her breed (not trying to discredit her opinion here). I’ve never heard that his tail was too short and I see them in varying lengths, so honestly I’m not sure if she’s right or not. Although she did say it wasn’t a big deal. Also for the weight, I can never tell if he’s the ideal weight. I struggle finding the right balance for the amount of calories and exercise so he does fluctuant a little. I’ll attach two pictures from tonight.

He does have a habit of pacing that we’ve been trying to work on (it’s his biggest issue). He did pace the majority of the time (even when two other people ran with him 🤦🏼‍♀️), but when he did move correctly they said he looked great. It’s a little annoying because he’ll trot when out for a walk or running on his own. I know his collar is too big and they said getting the correct size might help too. How much bigger should it be than his neck size? She also had us try out a martingale style collar/lead combo to give more head control. I don’t really see this used on Dobermans, so I’m wondering if it’s worth buying one to try out more? Two different people touched him for the exam and he did fairly good with that too!

Overall it was a great experience and I’m excited to go back next week!
 

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I think his condition looks really good and so does his tail. I do not like too long a crop on this breed and overweight doesn't look good either.
 
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Super to hear they started back up again!



When does he pace? The down and back, go around, or all of the above?

The last picture/still I saw of him, his weight looked FINE. I would not want him heavier than this. He looks super here and he's barely over a year old! My only critique, as of now, is his neck tie in could be a little smoother into shoulders but that will likely change as he fills in with muscle there as he continues to mature. A little smoother neck tie in into his front. Being nit picky now (lol) I'd shave a sliver of his brow bone to flatten it more so his head plane is more parallel to the nose plane.
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The tail is to be docked at the second joint as stated in the standard. I think its really being nit picky to pick on tail length, as long as it is close to that. Its silly to worry about tail length as it has no effect on his actual conformation. As I've learned, its difficult to always get tail docks perfect. His looks completely fine and not too short.
Tail docked at approximately second joint, appears to be a continuation of the spine, and is carried only slightly above the horizontal when the dog is alert.
 
Super to hear they started back up again!
Me too! It’s been 10 months since this club had handling classes, so I was starting to think they weren’t going to start again.
When does he pace? The down and back, go around, or all of the above?
I guess it depends, but it could any of these. Sometimes when we practice he does good and hardly paces at all, other times he hardly trots. I can’t seem to figure out the rhyme or reason.

I would say for the down and back if he paces it’s when we are going “down”, 90% of the times we go “back” he trots. I’ve tried turning him beforehand and it doesn’t always help, but today they mentioned to take a wider turn, start off slow then go into a jog. That seemed to help a few times but not others. The go around is hit or miss. I find that starting quicker then slowing down into a trot helps sometimes.

Gaiting seems to be the hardest thing for me to get right. He trots running around the house, sometimes during heeling, usually when he walks ahead (on leash), etc so I’m not sure why I have such a hard time with it?
The last picture/still I saw of him, his weight looked FINE. I would not want him heavier than this. He looks super here and he's barely over a year old!
That was about a month ago I think. He’s a little thinner now. I will say that I feel like he tends to look heavier from the side than when viewed from above.

I’ll add a picture from Monday. Of course I stacked him in front of a black car though so it’s hard to really see anything. He’s a bit overstretched in the rear and maybe the front foot could come back a little.
My only critique, as of now, is his neck tie in could be a little smoother into shoulders but that will likely change as he fills in with muscle there as he continues to mature. A little smoother neck tie in into his front. Being nit picky now (lol) I'd shave a sliver of his brow bone to flatten it more so his head plane is more parallel to the nose plane.
I agree with both of these things and they are the two things I’d change if it could lol!
The tail is to be docked at the second joint as stated in the standard. I think its really being nit picky to pick on tail length, as long as it is close to that. Its silly to worry about tail length as it has no effect on his actual conformation. As I've learned, its difficult to always get tail docks perfect. His looks completely fine and not too short.
That’s what I thought. She mentioned it 2 or 3 times so it got me wondering lol, especially because that was the only thing she found to be “wrong” about him. I’ve seen some very short tails, like they looked almost flush to the body, and I know his isn’t that short.
 

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I found a top view picture that was taken 2 days before the stacked picture you added. This is what I meant when I said he tends to look heavier when viewed from the side lol. I think his weight in this picture was probably just a touch heavier than he is now. DC073F1D-940B-466E-945B-ED6559DCA11E.jpeg
 
I would say for the down and back if he paces it’s when we are going “down”, 90% of the times we go “back” he trots. I’ve tried turning him beforehand and it doesn’t always help, but today they mentioned to take a wider turn, start off slow then go into a jog. That seemed to help a few times but not others. The go around is hit or miss. I find that starting quicker then slowing down into a trot helps sometimes.
Are you looking at him when you start off? Try focusing ahead and then once he gets going take a glance down at him to make sure he's trotting, see if that helps. Some dogs feel that pressure and pace.... turds lol. Another option is (in practice at home) do circles. Get him excited and hyped up, bait above his head to encourage his head to stay up and say "trot". Keep kissing to him like you would a horse to encourage them to move out. Once he starts trotting heavy heavy praise (I'd toss bait forward onto the ground vs bringing it to his mouth from your hand). You'll get a little dizzy so be careful lol. Then in class and at shows, do this circle as a warm up to get him moving then once you complete the circle, move out the direction you want to go.


I found a top view picture that was taken 2 days before the stacked picture you added
Honestly, he's a baby. The weight will come through as muscle. As long as he has good covering on his ribs and no fat rolls over the hips or base of the neck, he's likely fine. That mid section will thicken up as he matures. He has really good substance and muscling for his age and it will only get better. Stavros looks the same from above. Kinda waspy
 
Are you looking at him when you start off?
This may be part of the problem. I think I do tend to look at him a lot. I will try to remember not to look at him when we take off and see if that helps!
Another option is (in practice at home) do circles. Get him excited and hyped up, bait above his head to encourage his head to stay up and say "trot". Keep kissing to him like you would a horse to encourage them to move out. Once he starts trotting heavy heavy praise (I'd toss bait forward onto the ground vs bringing it to his mouth from your hand).
I’ve started praising whenever I see him trotting now. Anyone who happens to hear me as I walk past must think I’m crazy 😂. “Yes! Good trot!” lol. I do think it is helping a little though.
Honestly, he's a baby. The weight will come through as muscle. As long as he has good covering on his ribs and no fat rolls over the hips or base of the neck, he's likely fine. That mid section will thicken up as he matures. He has really good substance and muscling for his age and it will only get better. Stavros looks the same from above. Kinda waspy
I think that’s part of the reason why it’s hard for me to gauge his weight. Sometimes I feel like he looks a little chubby from the side but not from the top so it throws me off.
 
I know his collar is too big and they said getting the correct size might help too. How much bigger should it be than his neck size? She also had us try out a martingale style collar/lead combo to give more head control. I don’t really see this used on Dobermans, so I’m wondering if it’s worth buying one to try out more?
Oops sorry, didn't respond to this question! I never see martingales on dobermans. Not that you couldn't use them but you would stick out as a handler. Usually a black hermsprenger slip chain is nice for black and young males (snip the metal tag off). Some like flat link slip chains. Though once trained, you can use something fancier and thinner like a snake chain or thinner slip chain if you want.

The length is really down to the handler. I like to have enough to work with to be able to put the o ring on the opposite side of the neck and the rest of collar that is attached to the lead then slipped back under the chin and up the handler side of the head. This kinda pushes the dog into you as you pull on the lead vs them pulling away from you if the o ring was on the handler side. Enough length to let the weight of the excess collar hang down sort of holds the collar on the neck behind the ears too when you free stack.

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Plus, you want enough to be comfortable for when you bait the neck. Here's a visual about how much collar is typical when baiting the neck.
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Best advice I have is to go to a show and find one of the many vendors that sells show collars and try out the different lengths and types right there by stacking him and baiting, then also free stack him to see how they feel!
 
A little bit of an update! We planned to do a B Match show earlier this month, but of course the day before we were supposed to leave I woke up super sick.

We finally went to handling class tonight! We only got to go once when Remy was about 4.5 months old. (This class was held by the kennel club, not the training club we went to previously.) I was worried he might be a bit distracted by the other dogs, but he wasn’t at all! Him and another dog were super interested in the smells there though. It was held outdoors and they just had a 3 day agility trial there, so I’m sure there was a lot to want to sniff.

Everyone there really loved him and gave him a ton of complements! The club secretary said she said been considering Dobermans and Remy solidified that for her lol. They really liked his temperament too and said they had a few Dobermans come previously that weren’t very well behaved. He’s definitely not perfect all of the time, but I’m glad he gave them a more positive impression of Dobes.

I believe it was the president or VP who went over him and gave me some feedback. She really liked his bone and muscling, also complemented his feet and short nails lol. She said the only “negative” things she could point out was that his tail was slightly short and that she would “almost like to see more weight on him.” I’m curious about what you guys think on that since Dobes aren’t her breed (not trying to discredit her opinion here). I’ve never heard that his tail was too short and I see them in varying lengths, so honestly I’m not sure if she’s right or not. Although she did say it wasn’t a big deal. Also for the weight, I can never tell if he’s the ideal weight. I struggle finding the right balance for the amount of calories and exercise so he does fluctuant a little. I’ll attach two pictures from tonight.

He does have a habit of pacing that we’ve been trying to work on (it’s his biggest issue). He did pace the majority of the time (even when two other people ran with him 🤦🏼‍♀️), but when he did move correctly they said he looked great. It’s a little annoying because he’ll trot when out for a walk or running on his own. I know his collar is too big and they said getting the correct size might help too. How much bigger should it be than his neck size? She also had us try out a martingale style collar/lead combo to give more head control. I don’t really see this used on Dobermans, so I’m wondering if it’s worth buying one to try out more? Two different people touched him for the exam and he did fairly good with that too!

Overall it was a great experience and I’m excited to go back next week!
Ok I don’t know anything about this, but his tail looks perfect! I prefer the shorter tail, I’m assuming that’s how it should be? Peppers is shorter believe it’s at the second joint as well. I’m not a fan of the long docked ones looks odd to me.

And Remy looks perfect! Seriously a good looking Doberman!
 
I'm not show savvy at all, but Remy has an absolute perfect tail. And what @Rits said, I don't think it's even judged on it's too long or too short, although since it's all opinion a judge could certainly make a final decision of over all "look" with a tail that was too short or long. But it's the bone structure angle ( 1 or 2 o'clock? @Rits?) that you want to see and I see that in Remy. So it's weird that it was even brought up and also that she critiqued something you can't fix and dock length is not hereditary! 🙃 I'm a big fan of slim dogs, so another vote saying his weight looks good. Extra weight looks terrible on our breed.

I don't know enough to give you advise - just have fun and enjoy. You are so lucky to have a group to help you, and to be able to check in here to get feedback for Dobe-specific advice from @Rits!

I like to have enough to work with to be able to put the o ring on the opposite side of the neck and the rest of collar that is attached to the lead then slipped back under the chin and up the handler side of the head. This kinda pushes the dog into you as you pull on the lead vs them pulling away from you if the o ring was on the handler side. Enough length to let the weight of the excess collar hang down sort of holds the collar on the neck behind the ears too when you free stack.
Humph! Nobody ever told me this! I'll have to try it. I do have the black slip chain from HS, and reluctantly snipped off the orange tag for when I did Rally Novice. But I didn't know there was a way to tuck the ring on the other side from me for stacking... hmmm. 'course I won't ever show, but I still want a nice photo some day of Asha in a good stack.
 
I never see martingales on dobermans. Not that you couldn't use them but you would stick out as a handler.
That’s what I thought. I’ve only seen nylon slip collars used on a few Dobes, but never a martingale.
The length is really down to the handler. I like to have enough to work with to be able to put the o ring on the opposite side of the neck and the rest of collar that is attached to the lead then slipped back under the chin and up the handler side of the head. This kinda pushes the dog into you as you pull on the lead vs them pulling away from you if the o ring was on the handler side. Enough length to let the weight of the excess collar hang down sort of holds the collar on the neck behind the ears too when you free stack.

View attachment 144854
I feel like his has about that much “extra” chain. I’ll still try out a slightly smaller one and see if it helps any. One of the times were it feels too big is when I go to show the bite. I like to hold my hand through the collar to hold his head (hopefully that makes sense) and it feels like there is just too much extra collar to hold.
Best advice I have is to go to a show and find one of the many vendors that sells show collars and try out the different lengths and types right there by stacking him and baiting, then also free stack him to see how they feel!
I’m pretty sure the place we do group classes at sells show chains, so I’ll look tomorrow while we are there!
Ok I don’t know anything about this, but his tail looks perfect! I prefer the shorter tail, I’m assuming that’s how it should be? Peppers is shorter believe it’s at the second joint as well. I’m not a fan of the long docked ones looks odd to me.
I feel the same. There seems to be a slight range of “normal” but when the tail is obviously too long it just doesn’t look right.
And Remy looks perfect! Seriously a good looking Doberman!
Thank you! ❤️
I'm not show savvy at all, but Remy has an absolute perfect tail. And what @Rits said, I don't think it's even judged on it's too long or too short, although since it's all opinion a judge could certainly make a final decision of over all "look" with a tail that was too short or long. But it's the bone structure angle ( 1 or 2 o'clock? @Rits?) that you want to see and I see that in Remy. So it's weird that it was even brought up and also that she critiqued something you can't fix and dock length is not hereditary! 🙃
I thought it was a kind of odd comment too. She even said it wasn’t something that would really be critiqued, so I’m not sure why it was brought up more than once. 🤷🏼‍♀️
I'm a big fan of slim dogs, so another vote saying his weight looks good. Extra weight looks terrible on our breed.
Thanks! I knew you guys would have a better idea of what a correct weight for him would be. I know a lot of people have this idea of Dobermans being 100+ pound dogs, which is kind of funny since the standard describes them as being medium and compact in size.
I don't know enough to give you advise - just have fun and enjoy. You are so lucky to have a group to help you, and to be able to check in here to get feedback for Dobe-specific advice from @Rits!
Yes! I’m super appreciate to everyone here!
'course I won't ever show, but I still want a nice photo some day of Asha in a good stack.
That’s pretty much how I started 😂 I wanted to see what he “looked like as a show dog” when he was about 3 months old and now here we are.
 
I'll take a video or pic of how Derek holds the collar for the bite and the trick about having the o ring on opposite side of head. I know visuals help and there's not enough out there for confo! It'll probably be sometime later this weekend. Nosework class tonight and IGP meet tomorrow starting at 8am with tracking 🥶
 
I'll take a video or pic of how Derek holds the collar for the bite and the trick about having the o ring on opposite side of head. I know visuals help and there's not enough out there for confo! It'll probably be sometime later this weekend. Nosework class tonight and IGP meet tomorrow starting at 8am with tracking 🥶
Thank you so much and no rush! Yeah, it’s definitely hard to find videos or even pictures for a lot of little things like this.

Have fun at class! I almost want to try IGP because of the tracking (I think Remy would love it), but I don’t know if I have enough time or money to be getting involved with all these sports at once 🤣
 
I almost want to try IGP because of the tracking (I think Remy would love it),
If you have a club nearby it would be feasible - it's the traveling time & expense that caught up with me. Also AKC has tracking/trailing, but I think it's hard to find instructors/classes and trials. I'm finding that Dobermans are way under represented as nose dogs. Every one I've seen doing it LOVES it!
 
If you have a club nearby it would be feasible - it's the traveling time & expense that caught up with me. Also AKC has tracking/trailing, but I think it's hard to find instructors/classes and trials. I'm finding that Dobermans are way under represented as nose dogs. Every one I've seen doing it LOVES it!
There is one about 45-60 minutes away, which isn’t bad considering we don’t have a lot of training options besides basic obedience stuff nearby. They are an all breed club and it looks like they work/have worked with a few Dobermans too.

I know there is more to IGP than tracking and this may a silly question, but are you expected to have a certain level of obedience before starting, or do they help you get there? I’m mostly referring to focused heeling. He has a good “casual” heel, but I’m working on getting better engagement for rally/obedience.

I looked into AKC tracking a bit but couldn’t really find anything. When I tried to look for trials I’m not sure if there were even any in NC or SC.
 

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